Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts

[Pckfn23]

Seasons we have given up under 4.3 a carry since 1990:
1991 - 3.4
1993 - 3.7
1994 - 3.6
1995 - 4.1
1996 - 3.5
1997 - 4.2
1998 - 3.7
1999 - 3.8
2000 - 3.9
2003 - 4.1
2005 - 4.0
2006 - 4.1
2007 - 3.9
2009 - 3.6
2016 - 4.0
2017 - 3.9

[LombardiTime]

I thought they were actually pretty good at stopping the run last year, one of many reasons why the present catastrophe on D has been so weird.

You are correct, they were #10 against the run in 2021...

By what measure? Rush yards allowed per game? According to NFL.com, the Packers defense had the 4th fewest rush attempts against them. I suppose by that measure they damn well should look good...but it wasn't because they were actually good at stopping the run.

The real tell is yards allowed/attempt. By that measure, the Packer defense allowed 4.7 yds/att and ranked 30th of 32 teams. Eww.

Yeah, I tried to say I thought last year's rush defense benefitted by the play of the offense, but your yard per carry stat better captures that reality.

I think we all know the run defense is and has not been a strength in forever and highlighting one stat or another does not really change that fact.

[Pckfn23]

Here is how you can play a 1 gap attacking style of run defense:

image.png (38.48 KiB) Viewed 444 times

11 personnel would be the hardest to do this in as you probably need to be in nickel the vast majority of the time. That mean that 1 of the DTs needs to be a 2 gap player. The strong side safety (to the TE) can be an extra run defender with eyes on the TE for a run/pass read. We could do this or a variation of it more often, if we chose to.

[Yoop]

Player to the player strength. If they aren't good at 2 gapping and standing up to double teams, play a 1 gap run defense. The Bills and Titans definitely do it. The 3-4 Under that made the Legion of Boom did it. It can't be any worse than what we are seeing now.

could that be because they play more 30 front (base, no nickel) and have better DT's?

w2hy you keep bringing this up, when only several teams in the league have success doing it is so apples to oranges from what we've seen here when we attempt it

It means that a 1 gap run defense can and does work. It is simply a different mentality. And no, it isn't because they play appreciably more 30 fronts... The Bills don't even play a 3-4 defense...

3-4 or 4-3 doesn't matter, DT's need to be able to with stand doubles, even 2 gap or single gap off shoulder doesn't matter much either, the most important thing is this, if the DT can't shed and make the tackle, then he at least has to stop that blocker or blockers from stopping the ILB's or safety's from making the tackle, thats the key point of this whole conversation, stopping the runner.

I get what your saying, you want to be aggressive and penetrate, but this is a numbers game, and someone has to eat up blockers so others can actually make a play, can't all shoot gaps.

I watch this stuff fail every game a DC try's to use it, totally inconsistent unless you have two very good DT and two very good run defending ILB's and even then it gets run on.

we right now are designed personal wise to rush the QB, other then Slaton ( and he is beyond inconsistent) we have single gap penetrating type DT's, why you would try and convince me otherwise isn't convincing, I've watched Clark our best DT get man handled quite often against doubles.

I can't remember why we declined from 2009 to 2010, wasn't Raji injured, did we loose Bishop? etc, the point is a year earlier was the best run stopping defense we've had in 13 years.

[Yoop]

Here is how you can play a 1 gap attacking style of run defense:
image.png

11 personnel would be the hardest to do this in as you probably need to be in nickel the vast majority of the time. That mean that 1 of the DTs needs to be a 2 gap player. The strong side safety (to the TE) can be an extra run defender with eyes on the TE for a run/pass read. We could do this or a variation of it more often, if we chose to.

again Brandon that looks great on paper, but how can you expect those inside lbers to stay true to those gaps when dealing with so much Play action and mis direction, and backfield motion, our most success running the ball ourselves is because other teams ILB's wont freeze to those gaps either because we use motion and play action so much.

sure in run obvious plays I suppose.

nice x's and O's

[Pckfn23]

Here is how you can play a 1 gap attacking style of run defense:
image.png

11 personnel would be the hardest to do this in as you probably need to be in nickel the vast majority of the time. That mean that 1 of the DTs needs to be a 2 gap player. The strong side safety (to the TE) can be an extra run defender with eyes on the TE for a run/pass read. We could do this or a variation of it more often, if we chose to.

again Brandon that looks great on paper, but how can you expect those inside lbers to stay true to those gaps when dealing with so much Play action and mis direction, and backfield motion, our most success running the ball ourselves is because other teams ILB's wont freeze to those gaps either because we use motion and play action so much.

sure in run obvious plays I suppose.

nice x's and O's

No, it doesn't look great just on paper, it is literally how it is played in the NFL today.
1. Yes, ILBs are expected to maintain gap integrity. They do play their way outside as well.
2. Mis-direction means nothing as it is gap sound
3. Play action is irrelevant as it is an issue regardless of the defense that is played. That is not a 1 gap style problem only.
4. Backfield motion doesn't change much unless a player split wide lines up in the backfield, even then the run defense is still gap sound.
5. Again play action and motion doesn't change gap responsibility for the most part, so saying that is why ILBs "freeze" to gaps is why we get our longest runs is inaccurate.
6. ILBs don't "freeze" to their gap they play their gap out.

[Pckfn23]

could that be because they play more 30 front (base, no nickel) and have better DT's?

w2hy you keep bringing this up, when only several teams in the league have success doing it is so apples to oranges from what we've seen here when we attempt it

It means that a 1 gap run defense can and does work. It is simply a different mentality. And no, it isn't because they play appreciably more 30 fronts... The Bills don't even play a 3-4 defense...

3-4 or 4-3 doesn't matter, DT's need to be able to with stand doubles, even 2 gap or single gap off shoulder doesn't matter much either, the most important thing is this, if the DT can't shed and make the tackle, then he at least has to stop that blocker or blockers from stopping the ILB's or safety's from making the tackle, thats the key point of this whole conversation, stopping the runner.

I get what your saying, you want to be aggressive and penetrate, but this is a numbers game, and someone has to eat up blockers so others can actually make a play, can't all shoot gaps.

I watch this stuff fail every game a DC try's to use it, totally inconsistent unless you have two very good DT and two very good run defending ILB's and even then it gets run on.

we right now are designed personal wise to rush the QB, other then Slaton ( and he is beyond inconsistent) we have single gap penetrating type DT's, why you would try and convince me otherwise isn't convincing, I've watched Clark our best DT get man handled quite often against doubles.

I can't remember why we declined from 2009 to 2010, wasn't Raji injured, did we loose Bishop? etc, the point is a year earlier was the best run stopping defense we've had in 13 years.

Yes, stopping the runner is the key point. We can't do it. We have tried for years with a mostly passive 2 gap scheme. It is time to try shifting that to a 1 gap penetrating style that fits our current players.

It is a numbers game and I showed you the numbers can be sound.

You are 100% correct that we have single gap penetrating type DTs! So we should be using them that way!!! Instead we try to use them to occupy blockers, which they are not good at.

In 2009 Bishop and Raji barely played... They were backups. You are misremembering when you say the best run defense was Hawk, Bishop, Raji. The best run defense was Hawk, Barnett, Jenkins, and Jolly.

[Yoop]

Here is how you can play a 1 gap attacking style of run defense:
image.png

11 personnel would be the hardest to do this in as you probably need to be in nickel the vast majority of the time. That mean that 1 of the DTs needs to be a 2 gap player. The strong side safety (to the TE) can be an extra run defender with eyes on the TE for a run/pass read. We could do this or a variation of it more often, if we chose to.

again Brandon that looks great on paper, but how can you expect those inside lbers to stay true to those gaps when dealing with so much Play action and mis direction, and backfield motion, our most success running the ball ourselves is because other teams ILB's wont freeze to those gaps either because we use motion and play action so much.

sure in run obvious plays I suppose.

nice x's and O's

No, it doesn't look great just on paper, it is literally how it is played in the NFL today.
1. Yes, ILBs are expected to maintain gap integrity. They do play their way outside as well.
2. Mis-direction means nothing as it is gap sound
3. Play action is irrelevant as it is an issue regardless of the defense that is played. That is not a 1 gap style problem only.
4. Backfield motion doesn't change much unless a player split wide lines up in the backfield, even then the run defense is still gap sound.
5. Again play action and motion doesn't change gap responsibility for the most part, so saying that is why ILBs "freeze" to gaps is why we get our longest runs is inaccurate.
6. ILBs don't "freeze" to their gap the play their gap out.

jet sweeps drag lbers, motion does just what the sweeps do, again your convinced of what you think works, great, I'll stick with what actually does work which is a brute NT that eats up double teams and a 3 tech like Clark,.

Yoho's crush for that big DT's ( Wyatts team mate) probably would have done more for us against the run then Wyatt ever will, hind sight says I was wrong to want Wyatt in last years draft.

[Pckfn23]

again Brandon that looks great on paper, but how can you expect those inside lbers to stay true to those gaps when dealing with so much Play action and mis direction, and backfield motion, our most success running the ball ourselves is because other teams ILB's wont freeze to those gaps either because we use motion and play action so much.

sure in run obvious plays I suppose.

nice x's and O's

No, it doesn't look great just on paper, it is literally how it is played in the NFL today.
1. Yes, ILBs are expected to maintain gap integrity. They do play their way outside as well.
2. Mis-direction means nothing as it is gap sound
3. Play action is irrelevant as it is an issue regardless of the defense that is played. That is not a 1 gap style problem only.
4. Backfield motion doesn't change much unless a player split wide lines up in the backfield, even then the run defense is still gap sound.
5. Again play action and motion doesn't change gap responsibility for the most part, so saying that is why ILBs "freeze" to gaps is why we get our longest runs is inaccurate.
6. ILBs don't "freeze" to their gap the play their gap out.

jet sweeps drag lbers, motion does just what the sweeps do, again your convinced of what you think works, great, I'll stick with what actually does work which is a brute NT that eats up double teams and a 3 tech like Clark,.

Yoho's crush for that big DT's ( Wyatts team mate) probably would have done more for us against the run then Wyatt ever will, hind sight says I was wrong to want Wyatt in last years draft.

100% Jet sweeps have ILBs playing their way out. That's exactly what I just said. They play their gap out. They check their gap and the blocking scheme and play their way outside if it is an outside run. Motion doesn't do that as it is before the snap. ILBs don't automatically fly out in response to motion...

It works?? Did you sleep through Sunday's game?? You let me know what it starts working for us.


You are making excuses about why 1 gap style does not work when NFL teams every year run it! Like WTF? It works! Teams play it and do well!

[Yoop]

It means that a 1 gap run defense can and does work. It is simply a different mentality. And no, it isn't because they play appreciably more 30 fronts... The Bills don't even play a 3-4 defense...

3-4 or 4-3 doesn't matter, DT's need to be able to with stand doubles, even 2 gap or single gap off shoulder doesn't matter much either, the most important thing is this, if the DT can't shed and make the tackle, then he at least has to stop that blocker or blockers from stopping the ILB's or safety's from making the tackle, thats the key point of this whole conversation, stopping the runner.

I get what your saying, you want to be aggressive and penetrate, but this is a numbers game, and someone has to eat up blockers so others can actually make a play, can't all shoot gaps.

I watch this stuff fail every game a DC try's to use it, totally inconsistent unless you have two very good DT and two very good run defending ILB's and even then it gets run on.

we right now are designed personal wise to rush the QB, other then Slaton ( and he is beyond inconsistent) we have single gap penetrating type DT's, why you would try and convince me otherwise isn't convincing, I've watched Clark our best DT get man handled quite often against doubles.

I can't remember why we declined from 2009 to 2010, wasn't Raji injured, did we loose Bishop? etc, the point is a year earlier was the best run stopping defense we've had in 13 years.

Yes, stopping the runner is the key point. We can't do it. We have tried for years with a mostly passive 2 gap scheme. It is time to try shifting that to a 1 gap penetrating style that fits our current players.

It is a numbers game and I showed you the numbers can be sound.

You are 100% correct that we have single gap penetrating type DTs! So we should be using them that way!!! Instead we try to use them to occupy blockers, which they are not good at.

In 2009 Bishop and Raji barely played... They were backups. You are misremembering when you say the best run defense was Hawk, Bishop, Raji. The best run defense was Hawk, Barnett, Jenkins, and Jolly.

well what I'am not misremembering is that we've more often then not used your penetrating single gap DT (3 tech) with another DT shading a A gap and have gotten run on, along with that we've 2 gapped, but less of it then the other

now I may have the dates wrong, but with Picket Jolly Jenkins and Raji that group rocked against the run, Raji as a rookie got one start, but played a lot that year, same with Bishop, memory says Barnett was dinged up late season?????? Size matters, if ya lack great leverage, quick feet, ya still get to fall back on being bigger and stronger then your opponent.

2010 was still solid against the run, Raji started every game, Picket 12, Jenkins 8. point is ya got to have those big guys, and we do, but Slaton has to be more consistent, course so do the others, game after game our DT's get pushed out of the way and OL man destroy our ILB's.

the rest of your argument is you trying to tell me ILB's will honor those gaps, no matter what the offense does pre snap, why would you even attempt to tell me something as idiotic as that? if it where as you say OC wouldn't design pre snap confusion, the goal with that stuff is to manipulate those lbers

[Pckfn23]

well what I'am not misremembering is that we've more often then not used your penetrating single gap DT (3 tech) with another DT shading a A gap and have gotten run on, along with that we've 2 gapped, but less of it then the other

You are, that is the entire point of this conversation. We do not use that style more often than not... We have been a 2 gap, funnel to the ILBs style of run defense for some time now.

now I may have the dates wrong, but with Picket Jolly Jenkins and Raji that group rocked against the run, Raji as a rookie got one start, but played a lot that year, same with Bishop, memory says Barnett was dinged up late season?????? Size matters, if ya lack great leverage, quick feet, ya still get to fall back on being bigger and stronger then your opponent.

2010 was still solid against the run, Raji started every game, Picket 12, Jenkins 8. point is ya got to have those big guys, and we do, but Slaton has to be more consistent, course so do the others, game after game our DT's get pushed out of the way and OL man destroy our ILB's.

Raji didn't play much his rookie year, he definitely did not play a lot. That was Jenkins Jolly and Pickett. Same with Bishop. Chillar played more than he did and was the backup to Barnett and Hawk. 2009 was Jenkins, Pickett, Jolly, Hawk, and Barnett. 2010 was not solid against the run, unless you think 4.7 yards a carry is solid against the run...

DTs get pushed out of the way and get to our ILBs because we are asking them to do something they are not good at. Let's mix it up more!

the rest of your argument is you trying to tell me ILB's will honor those gaps, no matter what the offense does pre snap, why would you even attempt to tell me something as idiotic as that? if it where as you say OC wouldn't design pre snap confusion, the goal with that stuff is to manipulate those lbers

You think expecting an ILB to be fundamentally gap sound is idiotic? That's basic fundamental football man. To play the run the front 6-7 has to be gap sound... Do I expect that? Hell ya I do and every coach in the world does too. No matter the style of defense a team runs, if the players are not gap sound, it will never work. It is astounding that you believe players shouldn't be accountable...

Pre-snap confusion? Can you be specific instead of just mention vague nonsense? Motion doesn't, as you have explained, manipulate the ILBs. It manipulates the DBs... Basic football. Only a TE swapping sides or a TE wide moving inline, vice versa, or to the backfield would manipulate the ILBs and that is an easy shift for the defense. That does not or should not create any confusion about gap responsibility AND it is not something specific to a 1 gap style.

Again, you are trying to poke holes in a run defense style that is proven to be effective in the NFL. Teams run it and are successful. Do you even realize that?

We have been trying a predominately 2 gap style of run defense. It has not been working. Let's play to our players strength and change to a 1 gap style that is also known to work in the NFL.

[Yoop]

well what I'am not misremembering is that we've more often then not used your penetrating single gap DT (3 tech) with another DT shading a A gap and have gotten run on, along with that we've 2 gapped, but less of it then the other

You are, that is the entire point of this conversation. We do not use that style more often than not... We have been a 2 gap, funnel to the ILBs style of run defense for some time now.

now I may have the dates wrong, but with Picket Jolly Jenkins and Raji that group rocked against the run, Raji as a rookie got one start, but played a lot that year, same with Bishop, memory says Barnett was dinged up late season?????? Size matters, if ya lack great leverage, quick feet, ya still get to fall back on being bigger and stronger then your opponent.

2010 was still solid against the run, Raji started every game, Picket 12, Jenkins 8. point is ya got to have those big guys, and we do, but Slaton has to be more consistent, course so do the others, game after game our DT's get pushed out of the way and OL man destroy our ILB's.

Raji didn't play much his rookie year, he definitely did not play a lot. That was Jenkins Jolly and Pickett. Same with Bishop. Chillar played more than he did and was the backup to Barnett and Hawk. 2009 was Jenkins, Pickett, Jolly, Hawk, and Barnett. 2010 was not solid against the run, unless you think 4.7 yards a carry is solid against the run...

DTs get pushed out of the way and get to our ILBs because we are asking them to do something they are not good at. Let's mix it up more!

the rest of your argument is you trying to tell me ILB's will honor those gaps, no matter what the offense does pre snap, why would you even attempt to tell me something as idiotic as that? if it where as you say OC wouldn't design pre snap confusion, the goal with that stuff is to manipulate those lbers

You think expecting an ILB to be fundamentally gap sound is idiotic? That's basic fundamental football man. To play the run the front 6-7 has to be gap sound... Do I expect that? Hell ya I do and every coach in the world does too. No matter the style of defense a team runs, if the players are not gap sound, it will never work. It is astounding that you believe players shouldn't be accountable...

Pre-snap confusion? Can you be specific instead of just mention vague nonsense? Motion doesn't, as you have explained, manipulate the ILBs. It manipulates the DBs... Basic football. Only a TE swapping sides or a TE wide moving inline, vice versa, or to the backfield would manipulate the ILBs and that is an easy shift for the defense. That does not or should not create any confusion about gap responsibility AND it is not something specific to a 1 gap style.

Again, you are trying to poke holes in a run defense style that is proven to be effective in the NFL. Teams run it and are successful. Do you even realize that?

We have been trying a predominately 2 gap style of run defense. It has not been working. Let's play to our players strength and change to a 1 gap style that is also known to work in the NFL.

lots of expecting stuff that again sounds good on paper, like lbers honoring gaps, obviously that is the goal, but for us and and most other teams that fails as often as it works, any ( all) motion attracts attention, we see lbers shift in or out not just on what a TE does ( remember now, according to you lbers don't cover TE's) but on RB's or any backfield motion.

When you see a DT on the inside shoulder of the tackle he sure as hell aint 2 gapping, and Barry has done this with both DT's at the same time plenty this season, I've complained about it here after several games, so those are instances where both are in a gap, the only thing there funneling to the lbers are offensive guards and the center, plenty of other times ( mostly ) I see one DT head up, the other off shoulder to the OL man across from them.

again it doesn't matter what tech there in, for 1. the ILB's are not statues that will sit in those off gaps and wait for that RB to fill it, just because thats what there suppose to do, doesn't mean it works out that way.

the size of DT's we had back in 09 and 10 is what made those defenses better against the run, the smallish guys we have now is the reason we suck year in and year out stopping the run, thats my opinion, your welcome to yours.

[Scott4Pack]

To get this thread somewhat back on topic i think we will likely be seeing more articles like the one below that says that "Given how this season has played out, it is not only Barry who should be fired, but Green Bay needs to clean house on the defensive side of the ball."

https://dairylandexpress.com/2022/11/28 ... ing-staff/

There is nothing controversial about calling for Barry''s firing or that of the rest of the defensive coaching staff.

But do folks really think that replacing Barry, like he replaced Pettine who replaced Capers, is really all that needs to be done to change the long-standing defensive problems in Green Bay?

I am somewhat amazed that none of the media folks who cover the team have dived into just why it is that the defense has performed so poorly under two General Managers, two head coaches, three Defensive Coordinators, and a complete turnover of defensive personnel.

What I fear is that MLF, knowing he is under the microscope, is just going to hire another safe, veteran coach and we will get the same old Packer defense.

Anyway, it is already the season for speculating on what might happen on the defensive side of the ball in 2023.

I believe I saw a report that said that MLF revealed that “It isn’t Barry’s fault.” Has anybody seen this from a verifiable source?

[Pckfn23]

lots of expecting stuff that again sounds good on paper, like lbers honoring gaps, obviously that is the goal, but for us and and most other teams that fails as often as it works,

You keep saying sounds good on paper but other teams do it on the field. This isn't some theoretical thing that might work. IT DOES WORK. There are expectations on defense and accountability. Gap control is one of them and it is without a doubt not too much to ask.

any ( all) motion attracts attention, we see lbers shift in or out not just on what a TE does ( remember now, according to you lbers don't cover TE's) but on RB's or any backfield motion.

Sure, acknowledge it, but it doesn't change the gap assignment. I honestly think you believe my diagram is the only way I am suggesting 1 gap run defense can be played. My Lord, it is only 1 example. Yes an ILB can bump and gaps can change due to motion, but that isn't anything irregular. It happens in 2 gap run defense as well.

More pet topics from you... No, I never said LBs can't or never cover TEs. Leave it alone. Your ignorance on the subject has been proven many times over.

When you see a DT on the inside shoulder of the tackle he sure as hell aint 2 gapping,

Why not? He definitely can. He would have B and C gap driving into the OTs inside shoulder to work outside shoulder to the C gap as his body occupies the B gap. It's a basic DT technique...

and Barry has done this with both DT's at the same time plenty this season,

He has 1 gapped some times, but it is not something we do often. We live in the 2 gap run defense. Can you not be so black and white all the time. That would be great!

again it doesn't matter what tech there in, for 1. the ILB's are not statues that will sit in those off gaps and wait for that RB to fill it, just because thats what there suppose to do, doesn't mean it works out that way.

Do you understand what I mean by play their gap out? Who said ILBs are statues that sit in those "off" gaps? Did you miss this: "They play their gap out. They check their gap and the blocking scheme and play their way outside if it is an outside run." ILBs check their gap and blocking scheme and play their way outside with the flow of the play. They don't just throw themselves into the gap regardless of everything else... And it does work that way. We see it every Sunday.

the size of DT's we had back in 09 and 10 is what made those defenses better against the run, the smallish guys we have now is the reason we suck year in and year out stopping the run, thats my opinion, your welcome to yours.

Sure in 2009 it did work with big DTs. We don't have those big DTs, so how about we change up the $%@# scheme!!! That is what I have been saying. Why try to play a scheme that we don't have the players for??

I honestly think you aren't understanding what is meant by 1 gap run defense. Here are things to read/watch that may help:
https://fansguidetofootball.wordpress.c ... e-schemes/ - The very basics, start here
https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... gapsa.html - More explanation

[Pckfn23]

To get this thread somewhat back on topic i think we will likely be seeing more articles like the one below that says that "Given how this season has played out, it is not only Barry who should be fired, but Green Bay needs to clean house on the defensive side of the ball."

https://dairylandexpress.com/2022/11/28 ... ing-staff/

There is nothing controversial about calling for Barry''s firing or that of the rest of the defensive coaching staff.

But do folks really think that replacing Barry, like he replaced Pettine who replaced Capers, is really all that needs to be done to change the long-standing defensive problems in Green Bay?

I am somewhat amazed that none of the media folks who cover the team have dived into just why it is that the defense has performed so poorly under two General Managers, two head coaches, three Defensive Coordinators, and a complete turnover of defensive personnel.

What I fear is that MLF, knowing he is under the microscope, is just going to hire another safe, veteran coach and we will get the same old Packer defense.

Anyway, it is already the season for speculating on what might happen on the defensive side of the ball in 2023.

I believe I saw a report that said that MLF revealed that “It isn’t Barry’s fault.” Has anybody seen this from a verifiable source?

He said it isn't just one persons' fault.

[Yoop]

APB brought this a week ago, it explains basically what I've been talking about, NFL DL man have been getting smaller, and that makes them easier to block in any tech they use

I've just watched some of the Eagles game, and we mix it up with exactly what you want, 1 2 gapper and one single tech, lots, I have not seen a play yet where we 2 gapped both DT's, again your trying to sell me a empty bag, with no goods in the bag.

then insult me a vid of the difference between the 2 techs like I'am one of your grade school kids. condescension in the extreme, this is why others say it is frustrating to talk with you.

and I'am not being narrow minded, obviously we do 2 gap, ya have to with any nickel front, but even in a base 30 front we are blown off the ball, again unless you have prime Clark and another just about as good that will be the case.

go watch some games, our DL get man handled, which makes it near impossible for our ILB's to hold those gaps because a OL man is smacking them out of it.

this is not me wanting to 2 gap, although that works with the right players, it's me wanting to get a little bigger with our DT's, and that twitter read APB brought explains why, read it.

[Yoop]

To get this thread somewhat back on topic i think we will likely be seeing more articles like the one below that says that "Given how this season has played out, it is not only Barry who should be fired, but Green Bay needs to clean house on the defensive side of the ball."

https://dairylandexpress.com/2022/11/28 ... ing-staff/

There is nothing controversial about calling for Barry''s firing or that of the rest of the defensive coaching staff.

But do folks really think that replacing Barry, like he replaced Pettine who replaced Capers, is really all that needs to be done to change the long-standing defensive problems in Green Bay?

I am somewhat amazed that none of the media folks who cover the team have dived into just why it is that the defense has performed so poorly under two General Managers, two head coaches, three Defensive Coordinators, and a complete turnover of defensive personnel.

What I fear is that MLF, knowing he is under the microscope, is just going to hire another safe, veteran coach and we will get the same old Packer defense.

Anyway, it is already the season for speculating on what might happen on the defensive side of the ball in 2023.

I believe I saw a report that said that MLF revealed that “It isn’t Barry’s fault.” Has anybody seen this from a verifiable source?

Lafluer is simply defending his friend/hire, I watch players on defense in every game now take plays off, I mean simply give up or make a half hearted effort to make a tackle, Lafluer needs to act.

Leonard is available, he was our first choice two years ago but turned us down in favor of staying in Madison and eventually becoming HC, that avenue has closed now.

[Labrev]

I kinda don't want Leonhard after (1) pulling that crap; (2) being passed up by his own team for a promotion.

I will grant you that neither of those are good reasons for my feeling. It just doesn't feel "right" to me anymore. It feels like us being a day late and a dollar short again, when we should move on.

[Pckfn23]

APB brought this a week ago, it explains basically what I've been talking about, NFL DL man have been getting smaller, and that makes them easier to block in any tech they use

I've just watched some of the Eagles game, and we mix it up with exactly what you want, 1 2 gapper and one single tech, lots, I have not seen a play yet where we 2 gapped both DT's, again your trying to sell me a empty bag, with no goods in the bag.

then insult me a vid of the difference between the 2 techs like I'am one of your grade school kids. condescension in the extreme, this is why others say it is frustrating to talk with you.

and I'am not being narrow minded, obviously we do 2 gap, ya have to with any nickel front, but even in a base 30 front we are blown off the ball, again unless you have prime Clark and another just about as good that will be the case.

go watch some games, our DL get man handled, which makes it near impossible for our ILB's to hold those gaps because a OL man is smacking them out of it.

this is not me wanting to 2 gap, although that works with the right players, it's me wanting to get a little bigger with our DT's, and that twitter read APB brought explains why, read it.

Although what APB posted was a good video, it is irrelevant to this discussion. Bigger DL does not equal good run defense and small DL does not equal poor run defense (see last paragraph)

You didn't rewatch the game. That's just not true.
2nd TD right here, 2 gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=79
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=464
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=482
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=598
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=607

That is only from the highlights...

And this is why I posted some information about what 1 and 2 gap defenses are, because you obviously don't understand. It's also obvious because you believe the diagram I posted is "what I want." No it is simply a way to play 1 gap against 11 personnel, which is hard to play that style against as I explained in the OP. There are many other variations.

We can want bigger DTs until we are blue in the face, we just don't have them, so instead of wishing for it how about we do something proactive and change it up some and play a style that better fits our current players!

We don't have to play predominately 2 gap. Frankly, it doesn't make sense to do so with the personnel we have, but we continue to do it, to poor results. Look at the 49ers, best run defense in the league right now:

image.png (49.39 KiB) Viewed 320 times

How about the Ravens, the 2nd best run D in the league:

image.png (24.01 KiB) Viewed 320 times

How about the Titans, the 3rd best run D in the league:

image.png (38.59 KiB) Viewed 320 times

Where are their huge guys? How can they make it work? BECAUSE THEY RUN A 1 GAP ATTACKING STYLE OF RUN DEFENSE!

1 gap works even with smaller DTs. We are a predominantly 2 gap run defense without the personnel to successfully run it... You have this notion that the only a run defense can be successful is if a team has several players above 325. The above proves that that is incorrect.

[Pckfn23]

I kinda don't want Leonhard after (1) pulling that crap; (2) being passed up by his own team for a promotion.

I will grant you that neither of those are good reasons for my feeling. It just doesn't feel "right" to me anymore. It feels like us being a day late and a dollar short again, when we should move on.

To be fair there is SOOO much more to being a HC in the college game. Recruiting is HUGE, so that could be why he was passed up.

I liked Leonhard initially at Wisconsin, but I did voice caution as it was only his first year or 2. The last few years I have not been a fan of what he brings to the defensive backfield. I do love what he does up front though.