Packer 2022 Defense Thoughts

[BF004]

I kinda don't want Leonhard after (1) pulling that crap; (2) being passed up by his own team for a promotion.

I will grant you that neither of those are good reasons for my feeling. It just doesn't feel "right" to me anymore. It feels like us being a day late and a dollar short again, when we should move on.

I think Fickell was unique for WI, that's a top 5-10 hire. Just guessing, but they might have had the traditional search and interview and a fair chance they hire Leonhard end of the day. But you just have a unique chance to make a big splash and they took it.

[Yoop]

We don't have to play predominately 2 gap. Frankly, it doesn't make sense to do so with the personnel we have, but we continue to do it, to poor results. Look at the 49ers, best run defense in the league right now:

what we should do more of is what we did later in the Eagles game, more base 30 front.I thought that was the reason for drafting Walker, better coverage at ILB should translate to more 30 fronts, but not with Barry.

I'd bet most of those players on your list also have a NT 2 gapping or they use more base front

in nickel one of our DT's has to 2 gap, and thats what we did mostly last week, and that is what you are confusing, we very seldom from what I saw 2 gap both DT's

[Yoop]

I think Fickell was unique for WI, that's a top 5-10 hire. Just guessing, but they might have had the traditional search and interview and a fair chance they hire Leonhard end of the day. But you just have a unique chance to make a big splash and they took it.

my impression is that Leonard is upset that he didn't get the HC job, I don't see him staying with Wi. if we don't offer him the job, he'll go somewhere

[Pckfn23]

Here are a few more examples of what a 1 gap scheme would look like against different personnel.

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These are just very basic, but it is fundamentally what it would look like. Many variations off of it.

[Pckfn23]

what we should do more of is what we did later in the Eagles game, more base 30 front.I thought that was the reason for drafting Walker, better coverage at ILB should translate to more 30 fronts, but not with Barry.

It doesn't schematically work that way for the most part, but I agree, I would like to see more base at times especially against 11 personnel. However with 3+ WRs on the field the defensive personnel is kind of dictated by the offensive personnel unless you want to go cover 0. What would be nice is to mix it up in the front more. Instead of playing a 2-4 nickel, how about a 3-3 nickel? Barry did this more last year, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside this year.

I'd bet most of those players on your list also have a NT 2 gapping or they use more base front

Those 3 teams don't play base appreciably more than we do. So no, that is incorrect.

in nickel one of our DT's has to 2 gap, and thats what we did mostly last week, and that is what you are confusing, we very seldom from what I saw 2 gap both DT's

Incorrect. In nickel 1 of the DTs does not have to 2 gap. See diagrams above. The 2nd diagram is Nickel and does not require a 2 gap DT. This is exactly why I posted the video and articles. You don't have a good understanding of the subject. It was not an insult, but trying to get you information.

I posted 5 plays just from the highlights of Sunday that showed 2 gap. What you think you saw is not what happened.

[Yoop]

Here are a few more examples of what a 1 gap scheme would look like against different personnel.
image.png
image.png

These are just very basic, but it is fundamentally what it would look like. Many variations off of it.

hey thanks again for the diagrams, ya know I eat this stuff up. don't mean to insult you, but seriously wouldn't you think I've seen this stuff before

my point though is that I disagree with you because we have done this stuff and you simply refuse to admit it, your mind seems locked into this idea that in a light front (nickel, 2 down DT) ya don't need a 2 gapper, and the lbers will in fact be able to shed a OL block and fill those gaps, and that has not been the outcome, far from it in fact, in a 30 front ( base 3 down DT) you typically would have 2 DT's 1 gapping and the NT 2 gapping as Barry used late in the Eagles game.

Barry's problem is that he doesn't trust the coverage to play more base, possibly losing Campbell leads to his lack of faith, whatever, we do not 2 gap both DT's as much as your trying to get me to believe, and if your going to sacrifice size at DT for single gap penetrators with a 20 front scheme they have to be at least as good as the guys you have on that list, they have to command double blocks or those lbers will never be clean to make the tackles, and that is what I see, you keep thinking it's a tech issue if that helps you sleep at night

[Pckfn23]

hey thanks again for the diagrams, ya know I eat this stuff up. don't mean to insult you, but seriously wouldn't you think I've seen this stuff before

I know you haven't as your comment proves: "in nickel one of our DT's has to 2 gap"

my point though is that I disagree with you because we have done this stuff and you simply refuse to admit it,

I have said we do this... It is however not what we predominantly do. It's our change up. We need to make it our staple. It would better fit our personnel.

your mind seems locked into this idea that in a light front (nickel, 2 down DT) ya don't need a 2 gapper, and the lbers will in fact be able to shed a OL block and fill those gaps,

Ya, my mind is made up because that is reality. We see it from other teams in the NFL on a weekly basis.

in a 30 front ( base 3 down DT) you typically would have 2 DT's 1 gapping and the NT 2 gapping as Barry used late in the Eagles game.

Since you do not watch much football other than the Packers you believe that what the Packers do is what is done around the league. In fact, it isn't and isn't the only thing that works or does not work. In base, a team can 2 gap all 3 DL if they choose. They can 1 gap all 3. They can use some combination.

Barry's problem is that he doesn't trust the coverage to play more base, possibly losing Campbell leads to his lack of faith, whatever, we do not 2 gap both DT's as much as your trying to get me to believe,

We do. It's our predominant run defense.

and if your going to sacrifice size at DT for single gap penetrators with a 20 front scheme they have to be at least as good as the guys you have on that list, they have to command double blocks or those lbers will never be clean to make the tackles

You are confusing 2 gap and 1 gap again. LBers don't have to be clean in a 1 gap style, they need to be responsible for their gap. We have decent to good players on the DL, we just use them improperly right now.

and that is what I see, you keep thinking it's a tech issue if that helps you sleep at night

Can you explain how we are to magically get these 330+ pound studs on the DL this season? You can't? Right, so let's change up the scheme a bit to better fit who we have!

[Yoop]

ince you do not watch much football other than the Packers you believe that what the Packers do is what is done around the league. In fact, it isn't and isn't the only thing that works or does not work. In base, a team can 2 gap all 3 DL if they choose. They can 1 gap all 3. They can use some combination.

your right I don't watch as much football any more, still though, I do have the games turned on as crochet and do my needle point

again I disagree, we do NOT 2 gap both of our interior lineman, this is a figment of your imagination, and quit trying to make this stuff complicated, I watch enough football to know teams often 2 gap one of there down lineman when in a nickel fronts, just like us, it is the only way to balance body to body and attempt to help the lbers, but we continue to fail because our DT's are blown off the ball.

hey I'd love to play more base 30 front, but you have to be able to cover off that front, for years we have not had lbers with coverage ability, we did when Campbell was healthy, but WAlker was still learning the ropes, but Barry still used mostly nickel with 2 down DT's, one 2 gapping, and the other in single tech.

I've watched a lot of the Eagle game, and that is mostly what I saw, 1 head up, the other off shoulder or in a gap, and just because our DT's get stood up, and stopped doesn't mean they are two gapping as much as there just getting beat and pushed out of the run lane.

[Pckfn23]

again I disagree, we do NOT 2 gap both of our interior lineman, this is a figment of your imagination

I showed 5 plays from just the Packers/Eagles highlights that say you are wrong:
2nd TD right here, 2 gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=79
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=464
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=482
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=598
2 Gap: https://youtu.be/JbKhPDQH5hA?t=607

I watch enough football to know teams often 2 gap one of there down lineman when in a nickel fronts, just like us, it is the only way to balance body to body and attempt to help the lbers, but we continue to fail because our DT's are blown off the ball.

Teams do 2 gap one DT, but it isn't the only way, see diagram above. We continue to see our DTs blown off the ball because we make them 2 gap too often. Something they are not good at, see above.

hey I'd love to play more base 30 front, but you have to be able to cover off that front, for years we have not had lbers with coverage ability, we did when Campbell was healthy, but WAlker was still learning the ropes

I don't think you understand what a 30 front is. You can play nickel with a 30 front. That would be a 3-3. In base that would be a 3-4, which generally you would never play with 4 or more WRs on the field and rarely play with 3 WRs on the field. If a team isn't playing nickel or dime with 3 WRs on the field they are forced into single high or cover 0.

Barry still used mostly nickel with 2 down DT's, one 2 gapping, and the other in single tech.

EVERY team in the NFL uses nickel or dime as their predominant defense because of the personnel groups they must defend. We do not mostly 2 gap and 1 gap the DTs in nickel. That is simply a false statement, you fabricating things again. Bring proof.

I've watched a lot of the Eagle game, and that is mostly what I saw, 1 head up, the other off shoulder or in a gap

You mistake what you wanted to see and what actually happens. And you show that you do not understand what these schemes are. The presnap alignment of "1 head up, the other off shoulder in in a gap" does not predetermine 1 gap or 2 gap. A DT can play 2 gap even in a shade, they can play 1 gap head up.

just because our DT's get stood up, and stopped doesn't mean they are two gapping as much as there just getting beat and pushed out of the run lane.

No it doesn't, but their technique does. When they step into the lineman and punch in the chest with 2 hands it definitely means they are 2 gapping. That is what we predominately see. I am literally giving you evidence that we do, but you are refusing to see reality because you have to stick to an asinine statement that the only way to play good run defense is with several DTs over 330. I even showed you 3 teams that don't have that and are the top 3 run teams in the league. You can continue to deny reality if you like, but I will let it go and stick to what is actually happening.

[BF004]

This was the 3rd and 14 play just before half. Hurts threw to the uncovered D Smith for 13 yards prompting them to go for it on 4th and 1 and ultimately score before the half.

The Packers had called a timeout prior to this play to conserve clock and set the defense. This is what we got.

(1:10 - 2nd) Timeout #1 by GB at 01:10.

3rd & 14 at PHI 48
(1:10 - 2nd) (Shotgun) J.Hurts pass short left to D.Smith to GB 39 for 13 yards (Q.Walker; J.Alexander). GB-I.McDuffie was injured during the play.

I mean, it's just criminal.

Amos just looks awful this year.

[Pugger]

I kinda don't want Leonhard after (1) pulling that crap; (2) being passed up by his own team for a promotion.

I will grant you that neither of those are good reasons for my feeling. It just doesn't feel "right" to me anymore. It feels like us being a day late and a dollar short again, when we should move on.

What crap are you talking about?

Leonard's defenses at Wisconsin in 2020 and 2021.were ranked in the top 5 in the country. Just because he was passed over for a HC with a better HC resume isn't important. Some guys make better coordinators than HCs. We see that all the time in the NFL.

[Drj820]

That wasn’t really Amos looking awful. It was more just a great offensive route tree designed to be difficult on a zone. Amos and Jaire were basically in man off the LOS until both guys cleared their zones and the qb threw it right as Amos had some indecision on when to switch off. Totally normal to need a second to decipher that. If Amos comes off that too early, no doubt 81 is getting the ball for a first down.

[Yoop]

You mistake what you wanted to see and what actually happens. And you show that you do not understand what these schemes are. The presnap alignment of "1 head up, the other off shoulder in in a gap" does not predetermine 1 gap or 2 gap. A DT can play 2 gap even in a shade, they can play 1 gap head up.

according to your thinking, unless a DT keeps his hands down and actually bolts through a gap he's 2 (two ) gapping, with that way of thinking, sure we mostly 2 gap our DT's, but thats not why our DT's punch the Ol man, they do that to shed and make a play and keep the Ol mans hands off them, your idea that our DT's need to bolt through those gaps and make a stop behind the los requires them to succeed or they are leaving a hole for the RB to run through.

I have no problem with playing it that way in a 30 front because you have one more DT, or you stunt a lber, but in a 20 front your short that player and someone has to 2 gap or the numbers are against you, and when Barry used a base front, we stopped the run.

and I watch enough games to know single tech in a nickel front isn't as affective as your making it out to be.

and APB's article is spot on, you just don't like hearing the truth, it goes against your idea that a 300 lb DT is just as affective stopping the run as the bigger Raji style NT, and thats just not true.

as the article said, teams went with the lighter guys because they tend to be better pass rushers, which just a smidge of common sense says is true ( geesh are we having a popeye moment here )

the Kenny Clarks are few and far between, but thats the type player ya need if your going to for go the behemoths that pure size demand two blockers to contain, where Clark gets two simply on athleticism, we've been trying to find his play partner as long as we've had him, that tree doesn't bare a lot of fruit, Maybe Wyatt will be that guy next year.

[APB]

That wasn’t really Amos looking awful. It was more just a great offensive route tree designed to be difficult on a zone. Amos and Jaire were basically in man off the LOS until both guys cleared their zones and the qb threw it right as Amos had some indecision on when to switch off. Totally normal to need a second to decipher that. If Amos comes off that too early, no doubt 81 is getting the ball for a first down.

I think the “awful” part he was referring to was the initial miss on the tackle that would have left them 5-6 yds short as opposed to the whiff and getting him down a yard short. That difference likely resulted in the decision to go on 4th and ultimately score a TD before the break.

[Drj820]

That wasn’t really Amos looking awful. It was more just a great offensive route tree designed to be difficult on a zone. Amos and Jaire were basically in man off the LOS until both guys cleared their zones and the qb threw it right as Amos had some indecision on when to switch off. Totally normal to need a second to decipher that. If Amos comes off that too early, no doubt 81 is getting the ball for a first down.

I think the “awful” part he was referring to was the initial miss on the tackle that would have left them 5-6 yds short as opposed to the whiff and getting him down a yard short. That difference likely resulted in the decision to go on 4th and ultimately score a TD before the break.

Ya i just don’t think it’s that awful. More of a good offensive play. When Amos decides it’s time to switch to his new assignment, he has to go to the spot he did because he didn’t realize the ball was thrown to the WR already and if he ran right into him it would easily be PI if the ball wasn’t thrown yet.

Of course If he saw the ball was going to smith then he should have just run right through him, but I don’t think he saw that until he got to his new spot…then smith who is an elite athlete, just made a heck of a move.

I credit the offense and blame poor scheme for matching up Amos with Davante Smith. The scheme put him in a really tough spot. Also props to hurts for the perfect timing of the pass. Tossed it as soon as the secondary members had to make the switch.

[APB]

That wasn’t really Amos looking awful. It was more just a great offensive route tree designed to be difficult on a zone. Amos and Jaire were basically in man off the LOS until both guys cleared their zones and the qb threw it right as Amos had some indecision on when to switch off. Totally normal to need a second to decipher that. If Amos comes off that too early, no doubt 81 is getting the ball for a first down.

I think the “awful” part he was referring to was the initial miss on the tackle that would have left them 5-6 yds short as opposed to the whiff and getting him down a yard short. That difference likely resulted in the decision to go on 4th and ultimately score a TD before the break.

Ya i just don’t think it’s that awful. More of a good offensive play. When Amos decides it’s time to switch to his new assignment, he has to go to the spot he did because he didn’t realize the ball was thrown to the WR already and if he ran right into him it would easily be PI if the ball wasn’t thrown yet.

Of course If he saw the ball was going to smith then he should have just run right through him, but I don’t think he saw that until he got to his new spot…then smith who is an elite athlete, just made a heck of a move.

I credit the offense and blame poor scheme for matching up Amos with Davante Smith. The scheme put him in a really tough spot. Also props to hurts for the perfect timing of the pass. Tossed it as soon as the secondary members had to make the switch.

I’m guessing this was one of the 20 missed tackle plays Lafleur counted in his press summary. This one was particularly impactful. Yeah, the Eagle players made good plays but it does not negate the fact had Amos done the same, they would have been punting.

[BSA]

GB is currently 9th in the NFL in time of possession per game at 30:45. That means the offense has been on the field more than the defense this season.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/a ... -net-of-ot

The Rodgers-Packers are always high on the TOP lists because he likes to have as much time as possible pre-snap to decipher the defense. It drives some fans nuts, taking the play clock all the way down to the nubs on each play. But the Rodgers-Packers made it work to the tune of (3) 13 win seasons and a pair of MVPs. But the scoring has been down significantly in 2022 and that certainly impacts the defense

In 2020, GB was # 1 in 1st half scoring, in 2021 they were ranked # 10. In 2022 ? Dropped all the way down to # 19 in 1st half points
So the Packers are still slow-playing on offense - but they aren't getting the points they did in the past so they aren't helping the defense by getting out to an early lead.

The 2022 defense is playing poorly and there are a myriad of reasons for that, one of which is an underperforming offense.

[BF004]

Also interesting, would be fun to see play counts instead of TOP. Maybe even filtering out garbage time (win probability < 1-5% or something.

[BSA]

would be fun to see play counts

GB has been pretty consistent with about 61-62 offensive plays/game across 2020, 2021 and 2022 and their league ranking is in the 20's
I think NOT getting a lead in the 1st half is a bigger issue with regards to supporting the defense.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/p ... 2021-02-08

The offense also used to do a better job of doubling up...scoring at the end of 1st half and then again coming out in 3rd quarter. That doesn't appear to be happening as often in 2022. Don't have stats for that one, so I'm just going off my flawed memory.

One more item of note: Capers used to look at the difference in passer rating between GB and their opponents. When Rodgers was playing well, GB always had the advantage in passer rating. In 2022, Rodgers' passer rating has dropped, while our opponents' has risen to the point where they're really close now. In 2022, the Packers do not have the advantage in passer rating and that's another component where the poor offense negatively impacts the defense.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/a ... 2022-12-04
.

[bud fox]

This was the 3rd and 14 play just before half. Hurts threw to the uncovered D Smith for 13 yards prompting them to go for it on 4th and 1 and ultimately score before the half.

The Packers had called a timeout prior to this play to conserve clock and set the defense. This is what we got.

(1:10 - 2nd) Timeout #1 by GB at 01:10.

3rd & 14 at PHI 48
(1:10 - 2nd) (Shotgun) J.Hurts pass short left to D.Smith to GB 39 for 13 yards (Q.Walker; J.Alexander). GB-I.McDuffie was injured during the play.

I mean, it's just criminal.

Amos just looks awful this year.

Poor play by Jaire - reaction and break on the ball was so slow.