From Lambeau to Lombardi, Holmgren, McCarthy and LaFleur and from Starr to Favre, Rodgers and now Jordan Love we’re talking Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers football. This Packers Forum is the place to talk NFL football and everything Packers. So, pull up a keyboard, make yourself at home and let’s talk some Packers football.
Payton is better despite similar records on-paper because Payton's side of the ball (offense) always performs well, even in their down seasons.
His offenses were good, even great, in losing seasons; it's just that NO's defenses those years were historically bad (and they correctly fired the coaches responsible, i.e. the D-Coords, not Payton) so his good offenses couldn't outscore the opponent.
In McCarthy's bad years, the offenses (his responsibility) were bad. Not sure if that was the case in Dallas last year; I was not paying attention. And frankly, he got away with a lot of mediocrity after 2011, Rodgers winning with pure talent after we would get off to slow starts every year, until we could no longer rely on 12 going Godgers mode.
If Payton comes back and his offense sucks, it will be a first for him.
It could be said that it was mostly Brees for Payton as 2006 to 2020 were all top 10ish offenses, but 2021, without Brees, was a bottom half offense.
To which I would say: Brees was not an elite natural talent comparable to Rodgers, nor playing at an elite level before coming to NO.
What was special about Brees and Payton in NO was their symbiotic relationship in engineering those offenses, which again -never- had a bad year.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
To which I would say: Brees was not an elite natural talent comparable to Rodgers, nor playing at an elite level before coming to NO.
Not sure either thing can be be definitely said. Rodgers took some years to groom, similar to Brees and Brees did have a Pro Bowl nod before NO. Rodgers definitely a better talent comparing prime to prime.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Payton is better despite similar records on-paper because Payton's side of the ball (offense) always performs well, even in their down seasons.
His offenses were good, even great, in losing seasons; it's just that NO's defenses those years were historically bad (and they correctly fired the coaches responsible, i.e. the D-Coords, not Payton) so his good offenses couldn't outscore the opponent.
In McCarthy's bad years, the offenses (his responsibility) were bad. Not sure if that was the case in Dallas last year; I was not paying attention. And frankly, he got away with a lot of mediocrity after 2011, Rodgers winning with pure talent after we would get off to slow starts every year, until we could no longer rely on 12 going Godgers mode.
If Payton comes back and his offense sucks, it will be a first for him.
It could be said that it was mostly Brees for Payton as 2006 to 2020 were all top 10ish offenses, but 2021, without Brees, was a bottom half offense.
Did he ever give a reason for quitting the Saints?
To which I would say: Brees was not an elite natural talent comparable to Rodgers, nor playing at an elite level before coming to NO.
Not sure either thing can be be definitely said. Rodgers took some years to groom, similar to Brees and Brees did have a Pro Bowl nod before NO. Rodgers definitely a better talent comparing prime to prime.
Rodgers's god-given talent (e.g. arm tools and such) was always elite, though. Before his unexpected draft slide, lots of people thought he'd go #1 overall. His pure physical ability/upside to be a HOF QB was never in question, whatever other doubts/concerns (most notably, Tedford coaching) they may have had.
Brees was a Round 2 guy, god-given talent at the position was good/adequate but not special. I doubt many people expected a HOF career.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
To which I would say: Brees was not an elite natural talent comparable to Rodgers, nor playing at an elite level before coming to NO.
Not sure either thing can be be definitely said. Rodgers took some years to groom, similar to Brees and Brees did have a Pro Bowl nod before NO. Rodgers definitely a better talent comparing prime to prime.
Rodgers's god-given talent (e.g. arm tools and such) was always elite, though. Before his unexpected draft slide, lots of people thought he'd go #1 overall. His pure physical ability/upside to be a HOF QB was never in question, whatever other doubts/concerns (most notably, Tedford coaching) they may have had.
Brees was a Round 2 guy, god-given talent at the position was good/adequate but not special. I doubt many people expected a HOF career.
Is a HOF ever expected? It definitely was not for Rodgers either.
Does that then mean that Tom Brady had little god given talent because he was a 6th round pick?
I can't get onboard with draft slot definitively meaning more talent
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Not sure either thing can be be definitely said. Rodgers took some years to groom, similar to Brees and Brees did have a Pro Bowl nod before NO. Rodgers definitely a better talent comparing prime to prime.
Rodgers's god-given talent (e.g. arm tools and such) was always elite, though. Before his unexpected draft slide, lots of people thought he'd go #1 overall. His pure physical ability/upside to be a HOF QB was never in question, whatever other doubts/concerns (most notably, Tedford coaching) they may have had.
Brees was a Round 2 guy, god-given talent at the position was good/adequate but not special. I doubt many people expected a HOF career.
Is a HOF ever expected? It definitely was not for Rodgers either.
Does that then mean that Tom Brady had little god given talent because he was a 6th round pick?
I can't get onboard with draft slot definitively meaning more talent
No, I am saying Rodgers's physical ability (namely ability to hit every throw with zip and accuracy) to be elite was apparent since college, which is why he was a consensus 1st-rounder. He fell to the 20s mainly because Tedford QBs were all busts in the NFL and Rodgers would have to rework his technique, and he didn't impress with his athletic tests e.g. 40 time.
Brees and Brady's physical ability (or on-field performance, for that matter) to be elite was not similarly apparent, which is why they did not go high in the draft.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
Rodgers's god-given talent (e.g. arm tools and such) was always elite, though. Before his unexpected draft slide, lots of people thought he'd go #1 overall. His pure physical ability/upside to be a HOF QB was never in question, whatever other doubts/concerns (most notably, Tedford coaching) they may have had.
Brees was a Round 2 guy, god-given talent at the position was good/adequate but not special. I doubt many people expected a HOF career.
Is a HOF ever expected? It definitely was not for Rodgers either.
Does that then mean that Tom Brady had little god given talent because he was a 6th round pick?
I can't get onboard with draft slot definitively meaning more talent
No, I am saying Rodgers's physical ability (namely ability to hit every throw with zip and accuracy) to be elite was apparent since college, which is why he was a consensus 1st-rounder. He fell to the 20s mainly because Tedford QBs were all busts in the NFL and Rodgers would have to rework his technique, and he didn't impress with his athletic tests e.g. 40 time.
Brees and Brady's physical ability (or on-field performance, for that matter) to be elite was not similarly apparent, which is why they did not go high in the draft.
Well, that went down a rabbit hole. All I was saying is that it isn't yet clear if Payton can head an elite offense without Brees. He didn't do so in NO nor did he as OC with the Giants.
Honestly, he also may be too pass happy for today's NFL.
Just FYI, Brees went 7 slots after Rodgers.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Because LaFleur's football vibe is rated a D. There's nothing left to get excited about. He lacks the ability to inspire greatness.
from who, in order to inspire greatness first you have to have players capable enough to be great, and that sure as hell wasn't Lazard or MVS, nor is it guys like Dequara or the other jags that have revolved through the doors of 1265
don't know why fans think Lafluer isn't a capable coach, or that the offensive schemes he brought to the team are less then sound ball management schemes that better skill position players or blocking can't produce better success.
If fans can't see the similarity" between what was on display from the 49ers Saturday and Lafluers offenses even with just Adam and Jones prior to this dismal season go buy some glasses.
You're right Yooper. We've got Gutey, not Wolf or Vainisi.
Brees had plenty of talent in San Diego. And so many people knew it too. But the Chargers also had a guy named Rivers. That’s who the Chargers put their stock in.
Where Rivers had a strong arm and could throw every pattern, Brees had a precision that only a few QBs can match. That much was commonly accepted by a number of fans and coaches.
Come on down and try some of our delicious green chili! Best in the world!
Brees had plenty of talent in San Diego. And so many people knew it too. But the Chargers also had a guy named Rivers. That’s who the Chargers put their stock in.
Where Rivers had a strong arm and could throw every pattern, Brees had a precision that only a few QBs can match. That much was commonly accepted by a number of fans and coaches.
You make my point, brees was discarded for Phillip Rivers.
Because LaFleur's football vibe is rated a D. There's nothing left to get excited about. He lacks the ability to inspire greatness.
from who, in order to inspire greatness first you have to have players capable enough to be great, and that sure as hell wasn't Lazard or MVS, nor is it guys like Dequara or the other jags that have revolved through the doors of 1265
don't know why fans think Lafluer isn't a capable coach, or that the offensive schemes he brought to the team are less then sound ball management schemes that better skill position players or blocking can't produce better success.
If fans can't see the similarity" between what was on display from the 49ers Saturday and Lafluers offenses even with just Adam and Jones prior to this dismal season go buy some glasses.
You're right Yooper. We've got Gutey, not Wolf or Vainisi.
did ya read what I brought about Billy Nunn, the other great scout who was never given the title of GM
Within minutes of answering the phone, Wooten, a former NFL offensive lineman-turned-NFL-scout and executive, recounts that fateful day in 1974 when he, and the rest of the scouting community, were bested by his buddy, Bill Nunn Jr. Nunn was one of the architects of the Pittsburgh Steelers dynasty of the 1970s.
anyway I disagree with your take of Lafleur, I do think he inspires the players, he's just not as flamboyant about it as others are or what you want, his offensive schemes are about the same as Shanahans and McVays, who also are low key coaches, the reason there not as productive is health issues with OL and the inexperience with skill position players.
I havn't been in favor of his coaching hires, but I have my doubts that any where first choice prospects
Just last year he was one of the hot candidates for a HC gig but decided to stay with the Bucs another year. Now he’s unemployed because “his” offense sucked. Unfortunate for him and much like Rodgers in Green Bay, it wasn’t “his” offense - it was Brady’s.
Byron Leftwich has always been extremely overrated. Whenever he gets to run the show without Arians, the offenses always take a big step back. Not a coincidence.
Just last year he was one of the hot candidates for a HC gig but decided to stay with the Bucs another year. Now he’s unemployed because “his” offense sucked. Unfortunate for him and much like Rodgers in Green Bay, it wasn’t “his” offense - it was Brady’s.
nonsense, you don't insult Rodgers with this comment, you insult everyone above him, people that think Rodgers or Brady run there respective offenses do so thinking it's a rub on those QB's, no, it's a slam at there coaches, the GM, and the president of football operations, and his supporting cast of players.
do these QB's make on field changes? of course they do, but those play changes where designed by there coaches with possible input from those QB's, Rodgers doesn't run this offense any more then Brady did the Bucs.
Just last year he was one of the hot candidates for a HC gig but decided to stay with the Bucs another year. Now he’s unemployed because “his” offense sucked. Unfortunate for him and much like Rodgers in Green Bay, it wasn’t “his” offense - it was Brady’s.
nonsense, you don't insult Rodgers with this comment, you insult everyone above him, people that think Rodgers or Brady run there respective offenses do so thinking it's a rub on those QB's, no, it's a slam at there coaches, the GM, and the president of football operations, and his supporting cast of players.
do these QB's make on field changes? of course they do, but those play changes where designed by there coaches with possible input from those QB's, Rodgers doesn't run this offense any more then Brady did the Bucs.
I was thiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to adding a blurb saying “watch, Yoop will be here responding in defense of Brady any minute now” and….voila!
Ravens can OC Roman. If the bears were smart at all (they aren’t) they would can Getsy and hire Roman immediately. Roman made Lamar look like an nfl qb and built a glorious run game. Chicago should let him turn fields into a lamar, focus on running the ball, and rebuild that defense.
