Rodgers Watch 2023

[Scott4Pack]

MVS on the Packers = JAG
MVS on the Chiefs = competent WR

I think MVS has been a competent WR with the Pack. Did he meet expectations? Maybe not. Didn’t we all want him to open up the top of every defense we faced? But he was good. Put him in the WR2 ranks on most teams. Packers wanted him to be WR2++.

Don’t forget that MVS also was a good blocker, right behind Lazard.

he was a #2 for us because we didn't have a #2 receiver, you could say MVS, Lazard, Allison, and the other jags in that room where all #2's, the point is after Adams we had to many inconsistent receivers, Rodgers didn't just decide to only throw to Adams.

and why is it when we are talking about receivers there blocking ability gets mentioned, no one drafts receivers for there blocking ability, that stuff becomes a priority once there on the team

basically ya need more then just one receiver that a defense has to game plan to stop, at times that was MVS, but not often enough, same with Lazard and the rest of the jags, I can't believe any one would defend the skills of Lazard, or even MVS.

take Rodgers out of the mix the last 4 years and this team doesn't make the PO's

Oh, sounds like you are thinking about how a good team should have 4-5 great WRs at a time. I’m not doing that. I’m looking across the league. And as I mentioned, I think that MVS would be a better WR2 than many teams have.

[Labrev]

Kelce was 6th in the entire league in targets...thats for everyone-Rbs, WRs, and TEs....there are only so many snaps in a game...the idea that Kelce getting such a large share of the percentage of targets doesnt hamper other pass catchers targets is insane lol.

To get just under 1000 yards and share the field with Kelce is actually incredible.

If while Adams was in GB, if we had another WR even sniff 900+ yards we would think that was amazing

Yeah except I can easily prove this theory wrong with the example I used (that you noticeably didn't address).

Cobb had a career year when "competing" with targets with Jordy in 2014, while in 2015 he had half as many scores and ~450 less yards with Jordy on IR all year and Cobb the *CLEAR* top target.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_ ... ndall-cobb

Were there truth to this supposed Law of football that being the top target necessarily yields better statistical production, then Cobb should have broken his 2014 career highs.

Instead, he did not even MATCH his previous personal bests. He played all 16 games in both seasons, too.

What I'm arguing isn't even a very novel idea or one that's original to me, much less an "insane" concept. The idea that star players OPEN UP opportunities for their teammates is a well-known phenomenon that at this point even casual football fans can catch onto.

*edit*
I'm not saying this ALWAYS happens; sometimes a WR's stats do suffer due to competing with another. But there are some WRs who just aren't going to produce as much if they don't have better guys drawing defenses' attention away. OBJ or Robert Woods could have produced more without Cooper Kupp, because those two can actually be WR1s. Cobb could not produce more without Jordy, because he's not a true WR1. Neither is Juju.

[Labrev]

By the way, I also notice you did not answer this question I posed:

If you're an opposing defense, who would you rather make KC try to beat you with: the HOF-bound Kelce, the guy who runs 4.37, or Juju's slow ass?

How about you, yoop, wanna take a stab at it?

[Yoop]

I think MVS has been a competent WR with the Pack. Did he meet expectations? Maybe not. Didn’t we all want him to open up the top of every defense we faced? But he was good. Put him in the WR2 ranks on most teams. Packers wanted him to be WR2++.

Don’t forget that MVS also was a good blocker, right behind Lazard.

he was a #2 for us because we didn't have a #2 receiver, you could say MVS, Lazard, Allison, and the other jags in that room where all #2's, the point is after Adams we had to many inconsistent receivers, Rodgers didn't just decide to only throw to Adams.

and why is it when we are talking about receivers there blocking ability gets mentioned, no one drafts receivers for there blocking ability, that stuff becomes a priority once there on the team

basically ya need more then just one receiver that a defense has to game plan to stop, at times that was MVS, but not often enough, same with Lazard and the rest of the jags, I can't believe any one would defend the skills of Lazard, or even MVS.

take Rodgers out of the mix the last 4 years and this team doesn't make the PO's

Oh, sounds like you are thinking about how a good team should have 4-5 great WRs at a time. I’m not doing that. I’m looking across the league. And as I mentioned, I think that MVS would be a better WR2 than many teams have.

I didn't say that Scott, never has been that we had to have 3 or 4 great receivers, rather, ya needed a stronger presence at the #2 spot, wouldn't hurt at all either to have a quality TE, it's a night and day difference when a DC has to scheme to stop 2 good/great receivers, and having more then just one means you still have one when injuries take one out, look how we went from explosive to near nothing when Watson was hurt

unless a receiver actually hurts a defense all they will donate to covering him is one guy, MVS improved his last season or two with us, but not enough to force defenses into 2 high or tight zones, why? because mostly MVS was a inconsistent receiver, and his catch rate attest to that, thats the biggest reason we let him walk for 10 mil. we could have figured out a way to keep him, and we probably should have, but imo it was the inconsistency that got him a bus ticket

In PO games we had Adams, and Jones, and thats just not enough when your facing a top 10 or better defense

[Yoop]

By the way, I also notice you did not answer this question I posed:

If you're an opposing defense, who would you rather make KC try to beat you with: the HOF-bound Kelce, the guy who runs 4.37, or Juju's slow ass?

How about you, yoop, wanna take a stab at it?

there are stats galore for you to post any scenario to support your point.
we all know that having more then one receiver that a DC has account for with safety help, the easier it is for the more average receivers to find space or beat zone coverages, thats why your argument is senseless, your simply being stubborn with reality

your argument concerning Cobb doing better because DC had to respect Nelson makes that point, Nelson drug the coverage and Cobb had room to exploit the open spaces left behind, again your playing with stats to make these decisions, and we both know players aren't always able to repeat the same production year after year.

bottom line is this, we didn't spend enough resources at the receiver position as we should have, instead focused most resources on a defense that has never gained top 10 status, not only did we not have enough skill position talent, it hampered success on ST's to, and that defense couldn't hold a lead so the offense could win us the important games.

instead of focusing your blame on the QB, you should walk in to Gutekunst office and punch him in the nose, he's as much to blame for our PO losses as Rodgers is.

[Drj820]

Kelce was 6th in the entire league in targets...thats for everyone-Rbs, WRs, and TEs....there are only so many snaps in a game...the idea that Kelce getting such a large share of the percentage of targets doesnt hamper other pass catchers targets is insane lol.

To get just under 1000 yards and share the field with Kelce is actually incredible.

If while Adams was in GB, if we had another WR even sniff 900+ yards we would think that was amazing

Yeah except I can easily prove this theory wrong with the example I used (that you noticeably didn't address).

Cobb had a career year when "competing" with targets with Jordy in 2014, while in 2015 he had half as many scores and ~450 less yards with Jordy on IR all year and Cobb the *CLEAR* top target.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_ ... ndall-cobb

Were there truth to this supposed Law of football that being the top target necessarily yields better statistical production, then Cobb should have broken his 2014 career highs.

Instead, he did not even MATCH his previous personal bests. He played all 16 games in both seasons, too.

What I'm arguing isn't even a very novel idea or one that's original to me, much less an "insane" concept. The idea that star players OPEN UP opportunities for their teammates is a well-known phenomenon that at this point even casual football fans can catch onto.

*edit*
I'm not saying this ALWAYS happens; sometimes a WR's stats do suffer due to competing with another. But there are some WRs who just aren't going to produce as much if they don't have better guys drawing defenses' attention away. OBJ or Robert Woods could have produced more without Cooper Kupp, because those two can actually be WR1s. Cobb could not produce more without Jordy, because he's not a true WR1. Neither is Juju.

wait lol you think because Cobbs yardages went down after 2014 (a year with near historic offensive production), that alone disproves a "theory" that if one receiver takes up the 6th most targets in the league, that this might cut into others chances to receive targets? hahaha

Cobb isnt some great example. He still had more yards in 2018 as the one than Lazard had in 2022.

My original point again is that Kelce and Juju are maybe the Weakest of the duos in the championship weekend, yet they still stand far superior to the Packers duo of Lazard or Tonyan, or Lazard and Watkins, or Lazard and Cobb...or whatever joker you want to include for our #2 that we went into the year with.

So when you look at the duos in the championship game, and you look what we trotted out there...its no surprise the packers are sitting at home.
Go three deep and openly include TEs and the picture becomes even more obvious why we are at home:

Jamar, Tee, Hurst
Deebo, Aiyuk, Kittle
Davanta Smith, AJ Brown, Goeddert
JuJu, MVS, Kelce (weakest of group, but when you factor in Andy Reid and Mahommes..no surprise to me)

Packer: Watkins, Lazard, Tonyan (lol)

Whats to argue?

[Drj820]

By the way, I also notice you did not answer this question I posed:

If you're an opposing defense, who would you rather make KC try to beat you with: the HOF-bound Kelce, the guy who runs 4.37, or Juju's slow ass?

How about you, yoop, wanna take a stab at it?

I would rather Juju try to beat me. Only problem with your theory though is no one actually stopped Kelce lol

He still got a large majority of the targets. So much so that only 5 WRs in the league saw the ball more than her did. If a qb is throwing to one guy the 6th most times in the league, i hate to break the news...but that affects other players target shares.

Your theory would work if teams put 2 or 3 guys on Kelce, shut him down, and that forced targets to go elsewhere to guys like Juju. Another thing, top corners dont cover kelce, those guys are still available to cover juju.

And again, we started the year with Lazard, Cobb, Watkins, and Doubs...Juju was cheap...is your point that we wouldnt have been better with Juju?

I would think Juju, Lazard, Cobb, and Doubs is better than without him.

[go pak go]

Yoop. That's how playoffs work. Two to three plays is literally the difference.

It worked for us in 2010. Against us all the other years.

It's a insult for you to ever think I would agree, go back to any PO game including 2010 and you will see QB's not throwing to open receivers, the QB has far to much to think about during a 2 to 3 second span to see 60 yards wide and all the traffic in between not to miss open receivers.

all 22 and overheads obviously can pick them out, but thats hardly the view a player on the field gets, and you can pick any QB apart in every game for not spotting a open receiver

Of course QBs miss open receivers. And of course they should be evaluated for it.

My gawd. What a crazy concept.

[NCF]

there are stats galore for you to post any scenario to support your point.

Wish I could say the same for you.

[Labrev]

DrJ,

The problem with your argument is that it takes --for granted-- a fixed amount of targets that a team can distribute among receivers however it chooses.

In the ideal/abstract world, sure, you can suppose stuff like: "what if we kept all things equal (assume same aggregate # of targets) but increased Juju's share of targets"... and then yeah, your theory would hold up.

But in the real/material world, you can't just keep all things equal; "targets" only exist to the extent you have an offense that can stay on the field and call that many pass plays in the first place.

---------
So if KC for some strange reason decided to try to "feature" Juju rather than their best weapon (Kelce), what would more likely actually happen is the total output of their O would go down drastically, because Juju is just -not- equipped to be a guy that an offense can run through like Kelce is: he's not as dynamic as Kelce, he's not nearly as hard for opposing defenses to cover, he does not have the sage vet wisdom Kelce has at this point. My argument is, there would *less* targets, catches, yards, etc. to go around than with Kelce as the guy right now.

Simply put, the thing that happened to Cobb between '14 and '15 would happen to him.

You can run an offense though a Jordy or Kelce. You can't run it through a Cobb, which is why NOT being WR1 was actually *more* productive for him. Juju is not Jordy or Kelce, he is Cobb. And that's why no team, not even his current team, pays him to be a feature WR. They actually value MVS more than him, both in terms of $ and snaps.

[Drj820]

DrJ,

The problem with your argument is that it takes --for granted-- a fixed amount of targets that a team can distribute among receivers however it chooses.

In the ideal/abstract world, sure, you can suppose stuff like: "what if we kept all things equal (assume same aggregate # of targets) but increased Juju's share of targets"... and then yeah, your theory would hold up.

But in the real/material world, you can't just keep all things equal; "targets" only exist to the extent you have an offense that can stay on the field and call that many pass plays in the first place.

---------
So if KC for some strange reason decided to try to "feature" Juju rather than their best weapon (Kelce), what would more likely actually happen is the total output of their O would go down drastically, because Juju is just -not- equipped to be a guy that an offense can run through like Kelce is: he's not as dynamic as Kelce, he's not nearly as hard for opposing defenses to cover, he does not have the sage vet wisdom Kelce has at this point. My argument is, there would *less* targets, catches, yards, etc. to go around than with Kelce as the guy right now.

Simply put, the thing that happened to Cobb between '14 and '15 would happen to him.

You can run an offense though a Jordy or Kelce. You can't run it through a Cobb, which is why NOT being WR1 was actually *more* productive for him. Juju is not Jordy or Kelce, he is Cobb. And that's why no team, not even his current team, pays him to be a feature WR. They actually value MVS more than him, both in terms of $ and snaps.

do you think not think our offense would have been better week one 2022 with Juju on the roster?

Because thats my argument. That Juju has had seasons with over 1400 yards before, that he is #2 pass catcher in the offense behind Kelce, and that Juju (who was cheap) would have been a far better option for the O than Watkins.

Another point is my original point that Kelce and Juju and better by far than any combo of pass catchers we have and thus...its no surprise they are in the finals and we are not.

[APB]

Ya'lls points have become so convoluted I have no idea the arguments you boys are even making anymore...

[texas]

Tonyan isn't the guy to compare to Kelce. Kelce is their one elite weapon on O. Ours is Jones.

The TE position to us is what the RB position is to them. They're underwhelming there despite constant efforts to try to improve it.

Their top rusher this season only had 60 more yards than AJ Dillon, and fewer TDs.

Nah, Pacheco is really good. I drafted him and held him in my fantasy leagues because it was obvious that he would be their starter eventually. He's the first real talent they've had at RB in a while. And actually, it might not be that KC's RBs suck despite constant efforts to improve, rather, it might just be that CEH sucks. Because the guys prior to him were all good. And it could also be scheme because now that they have Mahomes, why even feature a guy like CEH?

[Scott4Pack]

You can run an offense though a Jordy or Kelce. You can't run it through a Cobb, which is why NOT being WR1 was actually *more* productive for him. Juju is not Jordy or Kelce, he is Cobb. And that's why no team, not even his current team, pays him to be a feature WR. They actually value MVS more than him, both in terms of $ and snaps.

Careful how you spread that info around. It might lead some people to think that MVS is potentially a WR2-ish guy.
Lol

[Labrev]

You can run an offense though a Jordy or Kelce. You can't run it through a Cobb, which is why NOT being WR1 was actually *more* productive for him. Juju is not Jordy or Kelce, he is Cobb. And that's why no team, not even his current team, pays him to be a feature WR. They actually value MVS more than him, both in terms of $ and snaps.

do you think not think our offense would have been better week one 2022 with Juju on the roster?

Because thats my argument. That Juju has had seasons with over 1400 yards before, that he is #2 pass catcher in the offense behind Kelce, and that Juju (who was cheap) would have been a far better option for the O than Watkins.

Another point is my original point that Kelce and Juju and better by far than any combo of pass catchers we have and thus...its no surprise they are in the finals and we are not.

I will give you this: yes, he would have been appreciably better than Watkins at one receiver position.

It would have been a very awkward offense because Lazard/Shuster/Cobb basically amounts to trotting out three slot receivers, but Watkins being more of a boundary guy didn't actually help much, so...

Do I believe Juju would have given us the production he had in KC? No, see previous posts.

Do I think he would have improved this offense appreciably? Also no; I think we are still a mediocre overall unit with him. A somewhat better mediocre, but still mediocre.

[Yoop]

Ya'lls points have become so convoluted I have no idea the arguments you boys are even making anymore...

who's points are convoluted? the only one here using what if scenarios is Labrev.

[Labrev]

Tonyan isn't the guy to compare to Kelce. Kelce is their one elite weapon on O. Ours is Jones.

The TE position to us is what the RB position is to them. They're underwhelming there despite constant efforts to try to improve it.

Their top rusher this season only had 60 more yards than AJ Dillon, and fewer TDs.

Nah, Pacheco is really good. I drafted him and held him in my fantasy leagues because it was obvious that he would be their starter eventually. He's the first real talent they've had at RB in a while. And actually, it might not be that KC's RBs suck despite constant efforts to improve, rather, it might just be that CEH sucks. Because the guys prior to him were all good. And it could also be scheme because now that they have Mahomes, why even feature a guy like CEH?

Pacheco does look like he can play, I will agree. They just didn't get much production from the RB group this year.

Dunno if he can be "the guy." He's a nice runner, but he's pretty small. Not sure if Aaron Jones, or Ronald Jones.

[Yoop]

You can run an offense though a Jordy or Kelce. You can't run it through a Cobb, which is why NOT being WR1 was actually *more* productive for him. Juju is not Jordy or Kelce, he is Cobb. And that's why no team, not even his current team, pays him to be a feature WR. They actually value MVS more than him, both in terms of $ and snaps.

Careful how you spread that info around. It might lead some people to think that MVS is potentially a WR2-ish guy.
Lol

no Coach in this league would purposely depend on Scantling to be his #2 receiver, the only reason would be do to injury, last season he had a 47% catch rate, this season 51%, receivers
with that bad a catch rate don't get to be #2 receivers Scott, he rounds his routes and doesn't have good hands, he got 10 mil from KC because his speed is exceptional, and that forces a deep safety to pay attention, but thats it, and he's peaked, there is no more to expect from MVS. sorry to disagree Buddy

[go pak go]

Ya'lls points have become so convoluted I have no idea the arguments you boys are even making anymore...

who's points are convoluted? the only one here using what if scenarios is Labrev.

Oh come on yoop. Your entire existence on this forum has literally been:

"Rodgers would have X Super Bowls if Gutey drafted WRs in a specific range of rounds from 2016 - 2020."

[go pak go]

You can run an offense though a Jordy or Kelce. You can't run it through a Cobb, which is why NOT being WR1 was actually *more* productive for him. Juju is not Jordy or Kelce, he is Cobb. And that's why no team, not even his current team, pays him to be a feature WR. They actually value MVS more than him, both in terms of $ and snaps.

Careful how you spread that info around. It might lead some people to think that MVS is potentially a WR2-ish guy.
Lol

no Coach in this league would purposely depend on Scantling to be his #2 receiver, the only reason would be do to injury, last season he had a 47% catch rate, this season 51%, receivers
with that bad a catch rate don't get to be #2 receivers Scott, he rounds his routes and doesn't have good hands, he got 10 mil from KC because his speed is exceptional, and that forces a deep safety to pay attention, but thats it, and he's peaked, there is no more to expect from MVS. sorry to disagree Buddy

Well now that we are in the "if" game. We don't need to play the hypothetical of a coach purposely depending on MVS being a #2 receiver because we know Andy Reid did.

The Chiefs actively signed MVS to #2 WR money. You only throw 8 figures at a person when you expect a significant role. A starting a role. A #2 role.