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I have said consistently that there is a pull of the jersey that is, by rule, a penalty. Your last paragraph is where most of us are at. It's a penalty, but ticky-tack, one that is not called many times throughout the season and probably instances in that game where it was not called. As stated before the inconsistency is what bothers me and calling it then when not before. It made a very exciting game end with a bit of a flop.
No, the snap of the ball replay shows the whole play from the wide angle. The "focus on JuJu to review the penalty" replay cuts in a bit late.
And yeah, you're all sort of there, but you've been arguing about if it should be called on and off for 3 pages when the ref, the expert, and the guy who committed the penalty have all said it's valid. "Hoping they'd let it slide" is the best defense Bradberry could give; not even "normally they let it slide." If you see the jersey pulled away from the receiver on a cut, they throw the flag almost every time. It's unfortunate that it happened, but it's not unusual or "rarely called." And I have seen no examples of plays in this game where it wasn't called, nor would finding one or two matter since refs can only call what they see.
Like I'm sorry there was a penalty and it dampened the viewing experience, but it's not on the league or the ref. It's on James Bradberry.
Last edited by YoHoChecko on 13 Feb 2023 14:31, edited 1 time in total.
Let's take a look at that incompletion first called a fumble.
Point of catch:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.29 PM.png
Shoulder turn:
image.png
Point of ball loose:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.56 PM.png
Looked like a fumble real time. The “football move” thing is questionable but no clear and decisive evidence to change the original call. Interestingly and inconsistently this is would be a clear fumble if the player was catching a punt instead and established possession before getting blasted without another “football move”
You can watch it live on the link provided. It was so bang bang that it was hard to pause a moment that was not the catch or hit. The right foot never moves from catch to hit and the left foot never gets past the right. I find it hard to say that is a football move.
A punt is live once it touches the receiving player on a punt. The player never has to gain possession of the ball on a punt for it to become live.
Somewhat agree on both points, but if bang bang then why change the call? He has the ball, crow hops and partially turns upfield before being hit. He clearly doesn’t see the hit coming but should that matter?
For the punt reference the point I was trying to make is that return coverage needs to let a catch happen but not wait for a football move before attempting to dislodge the ball. So if timed right the same hit would be a fumble without question.
Let's take a look at that incompletion first called a fumble.
Point of catch:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.29 PM.png
Shoulder turn:
image.png
Point of ball loose:
Screenshot 2023-02-13 1.45.56 PM.png
and you don't think that turn constituted a football move, he had control and obviously turned to run, I don't think the officials got that right, Philly got the compliment of the refs there buddy,
No, a turn is not a football move to me. He turns, but never gets a foot forward to run.
No need for that last condescending comment.
which of those 9 words seemed condescending to you, I thought it was a pleasant reply, your problem is your so thin skinned any remark offends you, I think because that the position you want to take with everyone who disagrees with you.
any movement after a secured catch is a football move imo
I have to go back and rewatch it it, but I’m pretty sure the ball was thrown away.
No, it was thrown in the back left corner of the end zone. It was an attempt to get the TD and it probably would have been if not for the grabbing of the DB.
Doubtful, it was a 5 yard "overthrow." The grab of the jersey did not hinder him enough to make up for those 5 yards.
I agree. I don't see where it slowed him down at all. No way that pass is complete, hold or not. I see nowhere that he was slowed down on his route.
Holy crap! We agree on something. Watch out for fire and brimstone raining from the heavens!
Looked like a fumble real time. The “football move” thing is questionable but no clear and decisive evidence to change the original call. Interestingly and inconsistently this is would be a clear fumble if the player was catching a punt instead and established possession before getting blasted without another “football move”
You can watch it live on the link provided. It was so bang bang that it was hard to pause a moment that was not the catch or hit. The right foot never moves from catch to hit and the left foot never gets past the right. I find it hard to say that is a football move.
A punt is live once it touches the receiving player on a punt. The player never has to gain possession of the ball on a punt for it to become live.
Somewhat agree on both points, but if bang bang then why change the call? He has the ball, crow hops and partially turns upfield before being hit. He clearly doesn’t see the hit coming but should that matter?
For the punt reference the point I was trying to make is that return coverage needs to let a catch happen but not wait for a football move before attempting to dislodge the ball. So if timed right the same hit would be a fumble without question.
Ya, the punt is interesting because in all other levels of football the player receiving the punt must be given a yard to do so. Not so in the NFL.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
and you don't think that turn constituted a football move, he had control and obviously turned to run, I don't think the officials got that right, Philly got the compliment of the refs there buddy,
No, a turn is not a football move to me. He turns, but never gets a foot forward to run.
No need for that last condescending comment.
which of those 9 words seemed condescending to you, I thought it was a pleasant reply, your problem is your so thin skinned any remark offends you, I think because that the position you want to take with everyone who disagrees with you.
any movement after a secured catch is a football move imo
It is simply not true that any movement is considered a football move. Would a turn of the head or shoulders be considered a football move? Even in the rulebook, a third step is provided as an example of a football move. See link in post above.
One does not refer to another as "buddy" and not mean it condescendingly when the 2 are definitely not buddies.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
nothing ticky tacky about that call, it was blatent interference, and it did slow down the process of running the route, I can't believe where at 3 pages arguing about something as obvious as that PI call.
low scoring defensive games is why it took so long for football to attract the masses we see today that follow this game, even the most die hard fans become bored with 17 to 14 games, fans want scoring, and allowing these PI's just defeats that purpose, thats why it gets a 5 yrd penalty and a first down.
No, a turn is not a football move to me. He turns, but never gets a foot forward to run.
No need for that last condescending comment.
which of those 9 words seemed condescending to you, I thought it was a pleasant reply, your problem is your so thin skinned any remark offends you, I think because that the position you want to take with everyone who disagrees with you.
any movement after a secured catch is a football move imo
It is simply not true that any movement is considered a football move. Would a turn of the head or shoulders be considered a football move? Even in the rulebook, a third step is provided as an example of a football move. See link in post above.
One does not refer to another as "buddy" and not mean it condescendingly when the 2 are definitely not buddies.
Come on now, buddy.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Just so you know, I wouldn't hesitate buying you a beer.
No, a turn is not a football move to me. He turns, but never gets a foot forward to run.
No need for that last condescending comment.
which of those 9 words seemed condescending to you, I thought it was a pleasant reply, your problem is your so thin skinned any remark offends you, I think because that the position you want to take with everyone who disagrees with you.
any movement after a secured catch is a football move imo
It is simply not true that any movement is considered a football move. Would a turn of the head or shoulders be considered a football move? Even in the rulebook, a third step is provided as an example of a football move. See link in post above.
One does not refer to another as "buddy" and not mean it condescendingly when the 2 are definitely not buddies.
I meant a move of the Body, well now that I know you don't want to be a buddy, nice to hear your viewpoint on our relationship by the way after all that clearing up a week or so back I wont consider you one.
which of those 9 words seemed condescending to you, I thought it was a pleasant reply, your problem is your so thin skinned any remark offends you, I think because that the position you want to take with everyone who disagrees with you.
any movement after a secured catch is a football move imo
It is simply not true that any movement is considered a football move. Would a turn of the head or shoulders be considered a football move? Even in the rulebook, a third step is provided as an example of a football move. See link in post above.
One does not refer to another as "buddy" and not mean it condescendingly when the 2 are definitely not buddies.
Come on now, buddy.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Just so you know, I wouldn't hesitate buying you a beer.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
James Bradberry stood at his locker dressed in all black. Black jacket, black shirt, black pants and black shoes. The color was fitting for a player grieving a heartbreaking Super Bowl loss and a very personal mistake. But Bradberry, the seven-year veteran, was not angry or vengeful. He wasn’t in denial or making any excuses.
In fact, he didn’t even know that anyone who isn’t a Chiefs fan thought he’d been cheated by the officials.
“I haven’t checked Twitter or anything, so I don’t know what everybody else is saying about the (holding),” Bradberry said. When informed that most of Twitter was outraged on his behalf, he sighed, and took a long pause to steady himself. “Well,” he said. “It is what it is.
“At the end of the day, I did pull on the jersey a little bit. And according to the rule, by black and white, it’s a (penalty).”
On Wednesday, Roger Goodell was asked about the state of league officiating and the NFL commissioner said, “I don’t think it’s ever been better.”
Naturally, that meant Super Bowl LVII would be decided by one nitpicky penalty.
As the fourth quarter ticked away, it seemed possible we might actually escape this Super Bowl without an officiating controversy. But on third-and-8 at Philadelphia’s 15-yard line with 1:54 left in the game, officials called the Eagles cornerback for defensive holding on an incomplete pass that Chiefs quarterback Patrick Mahomes had intended for wide receiver JuJu Smith-Schuster.
Eagles fans at State Farm Stadium instantly booed, knowing the call meant Kansas City would be awarded an automatic first down at the 11-yard-line, and with Philadelphia only having two timeouts left, the Chiefs could drain the clock before a game-winning field goal attempt — which is exactly what they did, pulling out a 38-35 victory.
“When I saw the flag on the ground, I regretted it,” Bradberry said. “(JuJu) ran a pivot and wheel, so as I was going down with him, I was just trying to …” Bradberry trailed off. “It’s hard to go cover a double move, so I was trying to just get some momentum off of him, to go back out, and I pulled on his jersey and that’s what they called.”
Fox rules analyst Mike Pereira defended the decision on the broadcast. However, a coach for another NFL team not playing in the Super Bowl, who works closely with rules, told The Athletic he didn’t think there was a clear enough restriction on Smith-Schuster to justify a flag. The coach, granted anonymity so he could speak freely, said the same action happens all the time during NFL games and is infrequently, or at least inconsistently, called.
In the opinion of this coach and two more The Athletic contacted after the game, Bradberry’s actions didn’t merit a flag. In their opinion, Bradberry would have needed to redirect or slow down Smith-Schuster in a way that impacted the play. This wasn’t the classic hook and turn where the receiver’s body is spinning or he’s lagging.
A second coach said that by the letter of the law, he can understand why the penalty flag was thrown, though he said calls like this one exist in a gray area of subjectivity that changes from official to official.
Read more: Eagles special season ends in heartbreak after second half collapse vs. Chiefs
Some around the NFL who study officiating closely believe that these gray area calls are too often enforced even when the infractions themselves aren’t clear. There is a sense that officials tend to double down on those kinds of penalties when they aren’t obvious, instead of sticking to calling the clearest examples of them.
“I’ve done that in the past and gotten (called), but I’ve also done it in the past and didn’t get (called),” Bradberry told The Athletic. “So it’s just dependent upon the referees we have that day.”
Super Bowl referee Carl Cheffers defended the decision postgame, saying in the pool report, “It was a clear case of a jersey grab that caused restriction.”
In the NFL rulebook, defensive holding is defined as having occurred when “a player grasps an eligible offensive player (or his jersey) with his hands, or extends an arm or arms to cut off or encircle him.”
Every NFL team scouts officiating crews, and the Eagles are known to be among a handful of teams that spend a lot of time studying the officials and coaching their players to be aware of tendencies and stats on each official.
Bradberry said in the Eagles’ meeting about Cheffers’ Super Bowl crew, he doesn’t remember anything about pass interference coming up, just a few notes for the offensive linemen and defensive linemen regarding how the crew would call the line play.
Consistency is the goal for officiating, but each referee has their own philosophy on how they call a game. When CBS rules analyst Gene Steratore was a referee, his motto for his crew was, “We fish for whales and not for minnows.”
To many, this borderline defensive holding penalty that didn’t appear to clearly restrict Smith-Schuster will feel like a minnow of a call at a whale of a moment.
Bradberry said he’d heard Goodell’s comments about officiating this week, but again, the man in black took the high road.
“I try not to leave the game in the officials’ hands,” he said. “And I did that tonight.”
From the Athletic.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
nothing ticky tacky about that call, it was blatent interference, and it did slow down the process of running the route, I can't believe where at 3 pages arguing about something as obvious as that PI call.
Well, since it wasn't a PI call...
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
I have said consistently that there is a pull of the jersey that is, by rule, a penalty. Your last paragraph is where most of us are at. It's a penalty, but ticky-tack, one that is not called many times throughout the season and probably instances in that game where it was not called. As stated before the inconsistency is what bothers me and calling it then when not before. It made a very exciting game end with a bit of a flop.
No, the snap of the ball replay shows the whole play from the wide angle. The "focus on JuJu to review the penalty" replay cuts in a bit late.
And yeah, you're all sort of there, but you've been arguing about if it should be called on and off for 3 pages when the ref, the expert, and the guy who committed the penalty have all said it's valid. "Hoping they'd let it slide" is the best defense Bradberry could give; not even "normally they let it slide." If you see the jersey pulled away from the receiver on a cut, they throw the flag almost every time. It's unfortunate that it happened, but it's not unusual or "rarely called." And I have seen no examples of plays in this game where it wasn't called, nor would finding one or two matter since refs can only call what they see.
Like I'm sorry there was a penalty and it dampened the viewing experience, but it's not on the league or the ref. It's on James Bradberry.
Yep. This 100%. Don’t be mad at the refs, be mad at the guy that I was to grab a jersey and a 3rd down.
which of those 9 words seemed condescending to you, I thought it was a pleasant reply, your problem is your so thin skinned any remark offends you, I think because that the position you want to take with everyone who disagrees with you.
any movement after a secured catch is a football move imo
It is simply not true that any movement is considered a football move. Would a turn of the head or shoulders be considered a football move? Even in the rulebook, a third step is provided as an example of a football move. See link in post above.
One does not refer to another as "buddy" and not mean it condescendingly when the 2 are definitely not buddies.
I meant a move of the Body, well now that I know you don't want to be a buddy, nice to hear your viewpoint on our relationship by the way after all that clearing up a week or so back I wont consider you one.
Are shoulders not part of the body?
You never considered me a buddy, so don't act as if you did before I said that.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
nothing ticky tacky about that call, it was blatent interference, and it did slow down the process of running the route, I can't believe where at 3 pages arguing about something as obvious as that PI call.
Well, since it wasn't a PI call...
fine, holding, your a nit picking $%@#, I read that article this morning to, what do you think your the only person that reads this stuff, it was the right call, and as YOHO said is always called when a ref see's it, it's common, you drug this out for 3 pages, because thats what you always do, and call me out because I refuse to agree when you twist and turn every conversation to your advantage, and whos the condescending person now, who gives a rats ass if it was holding or PI, so I got the name of the penalty wrong, it amounted to the same thing, a 5 yrd penalty and first down.
It is simply not true that any movement is considered a football move. Would a turn of the head or shoulders be considered a football move? Even in the rulebook, a third step is provided as an example of a football move. See link in post above.
One does not refer to another as "buddy" and not mean it condescendingly when the 2 are definitely not buddies.
I meant a move of the Body, well now that I know you don't want to be a buddy, nice to hear your viewpoint on our relationship by the way after all that clearing up a week or so back I wont consider you one.
Are shoulders not part of the body?
You never considered me a buddy, so don't act as if you did before I said that.
what do you want to do? if your intent is to drudge up the past and whine like some child then F O, you've insulted me, called me every name under the sun for a decade, so ya, we havn't been friends, but my intent has been to be cordial, but you wont do that either, instead it's one argument after another with any comment I make, if the shoes where reversed you'd never have put up with the &%$@ I've taken from you, so knock off the BS.
nothing ticky tacky about that call, it was blatent interference, and it did slow down the process of running the route, I can't believe where at 3 pages arguing about something as obvious as that PI call.
Well, since it wasn't a PI call...
fine, holding, your a nit picking $%@#, I read that article this morning to, what do you think your the only person that reads this stuff, it was the right call, and as YOHO said is always called when a ref see's it, it's common, you drug this out for 3 pages, because thats what you always do, and call me out because I refuse to agree when you twist and turn every conversation to your advantage, and whos the condescending person now, who gives a rats ass if it was holding or PI, so I got the name of the penalty wrong, it amounted to the same thing, a 5 yrd penalty and first down.
Well... it was holding and not pass interference... That's not nitpicking, that's stating the truth. A PI call would have been when the ball was thrown and since it was at the LOS it would have been a first for no additional yards. Let's not get into the nitpicking argument, we all know it is only one out of convenience to skate around the topic at hand.
I posted the article because it is behind a pay wall and thought maybe others would want to read it. Again, why are you being so combative?
It was defensive holding. I have never once state the otherwise.
I haven't called you out at all, or twisted or turned any of the conversation...
Why are you getting so upset and being so aggressive? Is it too much to ask for you to have a rational debate/conversation without doing so?
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
I meant a move of the Body, well now that I know you don't want to be a buddy, nice to hear your viewpoint on our relationship by the way after all that clearing up a week or so back I wont consider you one.
Are shoulders not part of the body?
You never considered me a buddy, so don't act as if you did before I said that.
what do you want to do? if your intent is to drudge up the past and whine like some child then F O, you've insulted me, called me every name under the sun for a decade, so ya, we havn't been friends, but my intent has been to be cordial, but you wont do that either, instead it's one argument after another with any comment I make, if the shoes where reversed you'd never have put up with the &%$@ I've taken from you, so knock off the BS.
No past being "drudged up." I didn't insult you anywhere in this thread. Not once, not even a little. Again not sure why or how it led to such a hostile response. If your intent in this thread was to be cordial, then I think we both have very different definitions of what cordial means. I have not done anything to you in this thread. It is consistent in this one that you have turned it aggressive without provocation.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
