Green Bay Packers News 2023

[Pckfn23]

Here are the Defensive Lineman the Packers drafted in the first 4 rounds since and including 2014:

Wyatt - 1st, 2022
Adams - 3rd, 2017
Clark - 1st, 2016
Thornton - 3rd, 2014

supporting not using a high pick on a WR since 2014

I definitely could be wrong, but I think [mention]go pak go[/mention] was strictly talking about defensive lineman and saying how we really have not made them a priority in the draft recently.

[go pak go]

4th round or higher in last 5 years.

Wyatt - 1st, 2022

And the year before that Kenny Clark.


Now this was an issue, Harrell, Jones, Werthy, Neal, etc. but we are long past that time.

well Jones, Neal. and Worthy where more recent, and all 4 where high draft misses, which was all I said, we could have traded those picks and gotten average starters

again this is GPG and other supporting not using a high pick on a WR since 2014, pure and simple.

funny really, everyone seems to agree with Yoho's point of view on team building, yet defend not doing so.

A. No. I just questioned your generalization that we spent too many picks on DL with our 1st and 2nd rounders when our total number of picks since 2009 in the 1st and 2nd round is 5 (Raji, Worthy, Jones, Clark, Wyatt). And it looks like 3 of the 5 were good picks.

B. I saw Yoho talk about the importance of building up the trenches. DL is the trenches.

C. If you are going to say any position we focused on too heavily since 2009 it would be the secondary. We spent a lot of draft capital between CB and Safety and most of them have been busts. (Hayward, Dix, Randall, Rollins, King, Josh Jones, Josh Jackson, Savage, possibly Stokes). Now that's a lot of busts. Is it position that was wrong? No. It was that we just missed on the pick or didn't resign the only good one we drafted.

[Labrev]

I saw that list of Packer busts that yoop is referring to.

His takeaway is that it's proof that we stopped drafting WRs because we kept trying to draft DL, because there are a lot of DL on the list and no WRs other than Amari Rodgers.

What that conclusion misses is that there are no WRs on the list other than Amari because when we drafted them high, they have *all* worked out (sans Amari, ofc), not because we did not draft a lot of WRs high!!

And because the result of that was having good WRs on the roster, we did not need to keep drafting WR as much as DL, where we did *not* have as many good players, because... WR was not as much of a roster need (because, again, we had good players there, better than on the DL).

It's a classic case of seeing something for exactly what you *want* to see out of it.

[Yoop]

And the year before that Kenny Clark.


Now this was an issue, Harrell, Jones, Werthy, Neal, etc. but we are long past that time.

well Jones, Neal. and Worthy where more recent, and all 4 where high draft misses, which was all I said, we could have traded those picks and gotten average starters

again this is GPG and other supporting not using a high pick on a WR since 2014, pure and simple.

funny really, everyone seems to agree with Yoho's point of view on team building, yet defend not doing so.

A. No. I just questioned your generalization that we spent too many picks on DL with our 1st and 2nd rounders when our total number of picks since 2009 in the 1st and 2nd round is 5 (Raji, Worthy, Jones, Clark, Wyatt). And it looks like 3 of the 5 were good picks.

B. I saw Yoho talk about the importance of building up the trenches. DL is the trenches.

C. If you are going to say any position we focused on too heavily since 2009 it would be the secondary. We spent a lot of draft capital between CB and Safety and most of them have been busts. (Hayward, Dix, Randall, Rollins, King, Josh Jones, Josh Jackson, Savage, possibly Stokes). Now that's a lot of busts. Is it position that was wrong? No. It was that we just missed on the pick or didn't resign the only good one we drafted.

DL was only a stipulation, we have used to many picks on defense, to the point of allowing the skill position to decline to ONE impact receiver since 2014, is that better do you get the point now, and don't tell me you havn't supported this insanity because you and I have been talking about it for 6 years or more, so just admit that you don't agree with Yoho's plan for building a team.

these secondary players gave a lot more production then the DL busts, still to many high picks went to building a defense that never became a top 10 uint and relied on the QB you think is a wash up to carry the team, is that better and easier to understand

[Yoop]

I saw that list of Packer busts that yoop is referring to.

His takeaway is that it's proof that we stopped drafting WRs because we kept trying to draft DL, because there are a lot of DL on the list and no WRs other than Amari Rodgers.

What that conclusion misses is that there are no WRs on the list other than Amari because when we drafted them high, they have *all* worked out (sans Amari, ofc), not because we did not draft a lot of WRs high!!

And because the result of that was having good WRs on the roster, we did not need to keep drafting WR as much as DL, where we did *not* have as many good players, because... WR was not as much of a roster need (because, again, we had good players there, better than on the DL).

It's a classic case of seeing something for exactly what you *want* to see out of it.

thing is the Nelsons, the Cobbs declined with injury's and we didn't replace them, Jones was gone along with Jennings after 2014 almost all resources where dedicated to building a defense.

and it was suicidal, we had a QB that could thread a needle from 50 yrds out, with no one to throw too other then a bunch of very raw limited talent draft picks and UDFA other then Adams, just unforgivable, it became so hard for me to continue my respect for Ted.

now you guys can he haw this all you want to, Ted got it right in the beginning, but as they say fked up the end game, and Gute has done the same thing.

It's why I said back then we have to change, Rodgers even said it too, right to the media, along with saying we need to run more.

problem is you guys don't even listen to him, he has basically been hinting all along he agrees with Yoho's comments too, stout OL, and impact yac players, he didn't mention pass rush, but he probably took it for granted everyone knew that., course your so intent on tit for tat, Iam sure you'd misconstrue his subtal comments just as ya have mine

[YoHoChecko]

I was listening to a podcast about the economics of internet advertising today, and heard the "Wannamaker rule" of the advertising industry: "50% of the money you spend on advertising is wasted, but you can't know which 50%."

Seemed relevant.

(Talking about draft picks and draft capital)

[YoHoChecko]

Also, I don't know why everyone so often belabors these conversations or has so much frustration about Yoop's opinion. Agree or disagree, I took basically the entire season off of posting and even I can tell you that Yoop thinks, and has for a long time thought, that our skill positions have been lacking since Jordy injured his knee--particularly in guys who can separate and uncover quickly, especially from the slot.

It's not a particularly unpopular opinion. It's downright mainstream. I think it is an overblown point (about Rodgers lacking weapons) and often argue against it. But it's not a crazy opinion.

Often, yoop is pressed to identify when or how we could or should have invested in those players, and things often go awry in those conversations because he wanted to trade up for Jefferson even though there's a lot of evidence that we tried; or he likes pass rush but hated the Gary pick. Or he's stuck between defending Rodgers and being ready to move on to Love. But it's not so unique that we need to go nuts every time he shares this opinion. Yoop thinks we would have won more with better-separating wide receivers in the past 5 years. So does virtually every member of the media. It's ok.

[Pckfn23]

Also, I don't know why everyone so often belabors these conversations or has so much frustration about Yoop's opinion. Agree or disagree, I took basically the entire season off of posting and even I can tell you that Yoop thinks, and has for a long time thought, that our skill positions have been lacking since Jordy injured his knee--particularly in guys who can separate and uncover quickly, especially from the slot.

It's not a particularly unpopular opinion. It's downright mainstream. I think it is an overblown point (about Rodgers lacking weapons) and often argue against it. But it's not a crazy opinion.

Often, yoop is pressed to identify when or how we could or should have invested in those players, and things often go awry in those conversations because he wanted to trade up for Jefferson even though there's a lot of evidence that we tried; or he likes pass rush but hated the Gary pick. Or he's stuck between defending Rodgers and being ready to move on to Love. But it's not so unique that we need to go nuts every time he shares this opinion. Yoop thinks we would have won more with better-separating wide receivers in the past 5 years. So does virtually every member of the media. It's ok.

The problem is rarely does anyone ever argue against that opinion... So what you are blaming the rest of the forum for just does not happen. Example, Go Pack Go was only talking about DL being drafted as a priority, which unduly led to him being blamed for accepting the lack of talent at WR since 2014. That's how it always goes. The forum doesn't take it there or even argue against it, they end up arguing that that was never what they said or their argument in the first place.

[Yoop]

Also, I don't know why everyone so often belabors these conversations or has so much frustration about Yoop's opinion. Agree or disagree, I took basically the entire season off of posting and even I can tell you that Yoop thinks, and has for a long time thought, that our skill positions have been lacking since Jordy injured his knee--particularly in guys who can separate and uncover quickly, especially from the slot.

It's not a particularly unpopular opinion. It's downright mainstream. I think it is an overblown point (about Rodgers lacking weapons) and often argue against it. But it's not a crazy opinion.

Often, yoop is pressed to identify when or how we could or should have invested in those players, and things often go awry in those conversations because he wanted to trade up for Jefferson even though there's a lot of evidence that we tried; or he likes pass rush but hated the Gary pick. Or he's stuck between defending Rodgers and being ready to move on to Love. But it's not so unique that we need to go nuts every time he shares this opinion. Yoop thinks we would have won more with better-separating wide receivers in the past 5 years. So does virtually every member of the media. It's ok.

The problem is rarely does anyone ever argue against that opinion... So what you are blaming the rest of the forum for just does not happen. Example, Go Pack Go was only talking about DL being drafted as a priority, which unduly led to him being blamed for accepting the lack of talent at WR since 2014. That's how it always goes. The forum doesn't take it there or even argue against it, they end up arguing that that was never what they said or their argument in the first place.

serious?????? I've been saying we spend to much on defense for a long time, the back lash is defense wins championships, (which is a half truth at best) we need a better defense, and thats true, however it has come at a price of less resources to offense, and it is a fact, every time I complain about lack of receiver talent, the backlash has been Rodgers doesn't get the most out of a guy like Lazard, who really is a borderline #2 and really just a #3, I hear we don't use a TE in Matts schemes or something to that affect, when in reality we would which was on center stage with Tonyan 2 years ago.

we saw the difference talent makes once Watson gelled up, anyone that would compare his capability with the likes of Scantling, or Lazard, actually any receiver we've had outside of Adams isn't being truthful, and that is a pretty good example of the push back I've gotten, sorry that I become over bearing, but I simply get almost no agreement on any of this stuff.

hell Brandon you wont even agree that if I put a hand on your shoulder when your in the process of changing direction that it wont slow you down, when we both know without a doubt that it would, that refs don't call it doesn't change that.

[go pak go]

The issue isn't drafting defense.

The issue is we suck at drafting defense.

[NCF]

Interesting. I thought we had made a concerted effort to improve team speed, but still lacking compared to the rest of the league. Also interesting to see SF sitting way down in the basement with us.

[Yoop]

The issue isn't drafting defense.

The issue is we suck at drafting defense.

but who doesn't suck at drafting defense? seriously, it's why we see coaches like Belechick buy there defensive players.

defense is very scheme specific, players that excel in one scheme, struggle in others, we saw how well Alexander does in man coverage, and not do as well when he is forced to rely on others in zone, years ago we saw Woodson limited in whatever scheme Oakland used, Capers gave him more freedom and he flourished into one of the best DB's of all time, for these type reasons I wouldn't use all my resources to ever attempt to build the type of defenses we all go gaga over, simply aim for top half of the league and let it go at that, and use the resources to build the most potent offensive attack as possible.

when Guty traded back and then back up for Alexander I applauded him, when he bought the Smith boys, again rave reviews from me, but to then sit at 12 and keeping building the edge, no way I would have ever done that, specially with Simmons and several other great players at other needy positions available, Simmons, with Clark and I don't see us last in the league defending the run, good edge rushers are available in every draft, not so with DT, and they get good pressure too.

Back to how Belichick does it a bit, he does draft defensive players, but he also searches for older vets to either replace his draft misses or to fortify his bench, go back to Capers SB defense, guys like Peprah played a key part for us to win, your going to lose a starter or two in the course of a play off run, so imho a defense needs a strong bunch of backup players or it wont survive, and for Gary's first 2 seasons he didn't offer what the 4th round Engabar did for us as a rookie last year.

basically I think it's more important to score points, then it is to prevent them, simply because preventing them is so much harder, requires to many things to be near perfect, so if you can't score, the odds of success go down, just my opinion

[LombardiTime]

The issue isn't drafting defense.

The issue is we suck at drafting defense.

And even when we don’t suck at drafting defense, we suck at utilizing the talent on the field.

The lack of coordination between what type of players best fit the DC’s scheme and the players being drafted has been an issue for at least a decade now.

No team can throw so many draft assets at one side of the ball and get such poor results as the Packers have on defense without both the drafting and coaching being problems.

Which is why I am fully prepared for another 1st round pick to go to the defense in the upcoming draft followed by another disappointing defensive performance in 2023.

[Labrev]

The issue isn't drafting defense.

The issue is we suck at drafting defense.

I actually feel like the issue is more the development, and less the drafting. To be sure, we made some bad picks. Randall, Rollins, King, and Jackson were just bad picks. But the others who did not work out, I don't see poor talent-eval. I see guys who our coaches are not coaching up well.

Even the guys who are good don't quite take the next step, or sometimes regress. Stokes looks good early, but then doesn't take the next step. Amos comes in looking like a Bears DB, strong tackler, but I feel like he's gotten a bit worse at it every year and looks more and more like a Packers DB (to be fair, age is also part of it for him). Rudy Ford and Keisean Nixon come in from losing teams and look better at it than our guys.

Savage has largely been a disappointment, but I'm not convinced that would be the case no matter where he landed. I feel like some team may have gotten it out of him. Even now we see that while he had a bad year as a S, he bounced back a little after the benching, and also gave us solid reps as a dime DB. I wonder what he looks like if that's his position from the start. Then you have Hayward and Hyde, we all know the story there.

I mean we had 3 different DC's in the last like seven years, the fact we moved on from these guys speaks to how great they were, even the DC we have now is average at best. And one of the consequences of coaching mediocrity is not getting the most of the talent that we bring in.

[Pckfn23]

Interesting. I thought we had made a concerted effort to improve team speed, but still lacking compared to the rest of the league. Also interesting to see SF sitting way down in the basement with us.

I saw this and immediately was suspect when I saw the LB score...

[BF004]

I wonder if we are including the likes of Enegbare and Preston on the LB's? I would think not.

Also guessing Khrys Barnes and McDuffie probably brought us down.

[Yoop]

The issue isn't drafting defense.

The issue is we suck at drafting defense.

I actually feel like the issue is more the development, and less the drafting. To be sure, we made some bad picks. Randall, Rollins, King, and Jackson were just bad picks. But the others who did not work out, I don't see poor talent-eval. I see guys who our coaches are not coaching up well.

Even the guys who are good don't quite take the next step, or sometimes regress. Stokes looks good early, but then doesn't take the next step. Amos comes in looking like a Bears DB, strong tackler, but I feel like he's gotten a bit worse at it every year and looks more and more like a Packers DB (to be fair, age is also part of it for him). Rudy Ford and Keisean Nixon come in from losing teams and look better at it than our guys.

Savage has largely been a disappointment, but I'm not convinced that would be the case no matter where he landed. I feel like some team may have gotten it out of him. Even now we see that while he had a bad year as a S, he bounced back a little after the benching, and also gave us solid reps as a dime DB. I wonder what he looks like if that's his position from the start. Then you have Hayward and Hyde, we all know the story there.

I mean we had 3 different DC's in the last like seven years, the fact we moved on from these guys speaks to how great they were, even the DC we have now is average at best. And one of the consequences of coaching mediocrity is not getting the most of the talent that we bring in.

when you refuse to use UFA then your draft lean has to go to positional needs, Randal was just such a case, he was the best DB left in that class from most reports I read, same with Datone Jones or Worthy, Adams, Harrell etc. Thompson didn't like to dabble in the UFA market and the consequences where drafting for positions of need, Randal imo was a better option at safety, not all picks, even high picks will produce a great player, Savage had been a pretty good starter, specially so in the Slot or Star position, one of the very best the last half of 2020

it takes time for team chemistry to build, specially concerning defense, Our lack of each player knowing what the other will do in a zone coverage scheme has been obvious for years, is that a coaching issue, or simply a lack of experience amongst the players with each other, add in some lack of talent with backups and it magnify's the lack of cohesion we see.

D&D sometimes doesn't cut the mustard on defense, again other teams search for a older vet to use as backups, that way if a starter is hurt your not trying to plug in a raw recruit, who still hasn't learned the nuances of a scheme, thats why we often see broken coverages.

Ya don't need a roster full of top 10 players on defense, what you can't have is lack of communication breakdowns, imo often complication within schemes is the biggest problem and just leads to mistakes.

[Drj820]

But hey, we had to pay 12 the highest amount in the league and all his unproductive buddies like Cobb, Big dog, and short stick Crosby

Also, man Creed Humphrey is one heck of a center. Super Bowl champ too.

[YoHoChecko]

But hey, we had to pay 12 the highest amount in the league and all his unproductive buddies like Cobb, Big dog, and short stick Crosby

Also, man Creed Humphrey is one heck of a center. Super Bowl champ too.

It's really weird that you think a trio of $4 million players are a cap issue and really annoying how often the team raves about how much Lewis brings to the table and how fans continue to act as if he and his role are just taking up space. It's literally the biggest "football IQ red flag" I have in a fan; if you think Marcedes Lewis' contract is some sort of misspent favor to him or to Rodgers, you don't understand football. If you listen to literally everyone who is inside the organization and pay attention to the things he opens up for us, then you are capable of baseline understanding.

But anyway, yes. The issue was drafting Myers over Humphrey. It was a mistake then, it is a mistake now. Foresight, hindsight, in-the-moment-sight. Humphrey was considered the best C in the draft by nearly everyone. But not the Packers. When you're out of step with the consensus, it's great when you're right. But feels like an egregious miss when you're wrong.

[BSA]

Humphrey was considered the best C in the draft by nearly everyone. But not the Packers

I remember reading about the reason they made that choice - Myers ability to handle an up- tempo AR offense from the mental POV.
I don't know if Myers is fixable, but the dropoff from Corey Linsley was steeper than it should have been. At one point Steno said he thought Zach Toms' best position would be OC, so maybe we see change going into 2023 .