From Gutekunst at the combine
"I'm kind of an old-school guy, it all starts up front with the pass rush," Gutekunst said. "When we lost Rashan that took a lot of resources to make sure we could get a pass rush."
That's often lost in translation- when you have a guy like Gary go down, the impact on the defense is immense and forces the DCs hand a bit in terms of how/where he can deploy his guys.
Also, I think we can expect to see another EDGE and another DL with wiggle added to the squad this offseason.
Credit Joe Barry some, will ya!?
Moderators: NCF, salmar80, BF004, APB, Packfntk
IT. IS. TIME
which means the first pick will be edge or DT's, which we do need, urrrrrrrrrr more defense, if Rodgers is traded, and depending on compensation, slot 2 might be a QB just in case Love isn't who they think he is, then possibly one of these highly touted TE's, course our 3rd round curse could be a issue, I think to avoid that we should use the 3rd and a 5th ??? to trade back into round 2 for the TE, the position is hard enough no sense shackling him with our 3rd round curse to 
Love's going to just have to wait a few more years for another receiver
Love's going to just have to wait a few more years for another receiver
Came across this one in my wanderings today, its a run down on how Joe Barry used his DL in 2021 vs 2022 and then 2023
Some interesting comments for your consideration as we roll into the draft. He also offers some potential picks at 1,3,5 tech
Note: Its a bit dated ( Feb 18) so some of the players mentioned are already gone. But its still a worthy read
https://wisportsheroics.com/the-3-defen ... o-upgrade/
Each defensive system requires different qualities out of their defensive line. Some emphasize penetration and playmaking; others require an ability to control multiple gaps and eat up blocks.
In Joe Barry’s scheme, the defensive line is asked to fill a variety of roles. As a system that prioritizes two-high shells and light boxes, Barry’s defense has to find a way to “steal” gaps. They often do this by having defensive lineman play a “gap-and-a-half” technique, which involves a lineman getting upfield far enough to control one gap while staying in position to switch over to a secondary gap if the running back’s path necessitates it. Other times, the defense uses line movement – stunts, slants, etc. – to disrupt the run game.
Some interesting comments for your consideration as we roll into the draft. He also offers some potential picks at 1,3,5 tech
Note: Its a bit dated ( Feb 18) so some of the players mentioned are already gone. But its still a worthy read
https://wisportsheroics.com/the-3-defen ... o-upgrade/
Each defensive system requires different qualities out of their defensive line. Some emphasize penetration and playmaking; others require an ability to control multiple gaps and eat up blocks.
In Joe Barry’s scheme, the defensive line is asked to fill a variety of roles. As a system that prioritizes two-high shells and light boxes, Barry’s defense has to find a way to “steal” gaps. They often do this by having defensive lineman play a “gap-and-a-half” technique, which involves a lineman getting upfield far enough to control one gap while staying in position to switch over to a secondary gap if the running back’s path necessitates it. Other times, the defense uses line movement – stunts, slants, etc. – to disrupt the run game.
IT. IS. TIME
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TheSkeptic
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- Posts: 2163
- Joined: 25 Mar 2020 01:37
If Love isn't what most of us think he is, then the Packers are screwed and the only solution is to go 2-15 and get a top 2 pick and use it on a QB. This is not something that the Packers can or should hedge their bets on. No way the Packers should draft a QB before the 6th round.Yoop wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023 14:01which means the first pick will be edge or DT's, which we do need, urrrrrrrrrr more defense, if Rodgers is traded, and depending on compensation, slot 2 might be a QB just in case Love isn't who they think he is, then possibly one of these highly touted TE's, course our 3rd round curse could be a issue, I think to avoid that we should use the 3rd and a 5th ??? to trade back into round 2 for the TE, the position is hard enough no sense shackling him with our 3rd round curse to
Love's going to just have to wait a few more years for another receiver
The Packers needs are Pass Rusher, Safety and TE. It is possible that the Packers have someone on the team already that can play strong safety but I doubt it. They do not have a competent TE, period. These 3 positions have to be addressed either through the draft or in a trade or FA. But this so called 3rd round curse is superstition and nothing more. If the Packers trade down and pick up another 3rd round pick, more power to them.
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Madcity_matt
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- Posts: 580
- Joined: 27 Mar 2020 22:22
I''m fine with a QB prospect 4th round on, if its the right guy. But I'd be drafting him as a dev, not as a hedge.TheSkeptic wrote: ↑30 Mar 2023 16:51If Love isn't what most of us think he is, then the Packers are screwed and the only solution is to go 2-15 and get a top 2 pick and use it on a QB. This is not something that the Packers can or should hedge their bets on. No way the Packers should draft a QB before the 6th round.Yoop wrote: ↑28 Feb 2023 14:01which means the first pick will be edge or DT's, which we do need, urrrrrrrrrr more defense, if Rodgers is traded, and depending on compensation, slot 2 might be a QB just in case Love isn't who they think he is, then possibly one of these highly touted TE's, course our 3rd round curse could be a issue, I think to avoid that we should use the 3rd and a 5th ??? to trade back into round 2 for the TE, the position is hard enough no sense shackling him with our 3rd round curse to
Love's going to just have to wait a few more years for another receiver
The Packers needs are Pass Rusher, Safety and TE. It is possible that the Packers have someone on the team already that can play strong safety but I doubt it. They do not have a competent TE, period. These 3 positions have to be addressed either through the draft or in a trade or FA. But this so called 3rd round curse is superstition and nothing more. If the Packers trade down and pick up another 3rd round pick, more power to them.
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YoHoChecko
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- Posts: 9680
- Joined: 26 Mar 2020 11:34
Ok, a quote:BSA wrote: ↑30 Mar 2023 16:29Came across this one in my wanderings today, its a run down on how Joe Barry used his DL in 2021 vs 2022 and then 2023
Some interesting comments for your consideration as we roll into the draft. He also offers some potential picks at 1,3,5 tech
Note: Its a bit dated ( Feb 18) so some of the players mentioned are already gone. But its still a worthy read
https://wisportsheroics.com/the-3-defen ... o-upgrade/
Each defensive system requires different qualities out of their defensive line. Some emphasize penetration and playmaking; others require an ability to control multiple gaps and eat up blocks.
In Joe Barry’s scheme, the defensive line is asked to fill a variety of roles. As a system that prioritizes two-high shells and light boxes, Barry’s defense has to find a way to “steal” gaps. They often do this by having defensive lineman play a “gap-and-a-half” technique, which involves a lineman getting upfield far enough to control one gap while staying in position to switch over to a secondary gap if the running back’s path necessitates it. Other times, the defense uses line movement – stunts, slants, etc. – to disrupt the run game.
Weren't we better in 2021 than 2022? Why the change? And how were the DL used in the back half of the season lats year versus the front, as the D improved? A lot has been made of some shifts in secondary play then, were there changes up front?After using a lot of “tite” fronts in 2021 (two DTs in 4i alignments with a 0t nose), Barry leaned heavily into Under fronts in 2022. Under fronts consist of a nose tackle shaded to the tight end, a 3t away from the tight end, and a 5t to the tight end. Taking into account the composition of Under fronts and nickel fronts, the different roles of the defensive line can be roughly divided into three buckets: nose tackle, 3t, and 5t.
Further, they say we need to upgrade 3-tech but Clark and Wyatt are both ideally 3-tech, so it seems like we don't need that.
I wouldn't MIND a nose, but TJ Slaton, Ford, and Clark all can play nose.
To me, this sounds like we just need a 5-tech, but also guys who can play 4i in case there is a shift back to the previous alignments.
Personally, I would GUESS that the 4i was used more when Gary was healthy because Gary and Preston are BIG OLBs, so being at a disadvantage in power runs toward the OT with a 4i versus a 5t can be mitigated when you have run defending EDGEs. Maybe with Gary out, they were forced to shift the DL out and it left more gaps in the middle? I dunno.
I guess my point is to say this was interesting analysis, but I need it to go deeper by someone who has even more data.
And that regardless, we need some 5t types. Adeborware would be fun for that role (as the article suggested). He's very strong and has very long arms considering his height/weight.
I think our Nickle front is often both Reed and Clark 4i slanting them inside off the OT inside shoulder, it puts a lot of strain on the ILB's cause there going head up on a G/C, it's a huge mis match unless Clark or Reed can shed and flow back in.YoHoChecko wrote: ↑05 Apr 2023 14:20Personally, I would GUESS that the 4i was used more when Gary was healthy because Gary and Preston are BIG OLBs, so being at a disadvantage in power runs toward the OT with a 4i versus a 5t can be mitigated when you have run defending EDGEs. Maybe with Gary out, they were forced to shift the DL out and it left more gaps in the middle? I dunno.
I guess my point is to say this was interesting analysis, but I need it to go deeper by someone who has even more data.
And that regardless, we need some 5t types. Adeborware would be fun for that role (as the article suggested). He's very strong and has very long arms considering his height/weight.
I think this becomes overly complicated myself, anyone 6.4 and 270 can play all 4 techs these days, another inch, or another 10 to 20 lbs is a bonus, but not a dead ender minus it, a bunch of these edge rushers fit these dimensions, and can be had in the first 2 rounds, great class.
Seems like 5-tech is the DL spot most in need of an investment on draft weekend
https://wisportsheroics.com/the-3-defen ... -upgrade/
5-Technique
"Although a 5t is technically an alignment on the outside shoulder of the tackle, the Packers often move this player around to different alignments over the tackle such as 4t (directly over the T), or 4i (inside shoulder of the T). For the sake of brevity, these alignments will all be grouped together in this article.
The 5t role has some overlap with the 3t – players like Reed and Lowry often spent time here as well as over the guard. Given how often the Packers are in nickel, this is the least important role on the line. However, an upgrade could still be helpful.
Ideally, the 5t would have enough power and gap control ability to match up with tackles and tight ends, both when they attempt double teams and when they face the 5t in one-on-one situations. However, it’s also possible to manipulate alignments in order to “hide” the 5t to a degree. You can move him around to make double teams harder and produce better angles. For example, you can move the 5t to a 4i to make a tackle-and-TE double team on zone more difficult.
This is often where Lowry – who consistently struggled with double teams and was often lackluster vs. the run in general – was relegated when he was on the field in odd fronts. The malleability of the 5t/4t/4i position made it easier to minimize his weaknesses.
Unfortunately, that type of line manipulation brings disadvantages as well. To expand on the previous scenario, a 4i is in terrible position if the opponent decides to run power – the tackle has a great angle to wash him down. Upgrading this position could lessen Green Bay’s need to tweak their fronts, improving the overall effectiveness of Green Bay’s odd front packages.
A few players to watch for this role would be Colby Wooden, Adetomiwa Adebawore, and Byron Young. As mentioned, there’s some player-type overlap with the 3t. Many of the 5t prospects in the draft could also play over the guard."
https://wisportsheroics.com/the-3-defen ... -upgrade/
5-Technique
"Although a 5t is technically an alignment on the outside shoulder of the tackle, the Packers often move this player around to different alignments over the tackle such as 4t (directly over the T), or 4i (inside shoulder of the T). For the sake of brevity, these alignments will all be grouped together in this article.
The 5t role has some overlap with the 3t – players like Reed and Lowry often spent time here as well as over the guard. Given how often the Packers are in nickel, this is the least important role on the line. However, an upgrade could still be helpful.
Ideally, the 5t would have enough power and gap control ability to match up with tackles and tight ends, both when they attempt double teams and when they face the 5t in one-on-one situations. However, it’s also possible to manipulate alignments in order to “hide” the 5t to a degree. You can move him around to make double teams harder and produce better angles. For example, you can move the 5t to a 4i to make a tackle-and-TE double team on zone more difficult.
This is often where Lowry – who consistently struggled with double teams and was often lackluster vs. the run in general – was relegated when he was on the field in odd fronts. The malleability of the 5t/4t/4i position made it easier to minimize his weaknesses.
Unfortunately, that type of line manipulation brings disadvantages as well. To expand on the previous scenario, a 4i is in terrible position if the opponent decides to run power – the tackle has a great angle to wash him down. Upgrading this position could lessen Green Bay’s need to tweak their fronts, improving the overall effectiveness of Green Bay’s odd front packages.
A few players to watch for this role would be Colby Wooden, Adetomiwa Adebawore, and Byron Young. As mentioned, there’s some player-type overlap with the 3t. Many of the 5t prospects in the draft could also play over the guard."
IT. IS. TIME
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YoHoChecko
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I was shocked to see Byron Young here. But then remembered there are two Byron Youngs and he probably means the 294-pound Alabama DT Byron Young not 250-pound Tennessee EDGE Byron Young.
I don't actually like Wooden for the role. I don't think he has the mass to be any kind of upgrade, at under 275 pounds.
I'm very intrigued by Gervon Dexter, but he's the kind of guy who the team needs to have a good character read on to understand why he underachieved and get a read on a couple incidents in the past.
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Late round, very into Scott Matlock, who had a great week down at the Shrine Game or maybe it was NFLPA game.
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Looking at the past on DL:
"...Ideally, the 5t would have enough power and gap control ability to match up with tackles and tight ends, both when they attempt double teams and when they face the 5t in one-on-one situations. However, it’s also possible to manipulate alignments in order to “hide” the 5t to a degree. You can move him around to make double teams harder and produce better angles. For example, you can move the 5t to a 4i to make a tackle-and-TE double team on zone more difficult.
This is often where Lowry – who consistently struggled with double teams and was often lackluster vs. the run in general – was relegated when he was on the field in odd fronts. The malleability of the 5t/4t/4i position made it easier to minimize his weaknesses.
Unfortunately, that type of line manipulation brings disadvantages as well. To expand on the previous scenario, a 4i is in terrible position if the opponent decides to run power – the tackle has a great angle to wash him down. Upgrading this position could lessen Green Bay’s need to tweak their fronts, improving the overall effectiveness of Green Bay’s odd front packages."
Looking at the Future on DL:
"The addition of Wooden to the defensive front brings versatility and speed, running a 4.79 second 40-yard dash at the combine. At Auburn, Wooden played 668 snaps in the B-gap, 355 over the offensive tackle, and 642 as a traditional edge rusher, according to PFF. After the draft, Gutekunst said that Wooden had the ability to pass rush from multiple spots along the defensive front. In his final two college seasons, Wooden totaled 72 pressures and 13 sacks.
Wooden’s speed and overall athleticism shows a shift in the type of interior defender the Packers want on their roster. Rather than space eating interior defenders, like Dean Lowry and Tyler Lancaster, who were there to clog up the middle, the addition of Wooden, as well as Wyatt and Karl Brooks, shows the Packers shifting more towards versatile, gap penetrating personnel."
"...Ideally, the 5t would have enough power and gap control ability to match up with tackles and tight ends, both when they attempt double teams and when they face the 5t in one-on-one situations. However, it’s also possible to manipulate alignments in order to “hide” the 5t to a degree. You can move him around to make double teams harder and produce better angles. For example, you can move the 5t to a 4i to make a tackle-and-TE double team on zone more difficult.
This is often where Lowry – who consistently struggled with double teams and was often lackluster vs. the run in general – was relegated when he was on the field in odd fronts. The malleability of the 5t/4t/4i position made it easier to minimize his weaknesses.
Unfortunately, that type of line manipulation brings disadvantages as well. To expand on the previous scenario, a 4i is in terrible position if the opponent decides to run power – the tackle has a great angle to wash him down. Upgrading this position could lessen Green Bay’s need to tweak their fronts, improving the overall effectiveness of Green Bay’s odd front packages."
Looking at the Future on DL:
"The addition of Wooden to the defensive front brings versatility and speed, running a 4.79 second 40-yard dash at the combine. At Auburn, Wooden played 668 snaps in the B-gap, 355 over the offensive tackle, and 642 as a traditional edge rusher, according to PFF. After the draft, Gutekunst said that Wooden had the ability to pass rush from multiple spots along the defensive front. In his final two college seasons, Wooden totaled 72 pressures and 13 sacks.
Wooden’s speed and overall athleticism shows a shift in the type of interior defender the Packers want on their roster. Rather than space eating interior defenders, like Dean Lowry and Tyler Lancaster, who were there to clog up the middle, the addition of Wooden, as well as Wyatt and Karl Brooks, shows the Packers shifting more towards versatile, gap penetrating personnel."
IT. IS. TIME
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Packers CBs Play Off-Coverage By Choice
"Many fans are curious/furious about why the Packers’ cornerbacks seem to play a soft coverage style when they often perform better in bump and run-in-man coverage. Most assume that this is all due to the play designs by Joe Barry, but that’s not entirely accurate.
Barry gives the corners the option to choose between playing off or man coverage.
In his recent interview, Jaire Alexander even admitted that he often decides to play soft coverage on his own and even did it more frequently last year. It seems that Joe Barry is allowing the players a lot of freedom to make their own decisions"
https://wisportsheroics.com/jaire-alexa ... packers-d/
Packers CBs Play Off-Coverage By Choice
"Many fans are curious/furious about why the Packers’ cornerbacks seem to play a soft coverage style when they often perform better in bump and run-in-man coverage. Most assume that this is all due to the play designs by Joe Barry, but that’s not entirely accurate.
Barry gives the corners the option to choose between playing off or man coverage.
In his recent interview, Jaire Alexander even admitted that he often decides to play soft coverage on his own and even did it more frequently last year. It seems that Joe Barry is allowing the players a lot of freedom to make their own decisions"
https://wisportsheroics.com/jaire-alexa ... packers-d/
IT. IS. TIME
Ultimately it's on the coach for giving that option. I think most egregious is the playing off 7 yards on 3rd and 5.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
That isn’t bad.
It’s when they are 8 yards off on 3rd and 1.
That has me worried entering the season. It seems like they're still doing that in practice.