Rodgers Watch 2023

[Yoop]

I have gotten serious. No one here is diminishing Rodgers to prop up Love. That is just not happening.

seriously delusional, I'am not about to drag every post from those or you that openly said Love would have been a improvment over Rodgers, or that LOve would be the3 better QB this or any season, FFS Labrevs been saying it, Skeptic has shouted it in every post he brings and You said it too, just keep denying it.

you've been toning down the negatives because Rodgers might be back, and you'll want to be lock step with whatever the FO does, just sell your soul

A criticism of Rodgers is simply that. Saying Love would be better for the team going forward than Rodgers is NOT diminishing Rodgers to prop up Love. NO ONE is criticizing Aaron Rodgers for the reason of propping up Jordan Love.

if you say so Mr. Denier.

[Labrev]

Yeah, the point of my ruthless criticism of Rodgers has nothing to do with trying to prop up Jordan Love. That would be totally pointless; Love will sink or swim on his own merits.

It has always been the position of those who want to start Love that it's to see what we have in him (by definition, admits the possibility he may not be a good player), not that we believe he will definitely be good, as yoop likes to routinely claim despite being it being explained to him many times.


Anyway, I criticize him owing to my natural devotion to truth and pushing back on principle against falsehoods, and to tear down the False Idol that Rodgers's legend more broadly has become, at a level that has even infected the highest levels of the org.

Also, just the mere fact of being critical of Rodgers means you will be seen as a "hater" by his Taliban no matter what. Whereas most others respond to that by trying to tone it down and trying to prove that they are not haters, I believe it is better to just embrace the full power of the dark side and just become one full-fledged, especially if you will just be seen as it regardless, then you get all the downside of being one and none of the benefits (and there are benefits)!

[Pckfn23]

seriously delusional, I'am not about to drag every post from those or you that openly said Love would have been a improvment over Rodgers, or that LOve would be the3 better QB this or any season, FFS Labrevs been saying it, Skeptic has shouted it in every post he brings and You said it too, just keep denying it.

you've been toning down the negatives because Rodgers might be back, and you'll want to be lock step with whatever the FO does, just sell your soul

A criticism of Rodgers is simply that. Saying Love would be better for the team going forward than Rodgers is NOT diminishing Rodgers to prop up Love. NO ONE is criticizing Aaron Rodgers for the reason of propping up Jordan Love.

if you say so Mr. Denier.

I don't just say so, it is 100% reality.

[YoHoChecko]

I don't much care if someone thinks I'm a Rodgers hater or not. I equivocate on some issues because I think there's room for some nuance.

But the fact of the matter is that statistically, Rodgers was an average-to-below-average QB last year. There are reasons for that--his young, inexperienced receivers, the disappointing performance of his OLine.

But a QB whose performance requires a strong supporting cast is no longer worth $40-50 million in cap charges and kicking the cap can down the road. He is literally the highest paid player in the NFL. Elite level players and elite level contracts belong to those who respond to changes in their offensive personnel or coaching staff by adapting, adjusting, and making those around him better; rather than forcing players to play up to experience and intellectual levels that they are not capable, you have to play to their abilities.

Patrick Mahomes lost Tyreek Hill and had his best year as a Pro. Daniel Jones has as laughable a receiving corps as the Packers and had a higher completion percentage, a comparable passer rating, a much higher QBR, and his team won more games.

Aaron Rodgers was 11th in yards, 16th in INT% (usually his greatest strength), 13th in TD percentage, 17th in passer rating, 27th in QBR, 20th in completion percentage, 25th in yards/attempt...

Among the QBs who finished ahead of him in most or all of those categories are guys like Jared Goff and Geno Smith. Andy Dalton and Jimmy G, on a rate basis rather than in bulk since they didn't start full seasons, as well.

That is not to say those players are better than Aaron Rodgers. That is not to say that given the right surrounding cast of characters Aaron Rodgers can't be great again. But it is to say that if he NEEDS his all pro WR and slot guys who know what he's thinking at all times and a line that is well above average (our OLine was not good, but it was pretty close to an average line last year) and a top defense to play and win, then that QB fails to justify elite status and elite money.

That QB becomes someone that is a piece of a comprehensive puzzle rather than a guy to build around--any QB is an important piece of a puzzle, but to justify his contract, he needs to stand above. And even compared to other teams with bad receivers or roster holes, he performed at an average or below level last year, indisputably, based on his actual statistical output and game outcomes.

[Madcity_matt]

I don't much care if someone thinks I'm a Rodgers hater or not. I equivocate on some issues because I think there's room for some nuance.

But the fact of the matter is that statistically, Rodgers was an average-to-below-average QB last year. There are reasons for that--his young, inexperienced receivers, the disappointing performance of his OLine.

But a QB whose performance requires a strong supporting cast is no longer worth $40-50 million in cap charges and kicking the cap can down the road. He is literally the highest paid player in the NFL. Elite level players and elite level contracts belong to those who respond to changes in their offensive personnel or coaching staff by adapting, adjusting, and making those around him better; rather than forcing players to play up to experience and intellectual levels that they are not capable, you have to play to their abilities.

Patrick Mahomes lost Tyreek Hill and had his best year as a Pro. Daniel Jones has as laughable a receiving corps as the Packers and had a higher completion percentage, a comparable passer rating, a much higher QBR, and his team won more games.

Aaron Rodgers was 11th in yards, 16th in INT% (usually his greatest strength), 13th in TD percentage, 17th in passer rating, 27th in QBR, 20th in completion percentage, 25th in yards/attempt...

Among the QBs who finished ahead of him in most or all of those categories are guys like Jared Goff and Geno Smith. Andy Dalton and Jimmy G, on a rate basis rather than in bulk since they didn't start full seasons, as well.

That is not to say those players are better than Aaron Rodgers. That is not to say that given the right surrounding cast of characters Aaron Rodgers can't be great again. But it is to say that if he NEEDS his all pro WR and slot guys who know what he's thinking at all times and a line that is well above average (our OLine was not good, but it was pretty close to an average line last year) and a top defense to play and win, then that QB fails to justify elite status and elite money.

That QB becomes someone that is a piece of a comprehensive puzzle rather than a guy to build around--any QB is an important piece of a puzzle, but to justify his contract, he needs to stand above. And even compared to other teams with bad receivers or roster holes, he performed at an average or below level last year, indisputably, based on his actual statistical output and game outcomes.

That is a very well articulated take, and I tend to fall about the same way.

[Pckfn23]

I don't much care if someone thinks I'm a Rodgers hater or not. I equivocate on some issues because I think there's room for some nuance.

But the fact of the matter is that statistically, Rodgers was an average-to-below-average QB last year. There are reasons for that--his young, inexperienced receivers, the disappointing performance of his OLine.

But a QB whose performance requires a strong supporting cast is no longer worth $40-50 million in cap charges and kicking the cap can down the road. He is literally the highest paid player in the NFL. Elite level players and elite level contracts belong to those who respond to changes in their offensive personnel or coaching staff by adapting, adjusting, and making those around him better; rather than forcing players to play up to experience and intellectual levels that they are not capable, you have to play to their abilities.

Patrick Mahomes lost Tyreek Hill and had his best year as a Pro. Daniel Jones has as laughable a receiving corps as the Packers and had a higher completion percentage, a comparable passer rating, a much higher QBR, and his team won more games.

Aaron Rodgers was 11th in yards, 16th in INT% (usually his greatest strength), 13th in TD percentage, 17th in passer rating, 27th in QBR, 20th in completion percentage, 25th in yards/attempt...

Among the QBs who finished ahead of him in most or all of those categories are guys like Jared Goff and Geno Smith. Andy Dalton and Jimmy G, on a rate basis rather than in bulk since they didn't start full seasons, as well.

That is not to say those players are better than Aaron Rodgers. That is not to say that given the right surrounding cast of characters Aaron Rodgers can't be great again. But it is to say that if he NEEDS his all pro WR and slot guys who know what he's thinking at all times and a line that is well above average (our OLine was not good, but it was pretty close to an average line last year) and a top defense to play and win, then that QB fails to justify elite status and elite money.

That QB becomes someone that is a piece of a comprehensive puzzle rather than a guy to build around--any QB is an important piece of a puzzle, but to justify his contract, he needs to stand above. And even compared to other teams with bad receivers or roster holes, he performed at an average or below level last year, indisputably, based on his actual statistical output and game outcomes.

[Labrev]

YoHo's post is essentially my position as well.

I will solely add that, for all my hate, I would have been for keeping Rodgers around if he embraced the game manager role he came out today saying he hated in 2019. If you have a guy like Adams, who not only is amazing but has a preternatural connection with what you see on the field and lets you take advantage really effectively, then sure, let them cook in 2020 and 2021.

But at 39 in 2022 and no Adams, shut up and manage the game, Aaron. On the occasions he did, I thought he looked good, maybe not worth Elite QB money exactly but enough that I would still try to make a run with him. And I believe he would have aged into that very nicely, as he is usually good at taking care of the ball and has lots of knowledge/experience that would serve him well.

Yet he continues to play as if his arm and legs are what they used to be. They're not, and his refusal to accept that is holding us back.

[Captain_Ben]

if he NEEDS his all pro WR and slot guys who know what he's thinking at all times and a line that is well above average (our OLine was not good, but it was pretty close to an average line last year) and a top defense to play and win,

I don't think this question is an accurate representation of the situation.
If you look at the WR corps at the start of 2022, the question wasn't who is the All-Pro? More like, who has taken an NFL snap?
Who in this league can throw to a couple of rookie small-school WR's, an over-the-hill TE, and another guy who doesn't consistently get open, while playing behind a not good OLine with a broken thumb on his throwing hand and still be elite?

Don't get me wrong, I see your point and I'm probably in the minority, but if he comes back to the Packers I'm actually optimistic for 2023. With an experienced Watson and Doubs, playing behind a decent Oline, and relatively healthy- I think Rodgers is still elite.

[Scott4Pack]

YoHo's post is essentially my position as well.

I will solely add that, for all my hate, I would have been for keeping Rodgers around if he embraced the game manager role he came out today saying he hated in 2019. If you have a guy like Adams, who not only is amazing but has a preternatural connection with what you see on the field and lets you take advantage really effectively, then sure, let them cook in 2020 and 2021.

But at 39 in 2022 and no Adams, shut up and manage the game, Aaron. On the occasions he did, I thought he looked good, maybe not worth Elite QB money exactly but enough that I would still try to make a run with him. And I believe he would have aged into that very nicely, as he is usually good at taking care of the ball and has lots of knowledge/experience that would serve him well.

Yet he continues to play as if his arm and legs are what they used to be. They're not, and his refusal to accept that is holding us back.

I will concur with that. He never has wanted to play the “manager” role. He wants his deep patterns and sideline back-shoulder throws. But he never has made a living on putting more focus on simply moving the chains.

When he was younger, he had as much arm talent as anybody and threw the best deep ball. And he had more than ample ability to run and escape pressure. But he doesn’t feel that pressure the same any longer and he doesn’t have the team that is equipped for the arm talent that he still has (in lesser degree).

He could really do well at playing Brady-ball if he wanted to. If Brady could, Rodgers could even do that as well or better.

[Scott4Pack]

Raiders are saying NO to Rodgers, citing the value of draft picks.

Of course, leading up to the draft there’s a lot of poker already being played.

[lupedafiasco]

Comparing Mahomes to Rodgers 2022 season is dumb. Where Mahomes lost Hill he still had Kelce. We lost Adams and still had Lazard. On top of that we signed just Watkins while they signed Juju, MVS, and traded for Toney to supplement the loss. On top of all that Mahomes cap hit last season was $7M more.

Stop making excuses for this Down syndrome of a GM we have. Rodgers didn’t play well but the supporting cast was bottom 10 last season. You’ve gotta give a QB something to work with.

[YoHoChecko]

Comparing Mahomes to Rodgers 2022 season is dumb. Where Mahomes lost Hill he still had Kelce. We lost Adams and still had Lazard. On top of that we signed just Watkins while they signed Juju, MVS, and traded for Toney to supplement the loss. On top of all that Mahomes cap hit last season was $7M more.

Stop making excuses for this Down syndrome of a GM we have. Rodgers didn’t play well but the supporting cast was bottom 10 last season. You’ve gotta give a QB something to work with.

I listed Jared Goff and Daniel Jones, as well, buddy. Easy to pick and choose your responses. Rodgers didn't get it done lats year, and he's being paid to be a guy who makes it work. I would never expect MVP with last season's circumstances, but is it too much to ask to expect Daniel Jones or Jared Goff?

No one here is making excuses except for people trying to explain away that a QB we all watched struggle, get injured, get frustrated, and had his worst statistical year in ages ultimately failed to live up to expectations.

There is literally no denying the FACT that he didn't get it done last year statistically, at any level of expectation. Not at MVP; not at Super Bowl; just at "elite QB play." Anything else is an excuse and counterfactual. That's not Rodgers hate. It's just reality. Like I said, no one doubts he can play well with a better supporting cast. But someone needs to explain to me how a 5'9" slot guy was the Lions' #1 WR all year and Jared Goff outperformed Rodgers. Or how Daniel Jones outplayed him with Darius Slayton and Ritchie James as the top two WRs.

You get paid to make it happen, you better make it happen. Rodgers made no positive adjustments to his circumstances. He tried to get the young guys to play like vets instead of meeting them at their level. If you deny him any responsibility for his play last year, you can't talk about other people makin excuses. Those critiquing Rodgers admit the roster shortcomings. Those defending Rodgers just can't fathom that he had some, too.

[lupedafiasco]

No different than 2017-2019 to me. All the fans talking about how Rodgers was done instead of looking at the absolutely talentless roster around him. I said the entire time the offensive scheme was shot and the supporting cast was mostly &%$@. We fixed that and Rodgers looked like a God again.

Then we dropped the only receiving talent this team had everything went back to &%$@.

Goff had better talent than we did around him. Daniel Jones didn’t have a better year than Rodgers. No convincing me of that absurdity.

[YoHoChecko]

Daniel Jones didn’t have a better year than Rodgers. No convincing me of that absurdity.

Ok, you don't have to be convinced; but, fwiw, it's dang close.

Jones only had a higher completion percentage, a higher QBR, a higher passer rating, a lower INT percentage, a higher adjusted yards/attempt, a higher AV, slightly higher DVOA, led a higher-ranked offense, more 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives, and won comeback player of the year.

Rodgers did have 17 more yards per game, a higher TD%, slightly higher DYAR, and manage the same meager yards per attempt (6.8), though. Not a total blowout.

Honestly their output this year was almost identical. Of all the advanced metrics, passer rating, DYAR, DVOA, AV, and AY/A all had it neck and neck, while QBR was a blowout for Jones, probably because Rodgers was terrible in the red zone if I had to guess.

[TheSkeptic]

I have NEVER said that Love is/was a better QB than Rodgers.

What I have consistently said is that Love needs to play. He needs starts. And when he gets those starts he WILL BE better. Had Love started every game last season, the Packers would not have made the playoffs. In fact they might lave lost 1 or 2 more games. But IF he had started most games he would now be substantially better than Rodgers and the Packers would be sitting pretty going into next season with a legitimate chance of going deep into the playoffs. Love gets better with every snap he takes. Rodgers gets worse with every day that passes, he is on the age decline. But until Love gets those snaps, his ability to improve is very slow.

Unfortunately that did not happen, and now the Packers are screwed. If they bring back Rodgers, then Love is gone. 100% gone, after next season, zero chance they keep him as they cannot afford to resign him and he will be an unrestricted free agent. Furthermore there is no more than a 10% chance the Packers can make the playoffs this coming season with Rodgers behind center. 90% chance their record will be worse than last season.

Of course the Packers brass can face reality and forget fan opinion and go with Love this season. Unfortunately he will take his lumps, all QB's do in their first season as a starter. Rodgers took his lumps as a first year starter too and the Packers had a 6-10 season and missed the playoffs, with a team that went 13-3 under Brett the year before.

[dsr]

No different than 2017-2019 to me. All the fans talking about how Rodgers was done instead of looking at the absolutely talentless roster around him. I said the entire time the offensive scheme was shot and the supporting cast was mostly &%$@. We fixed that and Rodgers looked like a God again.

Not in the playoffs he didn't. Even if we accept that Rodgers can again play at top level during the regular season, there is very little to none evidence that he can do it in the playoffs.

[dsr]

Unfortunately he will take his lumps, all QB's do in their first season as a starter. Rodgers took his lumps as a first year starter too and the Packers had a 6-10 season and missed the playoffs, with a team that went 13-3 under Brett the year before.

Though to be fair, in most of those losses Rodgers did take the side into position to win. And missed field goals, or the defence's inability to hold a lead in the last minute, cost us dear.

[Cdragon]

I have NEVER said that Love is/was a better QB than Rodgers.

What I have consistently said is that Love needs to play. He needs starts. And when he gets those starts he WILL BE better. Had Love started every game last season, the Packers would not have made the playoffs. In fact they might lave lost 1 or 2 more games. But IF he had started most games he would now be substantially better than Rodgers and the Packers would be sitting pretty going into next season with a legitimate chance of going deep into the playoffs. Love gets better with every snap he takes. Rodgers gets worse with every day that passes, he is on the age decline. But until Love gets those snaps, his ability to improve is very slow.

Unfortunately that did not happen, and now the Packers are screwed. If they bring back Rodgers, then Love is gone. 100% gone, after next season, zero chance they keep him as they cannot afford to resign him and he will be an unrestricted free agent. Furthermore there is no more than a 10% chance the Packers can make the playoffs this coming season with Rodgers behind center. 90% chance their record will be worse than last season.

Of course the Packers brass can face reality and forget fan opinion and go with Love this season. Unfortunately he will take his lumps, all QB's do in their first season as a starter. Rodgers took his lumps as a first year starter too and the Packers had a 6-10 season and missed the playoffs, with a team that went 13-3 under Brett the year before.

Going 6-10 in 08 had little to due with Rodgers. The Offense averaged 1 less point a game with AR. Offensively we went from 4 - 5 pt wise, while the D collapsed from 6th in pts to 22nd.

I do expect us to struggle this year regardless of who is playing QB. So now is the time to jump. Give AR a shot at the trophy by moving him on while we build a new club that can contend in 24.

[Yoop]

the back sliding now of I never said LOve was better then Rodgers is laugh out loud funny, but who cares at this point, basically we've had one of the best QB's in the league the last 16 years and for the last 7 years expected him to win with marginal talent at WR, imo we wasted his ability and probably chances to make deeper PO runs.

I don't like the person Rodgers has become, didn't like Favre much either, but what the heck does that have to do with there ability to play football, how I feel about Packer players personally has never clouded my judgement concerning there talent and ability.

this all went south back in 2017, Murphy demoted Ted, hired Guty then redid Rodgers contract for another 100 mil. when Rodgers still had 2 years left of his old contract, why? shut up Money for what was to come next, imo Rodgers has resented it ever since.

I still think Rodgers has the ability to give us the best chance for success this season and probably next, but maybe Love can get the job done to, I'am not opposed to moving on and trading Rodgers, and I do admit he seems to be intentionally ruining his appeal to interested teams curtailing a bidding war, basically ruining our ability to get max compensation, I suppose because he still wants to stay here.

But I don't think we want him either, at least the fans here don't, so he will be on a short leash, any mistake will be magnified even more now then in the past, anything short of a SB win will be looked upon as a waste of money and short circuiting the future.

The Raiders don't want him, the Jets like Carr, who's left that wants a old and expensive QB?

[go pak go]

I am on the record that I believe the Packers would have had very similar results in the win column in 2022 no matter who was the quarterback but that post was quite detailed on why I felt that way. It was far more about Rodgers not elevating than my belief in Jordan.

But I will also say I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest that Love will be a better quarterback for the young Packers team than Rodgers will be in 2023. There is a difference between declaring who is a better quarterback at the moment and who is a better quarterback for a specific situation. And yes. Jordan Love is the better quarterback for our current situation.

I have no problem saying that.