Rodgers Watch 2023

[YoHoChecko]

I disagree, up till MVS last season with us he couldn't run a route to save his bacon, and it was the same with Lazard, if these two could have separated on schedule Lafleur would have designed more 1st or second route progression reads for them

This is a fabricated anecdote to fit a narrative, nothing more.

Yeah Yoop, this one doesn't fly. In 2020, MVS had his career best year in yards and TDs and led the NFL in yards per catch. In 2021, he had a down year--almost identical to his 2019 season. His second best season with the Packers in yards, his best season with the Packers in catches, and his 2nd best season with the Packers in catch rate (still woefully low, as deep threats are), was in his rookie year.

Essentially, MVS was what you see, you get pretty much from the jump. He had a lot of development needed, but mostly stayed a similar player. The only things that really fluctuated over his 4-year stint with the team was his availability, our need for him, and Rodgers' trust in him.

image.png (35.66 KiB) Viewed 518 times

[Drj820]

surely we dont have to sit here and pretend that Adams, MVS, Lazard, and ESB are comparable to Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, James Jones, and Jordy Nelson do we? Please tell me we arent doing this.

Its okay to admit: Gutey sabotoged the 2022 season with his neglegence and awful patch work of the WR position.

[YoHoChecko]

surely we dont have to sit here and pretend that Adams, MVS, Lazard, and ESB are comparable to Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, James Jones, and Jordy Nelson do we? Please tell me we arent doing this.

Its okay to admit: Gutey sabotoged the 2022 season with his neglegence and awful patch work of the WR position.

Your first statement refers to the previous years; your second statement refers to 2022.

I agree. 2022 happened because we tried to kick the can for Rodgers one more year than we could manage. Now, Gutey also drafted an OROY runner up at WR with pick 34 who pulled a hammy in the offseason and battled a foot injury, none of which are his fault. But he was wrong about Watkins (as was I). He was wrong about committing to Rodgers the way he did. And he botched the Adams negotiation the year prior, and while getting good return for him as an asset, we missed him more than his returns helped us.

Unlike the unequivocal "Gutey is trash" crowd, I am perfectly capable of admitting and critiqing our General Manager's shortcomings and mistakes. I simply feel that we're operating in a low success-rate industry. The way you talk about Gutey would be like bashing a baseball player batting .300 for the 70% of at bats he fails. There are lots of misses and things I would have done differently and things that didn't work out.

But that's why I focus on the overall big picture, which you vehemently claim I have rejected or can't see. Your big picture is Super Bowl or bust. My big picture is that the team has improved under his management. As I showed before, his 5 year tenure surpasses the previous 5 year tenure in wins and playoff success (2 NFC championship games to 1 NFC Championship game)

You say he can only be compared to other GMs who had an MVP QB on the team, but you

• a) fail to consider his role in Rodgers' returning to success--impossible to say how much was MLF and how much was an improved set of players around him, as Gutey rebuilt the OL and the weapons we had were the weapons he picked

• b) fail to consider the state of the team when he took over; depleted roster and shaky cap situation

• c) fail to consider that Rodgers, the HoF QB played better over a 3-year stretch than at almost any point in his career, so clearly the team and roster building was doing something right, and

• d) ignore that TT didn't get a Super Bowl until year 6 (Rodgers' 3rd year); Bill Polian didn't get a Super Bowl until year 8 with Manning; Brett Veach got his first Super Bowl with Mahomes--a QB his predecessor John Dorsey selected--in year 4 (Mahomes' 3rd year starting); Ron Wolf didn't get a Super Bowl until year 5 with Favre (Favre's 5th year starting). You're judging Gutey's 1st 5 years as if it's some sort of completed chapter of failure. But lots of guys take 4-6+ years, with HoF, MVP QBs to hit that final success.

At this point in TT's career, which you admit was "excellent for a while," Rodgers was a promising young player who might not have been worth his big extension whose knock was that he couldn't win the big games. Favre had almost reached the Super Bowl with the Vikings, and the "firetedthompson.com" website was still alive and well. Nick Collins had just turned the corner and made his first Pro Bowl, and the team got to the playoffs after a losing season in Rodgers' first year, so the anger was starting to diminish.

So yeah, you say you need to see more; we all need to see more. But I view what has happened so far as very successful roster construction, if disappointing finishes; and excellent talent evaluation and acquisition. The team wins more games, acquires more high-end players, and is positioned for a fairly quick and easy reload moving into a new QB era. I am excited for the future of the Packers. I think we have excellent roster staples to build around. I think we have tons of young stars and potential stars at key positions. I think we're one WR, one TE, one OL, and two Safeties away from competing with the top teams--5 players. That's an offseason with cap space or 2 without it.

[Labrev]

surely we dont have to sit here and pretend that Adams, MVS, Lazard, and ESB are comparable to Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, James Jones, and Jordy Nelson do we? Please tell me we arent doing this.

What is meant by "comparable to ___" -? Time matters. A player is not the same at one point in his career versus other points, E.G. if I say that Rodgers had Davante Adams in 2015 (also had James Jones btw), who we all know is a great receiver, so Rodgers has no excuse for not producing in 2015... are you just going to accept that, or correctly point out that Adams was not at that point the star player he later became?

Jennings was a star in 2010. Adams was a star, too, from 2017 on, and an even better one at that. Driver was solid but past his prime. Jones and Nelson were good talents but neither had put it all together in our SB season.

Its okay to admit: Gutey sabotoged the 2022 season with his neglegence and awful patch work of the WR position.

Its also okay to admit that the 2010 WR group was not as good as people remember.

[Labrev]

I will say it's especially bizarre to include James Jones in the mix of amazing WRs as opposed to, say, an Allen Lazard. Jones never cracked 1k yards in his longer career than Lazard. He was a compact 6'1 WR who also didn't have great speed or separation (also a 4.5 guy, at least Lazard is 6'5 at that speed) and in his best seasons was not that much more productive than Lazard this past year.

Jones was also part of the 2015 WR group that we all agree was one of the worst that Rodgers ever had. He wasn't even all that aged at that point, it's just that (much like Lazard) he was not a guy who has the traits to be the #1 WR, even in a season where he was that by default.

[Scott4Pack]

The only problem I have with Gute and Murphy is that they pandered to Rodgers and gave him an unnecessary contract. There have been some bad draft picks, like Amari Rodgers but there have also been some great ones.

If they can get the Jets' 13 pick I'd say they are great. If they find another Gary or Watson with that pick, they walk on water

But this is a Rodgers' thread so I'd like to say something. Until recently I believed that Rodgers would be back next season and lead the Packers to a disaster season, mitigated only by a top 3 pick. Love would be so dis'ed that he would never sign with the Packers. As it turns out, Rodgers has more class than I expected and Gute has more smarts. So we say goodbye to Rodgers and it is now just a little sad that it came to this. He should have played out his contract a year ago and gone elsewhere with the previous season's MVP on his resume, gone out with dignity. The Packers would be sitting pretty too, with Love having a full season under his belt and the Packers having money to spend.

Everyone lost, especially the fans who pay the bill.

I respect your opinion here a lot. However…
:-)

We saw Guty retain an MVP/HOF QB for these past couple of years, even if his skills are starting to decline. That QB has been a great player and is still good, even with any baggage that comes along. But the fact is that we’ve been given the gift of watching an elite player.

We are seeing something that happens to every player; their departure. And like some have said, very few players play their entire career with the one team. The fact that Rodgers is departing and leaving under good terms is a blessing. Very few teams get to a point like this.

Guty has improved an already good team. That also was not a given when he took the GM job. He’s actually doing superior. And with the Rodgers trade forthcoming, he will probably secure at least one decent draft pick and unload some contractual obligations that are very heavy. By August, we will be praising him for this. But even if we don’t, he’s done superior work.

The cup isn’t half full. It is very full.
:-)

[Labrev]

some are happy with one super bowl orchestrated by the previous GM.

some think that GMs should be judged by their own words of "when you have a HOF QB, the expectation is SB".

Some are content with Phillip Rivers style regular season success in the playoffs and big flops in the playoffs when you have a HOF QB.

Some think a GM should be judged against other GMs that were not gifted with HOF QBs and Back to back MVPs, some think he should be judged against other GMs who had that same great fortune.

Simple differences.

I don't think anyone here is content with the playoff flops, other than yoop who recently admitted he doesn't need trophys<sic> but rather needs great offensive football.

That said, I do not see talent/player deficiencies with the 2020 or 2021 teams for those rosters to go the distance.

To the extent that there were issues, they were not really GM issues. They were either coaching fails (Pettine 2020, Drayton 2021, Steno benching Nijman 2021... Gute does not have control over this department), our stars not playing like stars when we needed them most (Rodgers both years, Jones 2020, etc)., position groups of strength not playing up to par when we needed them most (OL both years).

[Yoop]

I disagree, up till MVS last season with us he couldn't run a route to save his bacon, and it was the same with Lazard, if these two could have separated on schedule Lafleur would have designed more 1st or second route progression reads for them

This is a fabricated anecdote to fit a narrative, nothing more.

Yeah Yoop, this one doesn't fly. In 2020, MVS had his career best year in yards and TDs and led the NFL in yards per catch. In 2021, he had a down year--almost identical to his 2019 season. His second best season with the Packers in yards, his best season with the Packers in catches, and his 2nd best season with the Packers in catch rate (still woefully low, as deep threats are), was in his rookie year.

Essentially, MVS was what you see, you get pretty much from the jump. He had a lot of development needed, but mostly stayed a similar player. The only things that really fluctuated over his 4-year stint with the team was his availability, our need for him, and Rodgers' trust in him.

image.png

OK my point is though, imo those are still WR 3 stats, and he barely catches 50% of targeted throws, he showed that in last seasons SB, 5 yrds away from the catch point on a perfectly thrown sideline pass.

Look at Lazard, last year was by far his best season, and that was do to lack of other receiver talent.

again when the QB lacks faith in a receiver to separate, or be where he's suppose to be during route progression check points, then he automatically becomes the last read in the route tree, and thats if the QB has time to re scout his receivers by extending the play

Yoho he botched picking Scantling, Brown and ???? to, Rodgers needed a compliment to Adams, not 3 very raw receivers that didn't amount to a hill of beans as rookies

[Labrev]

I will also add that, on countless occasions, an issue at a given position was fixed simply by promoting the backup and benching the starter. It has happened MANY times: Jenkins over Taylor, Nixon over Amari, Tom over Hanson/Newman, Watson over Watkins, Slaton and later Wyatt over Lowry... and you can add more than a few others to this list.

So we see examples where the GM brought the talent, but the coaches did not recognize which players should be playing more/less.

And yeah, a few of those (e.g. Amari, Watkins) are guys the GM also brought in, but the GM is seldom going to get it right on the first try, so when they *do* get it right, the GM has done their job, and it ultimately befalls the coach needs to make the right personnel decision.

[Yoop]

surely we dont have to sit here and pretend that Adams, MVS, Lazard, and ESB are comparable to Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, James Jones, and Jordy Nelson do we? Please tell me we arent doing this.

What is meant by "comparable to ___" -? Time matters. A player is not the same at one point in his career versus other points, E.G. if I say that Rodgers had Davante Adams in 2015 (also had James Jones btw), who we all know is a great receiver, so Rodgers has no excuse for not producing in 2015... are you just going to accept that, or correctly point out that Adams was not at that point the star player he later became?

Jennings was a star in 2010. Adams was a star, too, from 2017 on, and an even better one at that. Driver was solid but past his prime. Jones and Nelson were good talents but neither had put it all together in our SB season.

Me, I don't know why it didn't quote right.

Adams was hurt in 2015, most here called him a bust, Rodgers and the offense played well enough to win, ST's and $%&# stole that victory.

either ya need 3 units that play mistake free, or one unit has to be tops in the league and the other two at least average.
and when you have only a couple impact players on offense, it's not as good as 3, you and the people that support this WR situation for the last ( forever) simply seem to think going with the bare minimum is good enough, and since it's puked out in every PO game ya just blame the QB. what a joke.
look around the league at the offenses that win PO games, they don't opt for the bare minimums, why you can't admit to this is mind boggling.

Its okay to admit: Gutey sabotoged the 2022 season with his neglegence and awful patch work of the WR position.

Its also okay to admit that the 2010 WR group was not as good as people remember.

[Pckfn23]

again when the QB lacks faith in a receiver to separate, or be where he's suppose to be during route progression check points, then he automatically becomes the last read in the route tree, and thats if the QB has time to re scout his receivers by extending the play

If the QB is doing this, they need to sit their ass on the bench. QB progression should not be based on his "faith" in his receivers. That completely negates play design.

[Yoop]

again when the QB lacks faith in a receiver to separate, or be where he's suppose to be during route progression check points, then he automatically becomes the last read in the route tree, and thats if the QB has time to re scout his receivers by extending the play

If the QB is doing this, they need to sit their ass on the bench. QB progression should not be based on his "faith" in his receivers. That completely negates play design.

that is how it works, if the receiver fails to be at a determined point in his route when the QB reads through his progressions then he wont get looked at again, unless the QB extends the play, football 10 fking 0ne.

and I have no interest in talking to you, please don't tag my post

[Madcity_matt]

The Packers aren't in a terrible salary cap situation. Most contending teams prior to the Covid year that still had a winning window had to get creative with the cap. GB had just had a huge FA season in 2019 which was an unfortunate necessary as the 2015 draft class was pretty terrible. Instead of paying our own guys second contracts, we had to buy other teams salary casualties. Overall, the signings were pretty effective. Unfortunately, after putting out some big contracts, the salary cap unexpectedly shrunk.

Given the circumstances, my opinion is the FO has done a pretty admirable job of keeping a competitive roster through some crazy times.

Last year, they made the gamble to make another run at it after coming up so short the year prior. It was a noble effort but the team came up short. A defense with plenty of talent didn't play as a unit nearly enough of the year. Bakh and Jenkins weren't ready to go early in the season. The young receiver infusion didn't an out for a couple of reasons- Watson suffering a couple injuries early on, lack of cohesion with a QB who skipped every voluntary piece and didn't get on the same page until too late, and the thumb injury that probably should have shut him down. The team was good enough to make a run last year, too many things worked against them.

If I'm judging the GM, as this thread has digressed into (as all threads seem to) on the success of the team, I've always believed its the GM's job to together a team good enough to get the playoffs, it's up to the players/health/luck/etc to win a SB.

[lupedafiasco]

I do find it odd so many knock Rodgers for not having more Super Bowls and the same criticism isn’t applied to the GM who has entirely more control over the outcome of the team than the QB.

[Madcity_matt]

again when the QB lacks faith in a receiver to separate, or be where he's suppose to be during route progression check points, then he automatically becomes the last read in the route tree, and thats if the QB has time to re scout his receivers by extending the play

If the QB is doing this, they need to sit their ass on the bench. QB progression should not be based on his "faith" in his receivers. That completely negates play design.

that is how it works, if the receiver fails to be at a determined point in his route when the QB reads through his progressions then he wont get looked at again, unless the QB extends the play, football 10 fking 0ne.

and I have no interest in talking to you, please don't tag my post

It seems like you are saying two different things here in your original post and your reply yoop. There's a difference between passing a receiver on a given play if he wasn't open, for a variety of reasons. He could be out of position (which can only be known by us outsiders if we had inner knowledge of the routes/adjustments on the play), if he slips, if he is covered, etc. Obviously once you go past a player on progressions, the only way you would likely target him is if the play goes into scramble mode- which is almost a new play of sorts.

When you say the QB changes the order of the reads, I would agree with 23 that this is not acceptable, as the progressions are in a given order based on the structure of the play.

[Crazylegs Starks]

Just gonna put The Draw Play's latest Rodgers comic here for anyone who wants to see it:

https://www.thedrawplay.com/wp-content/ ... odgers.png

[Drj820]

I do find it odd so many knock Rodgers for not having more Super Bowls and the same criticism isn’t applied to the GM who has entirely more control over the outcome of the team than the QB.

I’ve said it many time. Many are pro ownership and front office because they have psuedo stock in the team and they feel they are part of ownership. So criticizing front office decisions is like an attack against themselves. It’s why many won’t criticize a decision to keep a bum around, and then will openly trash the player as soon as the player leaves.

[Scott4Pack]

If you want to read an editorial about the “complicated” Aaron Rodgers, this might be a good place to start. I won’t say that the writer exactly nails it. But he does give a good historical overview of how 12 has had issues with the Pack and how he has chosen to publicly process them.

Overall, worth the read for one person’s view.


https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/3/16 ... kers-drama

[Pckfn23]

again when the QB lacks faith in a receiver to separate, or be where he's suppose to be during route progression check points, then he automatically becomes the last read in the route tree, and thats if the QB has time to re scout his receivers by extending the play

If the QB is doing this, they need to sit their ass on the bench. QB progression should not be based on his "faith" in his receivers. That completely negates play design.

that is how it works, if the receiver fails to be at a determined point in his route when the QB reads through his progressions then he wont get looked at again, unless the QB extends the play, football 10 fking 0ne.

and I have no interest in talking to you, please don't tag my post

If a receiver is consistently not running the correct route, they need to sit their ass on the bench. This is not and was not Lazard or MVS. If a QB if basing their progression on singular routes disrupted or singular mistimed routes and ignoring route professions then they need to sit their ass on the bench.

You are creating something that does not happen to fit your narrative. Starting receivers in the NFL are not consistently running the wrong routes.

[Pckfn23]

I do find it odd so many knock Rodgers for not having more Super Bowls and the same criticism isn’t applied to the GM who has entirely more control over the outcome of the team than the QB.

Who is knocking Rodgers for not having more Super Bowls?