Green Bay Packers News 2023

[BF004]

Bakh is only 31 and is a top 3 OT in league when he’s healthy. He is about 1 pro bowl away from having a very convincing HOF resume.

I want him on our team if we are if we are building towards a ‘24-‘26 possible Super Bowl window.

Damn BF ... 24-26 SB Window ... you in for some pain.

Yes, I get it, worship Rodgers, we are now toast forever, 37 years of cap hell and dark days.

But I would hope with our roster, recent drafts and QB on the contracts he’s going to be in. That should be what we are working towards.

Are we going to get there? 31 other teams going to trying as well, so isn’t bold to say we won’t. It is simply by far the most likely outcome for every team, including the chiefs and eagles.

[lupedafiasco]

It makes sense for The Packers to move on from Bak. It doesn’t make sense for Gutenbumst. Love needs all the talent around him to succeed. If he fails Gutenbumst is in the hot seat. He lost his only scapegoat this off-season.

It’s kind of how I view the Jets too. It’s a terrible move for them to trade for Rodgers. Very good move for their GM though.

[bud fox]

It makes sense for The Packers to move on from Bak. It doesn’t make sense for Gutenbumst. Love needs all the talent around him to succeed. If he fails Gutenbumst is in the hot seat. He lost his only scapegoat this off-season.

It’s kind of how I view the Jets too. It’s a terrible move for them to trade for Rodgers. Very good move for their GM though.

I think Jets will have a team that should be able to compete for a superbowl.

If not Rodgers last year wasn't just a broken thumb, worst receiving group and bad oline effected qb, but rather an age drop off.

I don't suspect that to be the case and think it will be more Brady like in Tampa, especially if its Wilson, OBJ, Hardman and Lazard receiving.

[bud fox]

Bakh is only 31 and is a top 3 OT in league when he’s healthy. He is about 1 pro bowl away from having a very convincing HOF resume.

I want him on our team if we are if we are building towards a ‘24-‘26 possible Super Bowl window.

Damn BF ... 24-26 SB Window ... you in for some pain.

Yes, I get it, worship Rodgers, we are now toast forever, 37 years of cap hell and dark days.

But I would hope with our roster, recent drafts and QB on the contracts he’s going to be in. That should be what we are working towards.

Are we going to get there? 31 other teams going to trying as well, so isn’t bold to say we won’t. It is simply by far the most likely outcome for every team, including the chiefs and eagles.

all on how Love turns out or how you see him now.

I see 26 being rebuild and actually might be 25 if the next 2 years are real bad.

[APB]

I'm sorry but "only" and "31" don't compute for me. He's over 30 and has been ravaged by injuries for 2 1/2 calendar years. What does his HoF resume have to do with '24-'26? That's in the past.

Why are we so ready to forgive injuries to this guy and write off so many others as injury prone or breaking down? I don't trust David Bakhtiari's body with the rigors of the NFL to the tune of a $21M/year deal, let alone to a $40M 2024 cap hit. Let someone else pay for that risk.

While I somewhat agree with your argument here, an observation I can't help but notice:

For someone who argued so strongly for Mercedes Lewis to stay on the team, I'm a little surprised you're not seeing the same "intangibles" argument with Bakhtiari. Sure, their stories are not parallel in regard to salary cap and injury, but if the Packers medical staff feels confident that he's past the knee issues that have sidelined him the past two years - and that, to my knowledge, was his only injury in his "injury-prone" struggle - then I'm certain the org sees some value beyond just another highly paid "has-been" All-Pro.

This offense is going through a transition, to be sure. If Bakh is let go sooner rather than later, who will be that senior highly skilled player who can command the locker room and demand accountability from the young guys commensurate to the argument you passionately made in Lewis' case?

[BF004]

Bakh is only 31 and is a top 3 OT in league when he’s healthy. He is about 1 pro bowl away from having a very convincing HOF resume.

I want him on our team if we are if we are building towards a ‘24-‘26 possible Super Bowl window.

I'm sorry but "only" and "31" don't compute for me. He's over 30 and has been ravaged by injuries for 2 1/2 calendar years. What does his HoF resume have to do with '24-'26? That's in the past.

Why are we so ready to forgive injuries to this guy and write off so many others as injury prone or breaking down? I don't trust David Bakhtiari's body with the rigors of the NFL to the tune of a $21M/year deal, let alone to a $40M 2024 cap hit. Let someone else pay for that risk.

Well looking at it, Lane Johnson and Trent Williams were younger than I was expecting. 32 and 34 last year respectively. I would have guess like 34 and 37, lol.

But yeah, was definitely thinking of the Philly OL with Johnson and Kelce (35) and I was thinking I don't want to miss out on those years of Bakhtiari.

Be interesting to see how we handle him, think we get like ~20M in savings next year if we release him.

[Drj820]

It makes sense for The Packers to move on from Bak. It doesn’t make sense for Gutenbumst. Love needs all the talent around him to succeed. If he fails Gutenbumst is in the hot seat. He lost his only scapegoat this off-season.

It’s kind of how I view the Jets too. It’s a terrible move for them to trade for Rodgers. Very good move for their GM though.

Exactly

[Drj820]

Bakh is only 31 and is a top 3 OT in league when he’s healthy. He is about 1 pro bowl away from having a very convincing HOF resume.

I want him on our team if we are if we are building towards a ‘24-‘26 possible Super Bowl window.

Damn BF ... 24-26 SB Window ... you in for some pain.

Lmaooo

[Drj820]

I know you think you know more than many posters here, you think you know more than the packers org too?

I think they think Bakh is very valuable to have out there with Love and they want them together in Loves first year.

While I also agree that it is better for Love for Bakh to be on the team, I agree with you that I would rather move on and get loot for him and prep the future/clean up the cap.

We are all here, are we not, to discuss our opinions about the team and the way they handle their business, as well as to defend those opinions against the opposing arguments made by our peers. But when I do it, it's because "I think I know better than most?"

No, it is my opinion that the team is mishandling the asset of Bakhtiari and the liability of his contract at present, just as it was my opinion last year that it was time to move on from Aaron Rodgers and that keeping Davante Adams felt imperative. I sometimes do not agree with the decisions and assessments made by the team I root for, which is a surprise to many I suppose, since I'm better known as an organizational/Gutey sycophant.

It's my opinion that our 2023-2024salary cap situation is a large hinderance to building a team and that we need to shed some contractual weight. It is my opinion that shedding weight should start with older players or soon-to-expire contracts who we will not be able to afford to retain moving into the next window.

It is a fact of medium-term recent Packers life that players over 30 rarely get new deals, as the Packers tend to let players walk in free agency before their skills decline in order to avoid paying for past performance and to maximize comp picks. I prefer that mode of operations and while we had a big super bowl window collide with the covid cap contraction in a way that justified moving away from that mode of operations, I would like to see the tea move back in that direction.

It is my opinion that we are uniquely situated to make such a move away from Bakhtiari because we have three players who have competently started at LT over the past 3 years on the roster aside from him, and two of those guys (Nijman and Tom), LT is probably their best/ideal position.

And it is my opinion that we simply can't afford to sign an additional extension for Bakhtiari or Preston Smith due to the cap constraints, emerging young players, and their ages.

You're all welcome to believe otherwise and defend those viewpoints, but when there is a disagreement between me and someone else, assuredly, I believe my own argument is the correct one; or else why else would I be stating it?

Bakh is only 31 and is a top 3 OT in league when he’s healthy. He is about 1 pro bowl away from having a very convincing HOF resume.

I want him on our team if we are if we are building towards a ‘24-‘26 possible Super Bowl window.

I'm sorry but "only" and "31" don't compute for me. He's over 30 and has been ravaged by injuries for 2 1/2 calendar years. What does his HoF resume have to do with '24-'26? That's in the past.

Why are we so ready to forgive injuries to this guy and write off so many others as injury prone or breaking down? I don't trust David Bakhtiari's body with the rigors of the NFL to the tune of a $21M/year deal, let alone to a $40M 2024 cap hit. Let someone else pay for that risk.

You called people idiots and questioned their football knowledge when they didn’t want to bring back m Lewis after missing playoffs last year, now you think the packers org as well as every fan but you is overvaluing Bakh the player.

I think it’s simple..best for long term to go ahead and remove bakh, clean up the cap, go through some growing pains and prepare for the future.

Yet like Lupe said, it’s with out a doubt better for the GM and coach to have Bakh on the 2023 team..because the 2023 team is certainly better with him.

[YoHoChecko]

Ok, I've got some explaining to do. I understand the appearance of some contradictions here. And while I'm actually of the mind that it's ok to not always be consistent to a principle and have different opinions about different circumstances because that's the human condition, in this case, there are some unifying theories.

First, I need to (again) clarify briefly (I promise this time) my Marcedes Lewis comments. My comments that I question people's understanding of football were not if you don't want to bring Lewis back for '24. It was if you don't recognize that he has been a valuable member of the team easily worth the money we have been paying him to date (less than $9 million over 3 years). I even said, directly, if you'd rather spend money on a different veteran TE, feel free. And I based a lot of that stance not on "knowing better," but on trusting the commentary from every single Packer org employee that has been asked about him. Josh Oliver just got a $21 million deal as a blocking TE with almost no receiving production, and Lewis does that as well if not better AND is an absolute model locker room presence. I think people who undervalue running game contributions and locker room contributions and morale-building contributions are missing out on the human side of the largest team sport in mainstream American athletics.

Ok, now I want to unify my position on Bakh, Lewis, and even Davante Adams--along with my discussion of veteran players, such as in the vet WR/Corey Davis conversations, not to mention some salary cap commentary.

I believe strongly that rookies coming into the league facing the biggest transition of their life need veteran leaders in their position room who show by example how to be a professional. It needs to be guys that are good enough or leadery enough to command respect, rather than just a try hard over on the side. I felt it was important for the next generation of WRs to have at least a year with Adams. I think it is important for whatever TEs we draft (especially because TEs rarely contribute as rookies) to have Lewis, who is well known for his work ethic, attention to detail, and fundamental technique work. I think it was/is important that the young guys on the OL like Nijman and Tom had a year with Bakhtiari and have other professionals in the room.

I take this "veteran leadership" role seriously. I think understanding how to work like a pro without having your coaches hound you, but by observing that the guy you look up to, a guy you respect, and a guy you want to emulate is out there working his TAIL off--but not just how hard they work but HOW to work--is the kind of thing that can jump start a career for a younger player, and hasten the transition to the league. It's a steady, reliable principle of mine. And its one MLF has discussed at the owners' meetings and combine commentary.

So yeah, I do want Lewis back, but mostly because he is relatively cheap, fills the precise veteran role I value, and the TE position group is bound to have 1-3 rookies this year. At TE, we can afford one veteran. Just like when discussing WRs, I suggested a cheap prove it deal for Jarvis Landry--a "my ball," dirty work vet slot receiver who will command respect, rather than a trade for a Cory Davis--a guy who gets by running sloppy routes his whole career. And at TE and WR, we ONLY have rookie contracts on the books. Our position groups have no experience, very little money dedicated to them, and a void to fill

At OL we have multiple players who have been on the books longer. Bakh is a great veteran leader type and I honestly think the room suffered from his absence off the field in addition to his absence on the field. I like him as a player, respect him as a leader, and greatly value his past contributions to the team. But he costs a LOT of money. We have also paid Jenkins a LOT of money. We're also coming up on deciding whether Nijman is a starter and will get paid for it, or a swing tackle and will get paid for it or will walk. We Also have already given his two most likely replacements--Nijman and Tom--time in the system with their vet leaders leading by example.

So on the surface, absolutely, I see contradictions. But when you consider position rooms, roles, my thoughts on veteran leadership, cap costs, etc... I really feel like I'm arguing for something consistent. To me, the role of an aging vet on the 2023 Packers is to help show the young guys the way. I want inexpensive leaders who value the finer points of the game and command respect. I want at least one such guy in each position group. I want guys who watch tape the right way, have some tricks of the trade to impart, and go about their day-to-day the way you'd want to see from a coach's/employer's standpoint. I want to help transition younger players into the league with optimal chance for success and motivation. I do NOT want to hang onto very expensive aging players with bad injury histories whose replacements are already in-house. That's the difference.

[Pckfn23]

Bakh is only 31 and is a top 3 OT in league when he’s healthy. He is about 1 pro bowl away from having a very convincing HOF resume.

I want him on our team if we are if we are building towards a ‘24-‘26 possible Super Bowl window.

I'm sorry but "only" and "31" don't compute for me. He's over 30 and has been ravaged by injuries for 2 1/2 calendar years. What does his HoF resume have to do with '24-'26? That's in the past.

Why are we so ready to forgive injuries to this guy and write off so many others as injury prone or breaking down? I don't trust David Bakhtiari's body with the rigors of the NFL to the tune of a $21M/year deal, let alone to a $40M 2024 cap hit. Let someone else pay for that risk.

Well looking at it, Lane Johnson and Trent Williams were younger than I was expecting. 32 and 34 last year respectively. I would have guess like 34 and 37, lol.

But yeah, was definitely thinking of the Philly OL with Johnson and Kelce (35) and I was thinking I don't want to miss out on those years of Bakhtiari.

Be interesting to see how we handle him, think we get like ~20M in savings next year if we release him.

I could see a 2 year extension, essentially a 3 year, $60 million contract with cap hits of $15, $20, and $25 million in 2024, 2025, and 2026 respectively. That puts him at 35 a month into his last contracted season. He had started 5 consecutive games from week 8-12 before a totally unrelated appendectomy sidelined him for 3 games. Chad Clifton was a Pro Bowler at 34. 23 Pro Bowl seasons by tackles aged 34+: https://stathead.com/tiny/UYQw0

[YoHoChecko]

I could see a 2 year extension, essentially a 3 year, $50 million contract with cap hits of $15, $20, and $25 million in 2024, 2025, and 2026 respectively. That puts him at 35 a month into his last contracted season. He had started 5 consecutive games from week 8-12 before a totally unrelated appendectomy sidelined him for 3 games. Chad Clifton was a Pro Bowler at 34. 23 Pro Bowl seasons by tackles aged 34+:

What a reasonable contract suggestion (assuming you meant 3 years, $60 million, considering that's what your numbers add up to)

Unfortunately, you have to add in $15 million in dead money from the previous contract restructures, making those suggested hits $20, $25, and $30 million.

[Pckfn23]

I could see a 2 year extension, essentially a 3 year, $50 million contract with cap hits of $15, $20, and $25 million in 2024, 2025, and 2026 respectively. That puts him at 35 a month into his last contracted season. He had started 5 consecutive games from week 8-12 before a totally unrelated appendectomy sidelined him for 3 games. Chad Clifton was a Pro Bowler at 34. 23 Pro Bowl seasons by tackles aged 34+:

What a reasonable contract suggestion (assuming you meant 3 years, $60 million, considering that's what your numbers add up to)

Unfortunately, you have to add in $15 million in dead money from the previous contract restructures, making those suggested hits $20, $25, and $30 million.

Yes, $60 million. The $19,065,514 can be incorporated into the new contract and still have cap hits of $15, $20, and $25 million.

[Yoop]

well said Yoho, for what we've paid Bahk the last 3 seasons he aught to give us a season for free, in retrospect for what Lewis has given us we should give him a tip over and above the 3 for 9 mil. Jones and Dillon should buy him a rolex, or maybe a caddie

I just can't get on board with thinking we are in transition, Love is more ready to start then even Rodgers was 15 years ago, not saying he has a higher ceiling, just that he seems to have a higher floor, we'll see, I still think with him, this team is capable of making the PO's, I know I'am being optimistic, but over all, the team, OL, Defense should be better then it was last year.

I would not be shocked at all if we used slot 15 on a Tackle, there will be a ready to play Tackle in that range.

[APB]

Thanks for the clarification, [mention]YoHoChecko[/mention].

I think where you and I agree is that there is a definite need and distinct value in having a veteran presence on the field and in the meeting room. Cost obviously becomes a factor but the need remains regardless. I also think we agree that it is much better to move on from a player a little early than too late.

To the first point, I believe Bakh's presence is particularly important for this specific O-Line group. They are relatively young across the board and what little interaction they've had with him the past couple years has largely been watching Bakh practice off to the side of the field with trainers rather than lead the group. I think Bakh still has much to give to that group as well as the youngsters having much to glean from him in day-to-day direct interaction. The cost is prohibitive, yes, but if he's still capable of top5 LT play, it's worth it.

Which leads to the next point. I think this is where our mutually shared general opinions diverge.

I sense you feel the time to move from him, as defined above, is the present. I believe, based upon his most recent performance on the field along with his own and staff comments, that he is finally healthy and that he has several more quality years ahead of him. In other words I think it's too early for the early parting of ways from a player production standpoint.

My hope is the Packers and Bakh are able to come to some sort of extension agreement like [mention]Pckfn23[/mention] outlined above. He's well worth that cost just from a performance standpoint if he continues with this injury recovery trajectory. Factor in the veteran leadership vacuum being left by the departures of Rodgers, Lewis, Crosby, etc and I think we'd be getting a bargain.

[YoHoChecko]

I sense you feel the time to move from him, as defined above, is the present. I believe, based upon his most recent performance on the field along with his own and staff comments, that he is finally healthy and that he has several more quality years ahead of him. In other words I think it's too early for the early parting of ways from a player production standpoint.

My hope is the Packers and Bakh are able to come to some sort of extension agreement like @Pckfn23 outlined above. He's well worth that cost just from a performance standpoint if he continues with this injury recovery trajectory. Factor in the veteran leadership vacuum being left by the departures of Rodgers, Lewis, Crosby, etc and I think we'd be getting a bargain.

Well I felt like the time was the present until he got restructured again. Now I feel like the time is next year, which is almost certain given the cap situation. Though certainly, we can keep him around and avoid having any usable cap space if you prefer that.

What I struggle to understand is why people think a 31-year old is "past his injuries now and will have several good years left" as if it's some matter of fact. Mechi Becton right now is likely not getting his 5th year option because he missed most of the past 2 years with two surgeries on the same knee--much younger. But Bakhtiari had a nightmare of a knee surgery ordeal, a completely random appendectomy, which isn't a playing injury but still is a thing that he had happen to him and had to recover from, and is nearing the age when many if not most OL retire.

I'm simply not willing to risk the cost of an extension to a body that might be breaking down, and I'm suggesting that prior to the latest late-stage Rodgers window, the long-standing practice of the Packers was to move on from the vast majority of their players at this stage of their careers. Exceptions are made and Bakh might be the type to qualify for that. But his injury history, the fact that an extension would be a ton more guaranteed money, his age... it's a huge gamble. And it's being painted here by many like it's the safer option. Because it's comfortable. We can always say "well they had to keep a potential HoF caliber veteran around." They don't have to. It's a massive expensive risk at a time when we don't have massive financial resources and we do have incoming replacements on the roster.

I do agree we need more personality in the OL room, and that personality is best accompanied by talent. One of the reasons I love Darnell Wright is because he's a mauler who errs on the side of over-aggression. One reason I wanted to like Cody Mauch (and still like, but not love) is because he's a mauler demeanor and athletic (needs a lot more functional strength I think, though, to be that guy). For now, Jenkins is the veteran presence of the group, and he's a good lead-by-example. Nijmen also has lead-by-example traits working his way all the way up, but is also quiet. Our longest-tenured OL are good-but-quiet. So I GET wanting Bakh around. I just see him as a risk not worth taking.

[BSA]

I understand the appearance of some contradictions here. And while I'm actually of the mind that it's ok to not always be consistent to a principle and have different opinions about different circumstances because that's the human condition, in this case, there are some unifying theories.

I am not concerned with being consistent in what I say...
I am concerned with being consistent with the Truth as its revealed to me

- gandhi

[YoHoChecko]

Also, and I can't believe I forgot to bring this up before now, Bakhtiari has reportedly turned down the option to add void years to his deal each of the past two seasons. The simple restructures they have done to his deal are the kind that can be done without his input or permission, mostly; turning bonuses into different types of bonus.

To me, that says something. I don't know what it says, but his decision not to cooperate with the team's efforts to save cap space while we paid him $20 million/year for rehab... it's not a great look to me. I'm not sure he'll be the leader we want moving forward because I'm not sure he's particularly happy with the franchise; and that's before we trade his best friend. Sort of like Sitton; big time locker room leader, popular guy, When his leadership was aimed more toward criticism than cooperation, he got the boot--at least that's one theory. Never truly got clarity.

But Bakh's refusal to play ball on the contract side each of the past two years is another reason I'm ready to move on. Even though I'm not sure how to interpret it. Maybe, like me, he just thinks void years are a dangerous way to run a team and he's saving them from themselves, haha. But most likely, he wants to force a decision point next season. That's the most obvious result of those decisions. And if he wants to force a decision point, my decision is made.

[BSA]

What I struggle to understand is why people think a 31-year old is "past his injuries now and will have several good years left" as if it's some matter of fact.

The comments from the MDs who worked with him have been pretty consistent in making that statement. Nobody knows for sure, but its not like the Pro-Bak crew is just sticking their head in the sand. From the info we have, he should be fine on the knee. You are 100 % committed to getting rid of Bak and the anchor he is on the Packers cap - so you read that into every comment/article. Its human nature.

My take home from that article was very different than yours because we each bring our own biases to the table. I think that Bak and his agent wanted to open up a decision window in 2024 so they had options. If they allowed the voids and re-structures, it ties their hands a bit. But them forcing a decision window doesn't necessarily tell us what that decision will be. Bak has a wife and a new baby and he may or may not want to finish in Titletown - and now he more choices available. I did not read it as hardball or a portend of future plans, just a smart biz decision

[YoHoChecko]

My take home from that article was very different than yours because we each bring our own biases to the table. I think that Bak and his agent wanted to open up a decision window in 2024 so they had options. If they allowed the voids and re-structures, it ties their hands a bit.

Here's the thing.

He is the ONLY ONE who got restructured who declined void years. So you're saying that Bakh wants to keep his options open but every other player on the team doesn't care about their options?

It's definitely a data point. It means the decision comes after 2023 instead of after 2024. That's what it means. That's really all it means. Again, I don't know why he did it or read any necessarily malicious intent. But I do know that the result of his own decisions is to make a decision happen earlier than later. That's the result. So yeah, I'm going to read into that that Bakh prefers a decision point about his future to happen earlier than later.