#4 WR

[BF004]

Funny how this poll looks compared to the last thread posted a few days earlier.

[Yoop]

I always appreciate when people say I will withhold judgement. It's boring but it's honest.

However, I also appreciate NCF and Yoho give comparisons so I can either expand or validate my current feelings.

I hate Randall Cobb comparisons (not that it's wrong) because people can't remember 2012 - 2014 Randall Cobb. No matter how hard we try, we can only think of slow, overpaid Randall Cobb.

maybe you forgot, other here saw Cobb as a very polished route runner from his first practice and PS games, I remember saying it back then that Cobb should have played more as a rookie, but we where stacked with receiver talent then, I love Donald Driver as much as anyone, but he was taking snaps away from younger talent.

I think it's hard ( as others have said) to compare these receivers because of differing schemes and coaches, and defenses in there era

I never forgot 2012 - 2014 Cobb. I never said I forgot.

sorry I took it that way, I should have said I didn't forget him as a rookie

[Acrobat]

Quote from today:

“You wouldn’t even recognize the guy compared to last year.” WR coach Jason Vrable on Samori Toure. Added that he’s put on 8-10 pounds.

[YoHoChecko]

Quote from today:

“You wouldn’t even recognize the guy compared to last year.” WR coach Jason Vrable on Samori Toure. Added that he’s put on 8-10 pounds.

Oh nice. I was quietly hoping we were bulking him up. He was so slender. That's a good amount of weight not to disrupt his general smoothness/suddenness, also. That puts him in at about 6'1" 200

Thanks for bringing the quote. I'll have to listen to Vrabel. Hope he's up to the task; a crucial time in the WR room development.

[Drj820]

Toure was in the offense all last year, he’s got a big leg up on any late round rookie. He will be WR4 to start the year and until he blows his shot. I think eventually the 4th spot will be a constant rotation

[YoHoChecko]

Also, not to rain on any parades, but here's how I responded to Vrabel's offseason presser last year (I'd link the video but the link went dead)

Ok, like, Vrabel either has the most over-the-top positive coachspeak or our WR room is gonna be pretty right. Love hearing what I'm hearing about Watkins ("still looks like he did in Buffalo"). Great to hear that the three returning youths (Malik Taylor, Winfree, and Amari) are doing all the things right and look like night and day different players--particularly that Amari will look faster, quicker, stronger... and is getting the offense to start to click.

So

[Yoop]

Toure was in the offense all last year, he’s got a big leg up on any late round rookie. He will be WR4 to start the year and until he blows his shot. I think eventually the 4th spot will be a constant rotation

Wicks was a 5th rounder, some, in fact many say he was a steal for us, based on his junior season some scouts ranked him a top 50 player, so our WR competition should be intense

[Drj820]

Toure was in the offense all last year, he’s got a big leg up on any late round rookie. He will be WR4 to start the year and until he blows his shot. I think eventually the 4th spot will be a constant rotation

Wicks was a 5th rounder, some, in fact many say he was a steal for us, based on his junior season some scouts ranked him a top 50 player, so our WR competition should be intense

If toure can’t beat a 5th round rookie out of camp to start the year, he should be cut.

[YoHoChecko]

If toure can’t beat a 5th round rookie out of camp to start the year, he should be cut.

See, just when I'm starting to come around on where Toure is and where he's rated, things like this just confuse the bejesus out of me. The difference between a 2nd-year 7th round pick and a 1st-year 5th round pick just isn't the kind of gap that should lead to sweeping statements that if one can't beat the other, they should be cut. Especially when the two players are so different stylistically.

I dunno; I see Toure as one of the more promising 7th round picks in a minute, but it does not erase that he's a 7th-round pick who played only a small handful of snaps as a rookie.

I think outside of Watson-Doubs-Reed, the stacking of the WRs is a total and complete free-for-all in which I would be no more surprised by Grant DuBose or Bo Melton being 4th in WR snaps or targets than Toure or Wicks. No one is proven. Being a 2nd year is a huge advantage in May. By September it'll be a marginal advantage, depending on how guys learn.

[Drj820]

If toure can’t beat a 5th round rookie out of camp to start the year, he should be cut.

See, just when I'm starting to come around on where Toure is and where he's rated, things like this just confuse the bejesus out of me. The difference between a 2nd-year 7th round pick and a 1st-year 5th round pick just isn't the kind of gap that should lead to sweeping statements that if one can't beat the other, they should be cut. Especially when the two players are so different stylistically.

I dunno; I see Toure as one of the more promising 7th round picks in a minute, but it does not erase that he's a 7th-round pick who played only a small handful of snaps as a rookie.

I think outside of Watson-Doubs-Reed, the stacking of the WRs is a total and complete free-for-all in which I would be no more surprised by Grant DuBose or Bo Melton being 4th in WR snaps or targets than Toure or Wicks. No one is proven. Being a 2nd year is a huge advantage in May. By September it'll be a marginal advantage, depending on how guys learn.

There are only 53 spots on a team. Some rookie 7th round picks don’t even always make the team. If you are a 7th rounder in year 2 and you aren’t beating out other later round rookies…in September…you absolutely traditionally are on the chopping block

However, I believe it will be toure who is WR4 out of camp and the spot will evolve into a steady rotation.

But ya, if he can’t see the field because rookies have leaped him…bye bye

[NCF]

Being a 2nd year is a huge advantage in May. By September it'll be a marginal advantage, depending on how guys learn.

This is partially true, I think, but I will give it more importance than you. Gutey/LaFleur have developed a reputation, at this point, of bringing rookies along slowly to the point that you can't really refute it and say I expect 2023 WR to be the exception. Why would it be?

It is also interesting with some of these late round picks to go back and see what the vision was when they were picked. Toure's supposed physical development is intriguing to the point where maybe we shouldn't be comparing our crop of rookie WR's to Toure the 7th round pick, but rather Toure the 2023 WR. It's easy to refer back to the scouting report and 2022 because we haven't seen him on the field, yet. I also think there is some fairness to suggest that, if these late round picks hit, it isn't some marginal improvement, but a quantum leap. Contrast that with, say, Devonte Wyatt, as a high-round draft pick and you are not expecting massive physical improvement. Just learning/consistency/technique, etc.

I'll stop rambling by saying I am very excited for Toure but it very obviously could go either way. He could be a major 2023 contributor for the Packers and he could just as easily be out of the league. We'll see, but let me be excited for now.

[williewasgreat]

If toure can’t beat a 5th round rookie out of camp to start the year, he should be cut.

See, just when I'm starting to come around on where Toure is and where he's rated, things like this just confuse the bejesus out of me. The difference between a 2nd-year 7th round pick and a 1st-year 5th round pick just isn't the kind of gap that should lead to sweeping statements that if one can't beat the other, they should be cut. Especially when the two players are so different stylistically.

I dunno; I see Toure as one of the more promising 7th round picks in a minute, but it does not erase that he's a 7th-round pick who played only a small handful of snaps as a rookie.

I think outside of Watson-Doubs-Reed, the stacking of the WRs is a total and complete free-for-all in which I would be no more surprised by Grant DuBose or Bo Melton being 4th in WR snaps or targets than Toure or Wicks. No one is proven. Being a 2nd year is a huge advantage in May. By September it'll be a marginal advantage, depending on how guys learn.

There are only 53 spots on a team. Some rookie 7th round picks don’t even always make the team. If you are a 7th rounder in year 2 and you aren’t beating out other later round rookies…in September…you absolutely traditionally are on the chopping block

However, I believe it will be toure who is WR4 out of camp and the spot will evolve into a steady rotation.

But ya, if he can’t see the field because rookies have leaped him…bye bye

This is not necessarily true. If a rookie is performing incredibly well, that doesn't mean Toure is bad and should be cut. He still may be doing very well too!

[Yoop]

last year showed either that we had to start and play rookie receivers because of the lack of seasoned vets, or it showed that if you can learn some routes and do them well, then you'll get a shot, if ya pro rate Watson game snaps and targeted throws he would have had 100 targets and over a 1000 yrds, and Doubs wasn't far behind.

We've also seen players like Hill, Irvin schemed up for specific roles, my point is I think it depends on depth of the position, and even McCarthy and by extension Rodgers penchant for mistake free play that kept Rookie receivers out.

We also have this thing called the practice squad where receivers unable to make the 53 can go to polish there play till ready to compete for a spot .

I suppose I came off harsh with Toure, but last season was a lot easier for him to get on the field then it will be this year, again, according to some draft people, we stole Wicks, so if thats true then I expect he'll earn a jersey.

[TheSkeptic]

This is not necessarily true. If a rookie is performing incredibly well, that doesn't mean Toure is bad and should be cut. He still may be doing very well too!

Agree. The Packers will certainly keep 6 WR's, maybe 7. Watson, Doubs and Reed are locks. Even if 2 of the new guys are steals, it does not mean that Toure is bad. fyi, I think 6 and Wicks and Melton and Toure are the final 3.

[YoHoChecko]

I also think there is some fairness to suggest that, if these late round picks hit, it isn't some marginal improvement, but a quantum leap. Contrast that with, say, Devonte Wyatt, as a high-round draft pick and you are not expecting massive physical improvement. Just learning/consistency/technique, etc.

This is the root of our disagreement. I have compared Toure to Adam Theilan since day one, in terms of upside, style, and development.

If you look at Theilan's trajectory it went:
Year 1: undrafted, PS
Year 2: 2 starts, 13 targets; STer
Year 3: 2 starts, 18 targets; STer
Year 4: 10 starts, 92 targets
Year 5: Pro Bowl

Simialry, though a bit of Packers sacreledge, here's Donald Driver:
Year 1: 7th round, 0 starts, 6 targets
Year 2: 2 starts, 49 targets (split time with rookie Charles Lee as WR 4/5)
Year 3: 2 starts, 19 targets (still splitting time with Lee and Corey Bradford)
Year 4: Pro Bowl

My point being that, no, late round guys do not quantum leap. They have small, meticulous, incremental development just like the rest, but they have even further to go.

By all accounts, Toure has the basic skillset, feel, football IQ worth developing. I like him. I am here, comparing him to two Pro Bowlers, but doing so in order to temper expectations for the immediate future. I'm reminded of a quote from our TE coach's presser this week:

There's no substitute for doing... I wish there was a magic, 'Hey this will get you there faster.' But the greatest part about sport is it really is a process.

[Yoop]

thanks for the driver comparisons, I was going to bring him into this the other day, there is a reason players are slotted by round, typically it has to do with readiness to play and the amount of development still required, not always, scouts do miss on a player and the reasons are many, if a team see's a future high ceiling in a recruit that player will hang around, Driver took all 3 years to groom up, Theilan, and most other late round picks as well.

[Foosball]

Since he’s probably not much of a blocker at this stage, I’m going to say Tucker Kraft.

[YoHoChecko]

Since he’s probably not much of a blocker at this stage, I’m going to say Tucker Kraft.

I'd guess Musgrave would be more in the mold of "not enough blocking to be more than a jumbo slot receiver" as a rookie, but nice general idea going TE

[YoHoChecko]

Slightly less prevalent in the coaching commentary this week than the notes on Toure looking like a different person, was this full quote of Vrabel about Jayden Reed:

I've had just about every coach come up to me, on our staff, and be like, 'Holy wow. That guy is twitchy, fast and explosive.' He has all those traits. You could see it on the college tape. Toss him a ball and he's gonna go make a play. But probably the more impressive thing is just his mentality. I told him the other day, I said, 'You remind me of Randall (Cobb). You really do. You're laser-focused. Your love for football. The other day, I was just thrilled for him. I said, 'You really love ball, don't you?' He's like, 'This is everything, Coach.' There's something about guys who end up being successful that have that inner drive. When he walks into the building, his eyes are like all ball.

[bud fox]

He must've meant reminded him of Jennings.

Typo.