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Serious question: How do you improve tackling performance for a unit of NFL players with so many limits on practice and camp contact, and without risking more injury damage than it's worth?
We keep having tackling issues, including and not limited to Savage, and we talk about working on it... but how does that improve? Do the best tackling teams do things differently? Or do they draft players who come out of college as sure tacklers?
Evidence/reason only. I'm not interested in platitudes about being tougher or whatever.
Gotta drill it and some teams use live tackling into pads. I want to say we did that in 2021 and it led to success. Another aspect is angles and being being in the right place. Tackling is made a lot harder if the angle is wrong.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
Evidence/reason only. I'm not interested in platitudes about being tougher or whatever.
I know what you're saying, but I do think coaching an aggressive mindset has a significant influence on how well they tackle.
Hard disagree. Lots of bad tackles are aggressive over pursuers who come in off balance and out of position or who just make the thud but not the wrap up. It’s actually, in my view, the most common form of bad tackling. Rare on the football field to see the “shy away from contact” guys. They rarely get this far.
Evidence/reason only. I'm not interested in platitudes about being tougher or whatever.
I know what you're saying, but I do think coaching an aggressive mindset has a significant influence on how well they tackle.
Hard disagree. Lots of bad tackles are aggressive over pursuers who come in off balance and out of position or who just make the thud but not the wrap up. It’s actually, in my view, the most common form of bad tackling. Rare on the football field to see the “shy away from contact” guys. They rarely get this far.
I think it's a mindset, of I don't want to hurt myself making a tackle, and there is less chance of that with a bump then a wrap, that and we just don't spend time on tackling, and we see the over aggressive style, we saw it plenty with Walker last year, and unnecessary roughing or illegal hit penalty's play a part in this as well
use to be a mean game, only the strong survive, thats how the game was coached, the Doug Planks of the nfl secondary wrecked havoc on unsuspecting offensive players, and wore it like a badge of honor, and player made no secret of targeting players.
the nfl in it's infinite wisdom finally saw the error of uncivilized football once old retired players started suing for more health coverage from all the concussions and crippling injury's, and active stars of the league out with season ending injury, some times the pendulum swings to far upon correction, maybe why tackling suffers
Last edited by Yoop on 20 May 2023 13:42, edited 1 time in total.
Doesn’t sound like they plan on giving a 5th round pick to get rid of savage
when Savage was allowed to do that he was one of the best safety's in the league, so it would seem some sort of 2 high safety or cover 2 is his best fit, just as our CB also seem best in some sort of man coverage, zone requires that everyone know the terminology and reads perfectly, to have to think about what your assignment is equates to being late to make a play, don't we see a lot of that?
with coach Barry we've seen him force players to adjust to his schemes, instead of he adjusting his schemes to the talent we have, this isn't one player not fitting in, last year the whole secondary struggled to adapt to his cover 3 format for over half a season, if it starts that way again don't wait, fire him early and let Williams or someone else run the D
I'm also generally blaming Barry for the performance of the D last year, but as fans we don't have the knowledge much of the time of what the correct call and coverage is. Sometimes it only takes one player not being assignment sound to blow the whole thing.
ahh, OK
point is we see it from not just one, we see it over and over from different players, and from seasoned vets, so obviously the terminology is toooo complicated, and we don't have to know anything about the play call, or who's responsible, it's plain enough for us to just see the hesitation from the players as the play unfolds.
Doesn’t sound like they plan on giving a 5th round pick to get rid of savage
when Savage was allowed to do that he was one of the best safety's in the league, so it would seem some sort of 2 high safety or cover 2 is his best fit, just as our CB also seem best in some sort of man coverage, zone requires that everyone know the terminology and reads perfectly, to have to think about what your assignment is equates to being late to make a play, don't we see a lot of that?
with coach Barry we've seen him force players to adjust to his schemes, instead of he adjusting his schemes to the talent we have, this isn't one player not fitting in, last year the whole secondary struggled to adapt to his cover 3 format for over half a season, if it starts that way again don't wait, fire him early and let Williams or someone else run the D
Savage has never been "one of the best safeties in the league", but early on he had some plays that showed he had that ceiling.
As a rookie, he guessed A LOT and went all-in on a bunch of plays. When he was right -> eye-popping plays. When he guessed wrong -> Opponent wide open. Since he was a rookie, we forgave the doo-doo plays because of him being raw. He no longer has that excuse.
No wonder coaches tried to get rid off the guessing and to have him play more under control, but unfortunately to me it seems Savage isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to anticipation and play recognition. I sure hope the light bulb comes on this season, since the ceiling remains very high.
Doesn’t sound like they plan on giving a 5th round pick to get rid of savage
when Savage was allowed to do that he was one of the best safety's in the league, so it would seem some sort of 2 high safety or cover 2 is his best fit, just as our CB also seem best in some sort of man coverage, zone requires that everyone know the terminology and reads perfectly, to have to think about what your assignment is equates to being late to make a play, don't we see a lot of that?
with coach Barry we've seen him force players to adjust to his schemes, instead of he adjusting his schemes to the talent we have, this isn't one player not fitting in, last year the whole secondary struggled to adapt to his cover 3 format for over half a season, if it starts that way again don't wait, fire him early and let Williams or someone else run the D
Savage has never been "one of the best safeties in the league", but early on he had some plays that showed he had that ceiling.
As a rookie, he guessed A LOT and went all-in on a bunch of plays. When he was right -> eye-popping plays. When he guessed wrong -> Opponent wide open. Since he was a rookie, we forgave the doo-doo plays because of him being raw. He no longer has that excuse.
No wonder coaches tried to get rid off the guessing and to have him play more under control, but unfortunately to me it seems Savage isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer when it comes to anticipation and play recognition. I sure hope the light bulb comes on this season, since the ceiling remains very high.
I don't think Savage wanted the team to pick up his 5th season, I think Savage wanted a trade when he was benched. once they moved him to the star position he picked right back up to late 2020 form
Among NFL safeties, finished the 2020 regular season No. 2 in passes defensed (12) and tied for No. 5 with four interceptions (stathead.com).
Evidence/reason only. I'm not interested in platitudes about being tougher or whatever.
I know what you're saying, but I do think coaching an aggressive mindset has a significant influence on how well they tackle.
Hard disagree. Lots of bad tackles are aggressive over pursuers who come in off balance and out of position or who just make the thud but not the wrap up. It’s actually, in my view, the most common form of bad tackling. Rare on the football field to see the “shy away from contact” guys. They rarely get this far.
Yes, too often players try to make a "big hit" instead of wrapping up and using good technique to make the tackle. it seems like splash plays that make the highlights has become more important than actually tackling the opponent.
Evidence/reason only. I'm not interested in platitudes about being tougher or whatever.
I know what you're saying, but I do think coaching an aggressive mindset has a significant influence on how well they tackle.
Hard disagree. Lots of bad tackles are aggressive over pursuers who come in off balance and out of position or who just make the thud but not the wrap up. It’s actually, in my view, the most common form of bad tackling. Rare on the football field to see the “shy away from contact” guys. They rarely get this far.
I disagree with your assertion of there being very few “shy away from contact” guys. Or maybe we just classify them differently?
I see players making “business decisions” all the time. These are the players that will either avoid hard contact altogether or simply throw a shoulder at the legs of a runner as he’s flying by. I think we’re talking about much the same thing only categorizing them differently.
Most teams that don’t tackle well, don’t tackle well as a unit.
Most teams that tackle well, tackle well as a unit.
This either means some teams prioritize finding guys who have a history of tackling well, or tackling is about technique and some teams focus on coaching the technique relentless and demand the technique be employed when reviewing tape and resigning players.
Most teams that don’t tackle well, don’t tackle well as a unit.
Most teams that tackle well, tackle well as a unit.
This either means some teams prioritize finding guys who have a history of tackling well, or tackling is about technique and some teams focus on coaching the technique relentless and demand the technique be employed when reviewing tape and resigning players.
the business decision is part of the bump hit and no wrap thing, and playing smart in hopes of avoiding injury isn't all bad either, and I don't think it's the major reason for our inability to stop the run, being amongst the worst defenses to stop the run year after year is a front 7 thing, our DL and ILBs simply wont honor there assigned gaps, so to me it's a discipline thing, no milk and cookies for these gaffers
It seemed to me that our tackling improved later in the year when Barry started attacking the LOS more. I thought the first half of the year we were a read and react defense but later in the year we attacked more. Not sure if the tackling numbers improved in those later games but the eye test sure looked better.
Adams was franchised for $20.1 million, wasn’t he? If I recall, the franchise number was due to a r guaranteed 20% raise if tagged. The standard WR franchise tag that year was $17 M for the exclusive tag.
We all knew Adam’s wanted the annual amount Hopkins got, but Hopkins got a 2 year extension with 2-3 years left so his new money annual average was highly skewed.
The packers offered Adams a deal on line with the franchise tag and market at the time, which honestly should have been around 20-21 M. He says they came in under 20. Don’t know if that’s the opening or final offer.
When he was traded, he said that once they didn’t get the deal done the previous year, he knew he wanted to leave. We’re all know that the Packers more than matched the Raiders’ eventual offer, which put him just ahead of the Hopkins deal, but also took place after the salary cap resumed expansion after 2020 and 2021 both being below 2019.
It was an unfortunate confluence of circumstances in which a cap crunch, a single skewed bad contract at the position, and the uncertainty of Rodgers’ future with the team made for tough negotiations in 2021. And in 2022, he left.
I’m still mad about it a little. Mad isn’t the right word; disappointed. I always thought they should prioritize keeping Adams over Rodgers in 2022, but the things that happened in 2021 prevented that. It’s unfortunate.
But it’s not new information, and it’s not a black and white situation of low balling or burning their players. Even Adams said he has no hard feelings and still talks to these guys. He wasn’t disrespected. He want treated poorly in his way out.
For a variety of reasons, he just couldn’t get the contract he wanted in 2021, so he decided he would move on when he can. And all those factors like his best friend, more outdoor time with family, a quicker flight home to his mom… they helped decide where.
Adams was franchised for $20.1 million, wasn’t he? If I recall, the franchise number was due to a r guaranteed 20% raise if tagged. The standard WR franchise tag that year was $17 M for the exclusive tag.
We all knew Adam’s wanted the annual amount Hopkins got, but Hopkins got a 2 year extension with 2-3 years left so his new money annual average was highly skewed.
The packers offered Adams a deal on line with the franchise tag and market at the time, which honestly should have been around 20-21 M. He says they came in under 20. Don’t know if that’s the opening or final offer.
When he was traded, he said that once they didn’t get the deal done the previous year, he knew he wanted to leave. We’re all know that the Packers more than matched the Raiders’ eventual offer, which put him just ahead of the Hopkins deal, but also took place after the salary cap resumed expansion after 2020 and 2021 both being below 2019.
It was an unfortunate confluence of circumstances in which a cap crunch, a single skewed bad contract at the position, and the uncertainty of Rodgers’ future with the team made for tough negotiations in 2021. And in 2022, he left.
I’m still mad about it a little. Mad isn’t the right word; disappointed. I always thought they should prioritize keeping Adams over Rodgers in 2022, but the things that happened in 2021 prevented that. It’s unfortunate.
But it’s not new information, and it’s not a black and white situation of low balling or burning their players. Even Adams said he has no hard feelings and still talks to these guys. He wasn’t disrespected. He want treated poorly in his way out.
For a variety of reasons, he just couldn’t get the contract he wanted in 2021, so he decided he would move on when he can. And all those factors like his best friend, more outdoor time with family, a quicker flight home to his mom… they helped decide where.
why would you want to keep a receiver who relies on the QB over that QB, sorry Yoho That doesn't compute for me.
QB is the MVP on any team if they are the caliber of Rodgers, receivers, very good receivers are easier to obtain then those QB's, again what we did wrong was rely on one of the very best receivers, versus finding replacements till he was so expensive we had to let him go.
my goal, and it should be every fans desire is to have two very good receivers then just 1 of the very best, not only does it keep the cost of the position lower, it also gives the QB another top receiver to play with so they avoid tunnel vision as we saw with Adams.
I new when we didn't redo Adams contract during the 2021 season that he was not coming back, tag or no tag and I was never on board with paying him what the Raiders, the FO painted themselves in a corner with Adams, and the result of those actions was on full display last year, just terrible mis management, theres no way else for me to describe it.
why would you want to keep a receiver who relies on the QB over that QB, sorry Yoho That doesn't compute for me.
QB is the MVP on any team if they are the caliber of Rodgers, receivers, very good receivers are easier to obtain then those QB's, again what we did wrong was rely on one of the very best receivers, versus finding replacements till he was so expensive we had to let him go.
my goal, and it should be every fans desire is to have two very good receivers then just 1 of the very best, not only does it keep the cost of the position lower, it also gives the QB another top receiver to play with so they avoid tunnel vision as we saw with Adams.
I new when we didn't redo Adams contract during the 2021 season that he was not coming back, tag or no tag and I was never on board with paying him what the Raiders, the FO painted themselves in a corner with Adams, and the result of those actions was on full display last year, just terrible mis management, theres no way else for me to describe it.
why would you want to keep a receiver who relies on the QB over that QB, sorry Yoho That doesn't compute for me.
QB is the MVP on any team if they are the caliber of Rodgers, receivers, very good receivers are easier to obtain then those QB's, again what we did wrong was rely on one of the very best receivers, versus finding replacements till he was so expensive we had to let him go.
my goal, and it should be every fans desire is to have two very good receivers then just 1 of the very best, not only does it keep the cost of the position lower, it also gives the QB another top receiver to play with so they avoid tunnel vision as we saw with Adams.
I new when we didn't redo Adams contract during the 2021 season that he was not coming back, tag or no tag and I was never on board with paying him what the Raiders, the FO painted themselves in a corner with Adams, and the result of those actions was on full display last year, just terrible mis management, theres no way else for me to describe it.
You're doing it again, @Yoop...
the only thing I'am doing is giving my opinion, and I don't give a hoot about having the very best player in the league and paying him the most, you hated it with Rodgers, so did I, and no way I'd prefer Adams over 2 not quite as good.
you just don't like me slamming this FO for there idiotic decisions.
