2023 Packers Defense Expectations?

[Yoop]

well if all of you are in it together Matt, and what we've seen is a conglomeration of all your efforts, then this coming off season ( or even sooner) the team should fire you and the rest of these coaches because your product is very disappointing, and if Guty's idea of a back up G is Newman then maybe he should go with ya'll

for some reason I feel sympathy for Matt Lafleur, maybe because I like him, the rest, not so much

[Papa John]

One of life's great mysteries...

I basically came to the same conclusion, that it is an organization-wide problem, last season when i foolishly predicted Green Bay would have a top 10 defense for the first time since 2010 (based upon what I thought was a unit too talented to rank lower than that).

The Defense was soft and failed to stop the run under Capers after 2010 and under Pettine and now under Barry and with Mac as the Head Coach and now with MLF as the Head Coach even though every single first-round pick since 2012 other than Jordan Love has gone to the defensive side of the ball.

I think it might be time to consider whether at least part of the problem stems from those who scout, evaluate, and select defensive players because some of those folks have been in place since 2011 and it is not getting any better.

This is a concern of mine as well. Seems like the defense has been afflicted by the same issue for going on 13 years now. In a nutshell, it plays soft. And it's been that way in spite of being led by multiple different DC's. Not just the softness but these same philosophies that set us up to fail (misalignments in the front, playing prevent D when the situation calls for aggression).

Why the $%@# do we do it this way year in and year out?? I hate this bend-but-don't-break BS. Even in 2010 we were bend-but-don't-break, the difference was that that defense actually generated turnovers. Why can't we take a defensive approach like SF or the 2010's NYG- forget bending, don't give them a $%@# inch!! Looks like the Lions have figured that out before we have, unfortunately.

We need to find whomever is responsible for this ongoing mediocrity and do everything within our power to get their ass &%$@ canned. I've seen enough.

[lupedafiasco]

The defense was getting run over before Joe Barry. Maybe it’s not a him problem but a HCs philosophy problem.

[Pugger]

Well I’ll be damned…

He's right. But didn't he say that last year in the first half of the season too? I'm not about letting them figure this out and adjust midway through the season. That's what they did last year. They waited half the year to figure out better stuff.

What they should do is see how they can emulate what the Lions just did to them and make that work for the current roster as much as possible. The Lions DLine isn't all that special if you don't include the edge guys. They just know what they do well and do that.

The crazy part is Barry seems to revert back to the same stuff that didn't work the prior year to begin each new year. You know, the bad scheme and alignment stuff that he was forced to abandon to save his job is what he goes right back to the next year. He's done it 3 years running now.

Yes, this is concerning. He doesn't seem capable of seeing the errors of his way. The fact MLF keeps him around is another one of life's mysteries.

[Pugger]

I feel like the record player has been set to repeat…

Dear God...

[Yoop]

One of life's great mysteries...

I basically came to the same conclusion, that it is an organization-wide problem, last season when i foolishly predicted Green Bay would have a top 10 defense for the first time since 2010 (based upon what I thought was a unit too talented to rank lower than that).

The Defense was soft and failed to stop the run under Capers after 2010 and under Pettine and now under Barry and with Mac as the Head Coach and now with MLF as the Head Coach even though every single first-round pick since 2012 other than Jordan Love has gone to the defensive side of the ball.

I think it might be time to consider whether at least part of the problem stems from those who scout, evaluate, and select defensive players because some of those folks have been in place since 2011 and it is not getting any better.

This is a concern of mine as well. Seems like the defense has been afflicted by the same issue for going on 13 years now. In a nutshell, it plays soft. And it's been that way in spite of being led by multiple different DC's. Not just the softness but these same philosophies that set us up to fail (misalignments in the front, playing prevent D when the situation calls for aggression).

Why the $%@# do we do it this way year in and year out?? I hate this bend-but-don't-break BS. Even in 2010 we were bend-but-don't-break, the difference was that that defense actually generated turnovers. Why can't we take a defensive approach like SF or the 2010's NYG- forget bending, don't give them a $%@# inch!! Looks like the Lions have figured that out before we have, unfortunately.

We need to find whomever is responsible for this ongoing mediocrity and do everything within our power to get their ass &%$@ canned. I've seen enough.

JMO, first off most teams go to prevent to some extent when they have a lead, specially late in games and even more so with a bigger then one score lead, seems normal, our 2010 defense was a ball hawking unit, our safety Nicky Boy Collins sure wasn't in prevent when he gobbled up that pass a raced for that pre half time TD.

also often a DC is limited in what coverages he can use dependent on personal, through much of the Capers tenure we had issue with health and quality at CB, went years minus safety talent period, even longer looking for a coverage lber.

under both Pettine and now Barry our defensive personal are vastly better then the last 6 years of the Capers tenure, there are no excuses for our defensive woes under either coach.

[LombardiTime]

Pending tomorrow's slate of games, the Packers rank 21st in points allowed per game at 22.5. That is worse than last season's 15th ranking and 21.5 ppg.

So far, they have faced Justin Fields, Desmond Ritter, Derek Carr (for just over a half) and Jared Goff. Not exactly a murderer's row of QBs.

In his press conference just 5 months ago right after selecting LVN, Gute was quoted as follows: "I sat here last year and said the same thing. I think we had really good moments last year, but the consistency has to be better. We put a lot of investment into that group and there are high expectations there."

https://www.packers.com/news/expectatio ... investment

Does anyone else wonder whether if Gute had the authority to fire Barry he would have done so by now?

I cannot imagine he is happy watching "a lot of investment" as he put it playing the way it is and has been the past 2 seasons.

[Papa John]

I basically came to the same conclusion, that it is an organization-wide problem, last season when i foolishly predicted Green Bay would have a top 10 defense for the first time since 2010 (based upon what I thought was a unit too talented to rank lower than that).

The Defense was soft and failed to stop the run under Capers after 2010 and under Pettine and now under Barry and with Mac as the Head Coach and now with MLF as the Head Coach even though every single first-round pick since 2012 other than Jordan Love has gone to the defensive side of the ball.

I think it might be time to consider whether at least part of the problem stems from those who scout, evaluate, and select defensive players because some of those folks have been in place since 2011 and it is not getting any better.

This is a concern of mine as well. Seems like the defense has been afflicted by the same issue for going on 13 years now. In a nutshell, it plays soft. And it's been that way in spite of being led by multiple different DC's. Not just the softness but these same philosophies that set us up to fail (misalignments in the front, playing prevent D when the situation calls for aggression).

Why the $%@# do we do it this way year in and year out?? I hate this bend-but-don't-break BS. Even in 2010 we were bend-but-don't-break, the difference was that that defense actually generated turnovers. Why can't we take a defensive approach like SF or the 2010's NYG- forget bending, don't give them a $%@# inch!! Looks like the Lions have figured that out before we have, unfortunately.

We need to find whomever is responsible for this ongoing mediocrity and do everything within our power to get their ass &%$@ canned. I've seen enough.

JMO, first off most teams go to prevent to some extent when they have a lead, specially late in games and even more so with a bigger then one score lead, seems normal, our 2010 defense was a ball hawking unit, our safety Nicky Boy Collins sure wasn't in prevent when he gobbled up that pass a raced for that pre half time TD.

also often a DC is limited in what coverages he can use dependent on personal, through much of the Capers tenure we had issue with health and quality at CB, went years minus safety talent period, even longer looking for a coverage lber.

under both Pettine and now Barry our defensive personal are vastly better then the last 6 years of the Capers tenure, there are no excuses for our defensive woes under either coach.

Yoop I know that you've always been a Capers apologist and I will be grateful to him for coordinating that Super Bowl defense- he was masterful for that 1 year. I will even grant you the point about injuries. But I will never forgive Dom Capers for floating some of the dumbest defensive ideas I have ever seen over the following ~9 years that he was kept on as DC. SF must have had pictures of him on Epstein's island because every single time they had a 3rd and short, our defense would come out with 2 downed linemen and Perry, Clay, and Erik Walden, etc. trying to stop the run against the best o-line in football. It actually made me think of flies trying to stop an oncoming bulldozer. My heart goes out to the players who had to sacrifice their bodies/health unnecessarily because of this nonsense.

That being said, I agree that Pettine and Barry both have had better personnel to work with than Capers did. You are correct, there are no excuses at this point.

[APB]

I basically came to the same conclusion, that it is an organization-wide problem, last season when i foolishly predicted Green Bay would have a top 10 defense for the first time since 2010 (based upon what I thought was a unit too talented to rank lower than that).

The Defense was soft and failed to stop the run under Capers after 2010 and under Pettine and now under Barry and with Mac as the Head Coach and now with MLF as the Head Coach even though every single first-round pick since 2012 other than Jordan Love has gone to the defensive side of the ball.

I think it might be time to consider whether at least part of the problem stems from those who scout, evaluate, and select defensive players because some of those folks have been in place since 2011 and it is not getting any better.

This is a concern of mine as well. Seems like the defense has been afflicted by the same issue for going on 13 years now. In a nutshell, it plays soft. And it's been that way in spite of being led by multiple different DC's. Not just the softness but these same philosophies that set us up to fail (misalignments in the front, playing prevent D when the situation calls for aggression).

Why the $%@# do we do it this way year in and year out?? I hate this bend-but-don't-break BS. Even in 2010 we were bend-but-don't-break, the difference was that that defense actually generated turnovers. Why can't we take a defensive approach like SF or the 2010's NYG- forget bending, don't give them a $%@# inch!! Looks like the Lions have figured that out before we have, unfortunately.

We need to find whomever is responsible for this ongoing mediocrity and do everything within our power to get their ass &%$@ canned. I've seen enough.

JMO, first off most teams go to prevent to some extent when they have a lead, specially late in games and even more so with a bigger then one score lead, seems normal, our 2010 defense was a ball hawking unit, our safety Nicky Boy Collins sure wasn't in prevent when he gobbled up that pass a raced for that pre half time TD.

also often a DC is limited in what coverages he can use dependent on personal, through much of the Capers tenure we had issue with health and quality at CB, went years minus safety talent period, even longer looking for a coverage lber.

under both Pettine and now Barry our defensive personal are vastly better then the last 6 years of the Capers tenure, there are no excuses for our defensive woes under either coach.

OMG

You're still building a defense for Capers after all these years...

[Labrev]

Yoop is correct.

[Half Empty]

Yoop is correct.

Wow, there's a statement that is tough to wrap one's head around, regardless of the thread.

[Yoop]

Yoop is correct.

as usual

pretty hard to hold a auto mechanic responsible when he lacks the proper tools to fix your car, or the replacement parts are defective, which is a fair example of what coach Capers had to deal with.

I had some patience with Barry after Gary and the pass rush declined last year, and felt the coverage issues where more of a Jerry Gray scheme issue, now I just think Gray was a scape goat to give Barry another season, the vast acreage of open spaces in our coverage still remain, and now the same into season 3, ya would have to think Barry is on a short leash at this point, when Lafleur admits this can't go on one would hope he means what he says.

[go pak go]

Yoop is correct.

as usual

pretty hard to hold a auto mechanic responsible when he lacks the proper tools to fix your car, or the replacement parts are defective, which is a fair example of what coach Capers had to deal with.

The problem with this theory is we as fans honestly don't know if it's the mechanic, tools, or parts. We just say what we want to say.

My position is our defensive philosophy as an organization is incredibly messed up. It goes beyond players and coaches.

It's not a Barry thing. A Pettine thing. A Capers thing. A MLF thing. A MM thing. A Sherman thing, a Bob Sanders thing

Because in the 25 years I have followed the Packers closely, we have had a legit top 10 defense like 6 maybe 7 times.

Which tells me we as an organization simply has a culture that is incapable of putting together strong defenses.

And it's not due to lack of investment

[Yoop]

The problem with this theory is we as fans honestly don't know if it's the mechanic, tools, or parts. We just say what we want to say.

this is your answer to almost everything, and that you alone have all the answers.

during Capers tenure we have lost complete positional starters for long swaths of the season at CB, safety, ILB and DL, we went years with sub standard safety ability and with only one starting caliber ILB, so of course Capers problems where lack of personal, only a GM apologist like you or a blind person could claim what you just did.

Ted missed on practically every DL, ILB or safety he drafted from 2011 till, yet to you it wasn't a talent issue, if Capers had the talent this defense has today he would produce that 2009 and 10 defense again, speak for yourself, I actually do know wtf I'am talking about, keep reading a book

[Labrev]

The talent is good, and we don't lack guys who are tough. Gary, Jaw, Quay, Wyatt, Ford, Sul are pretty aggro.

Mike Wahle said there are guys on our D that he would go to war with. He also said that the D we are calling is one of the most passive, soft, and vanilla he has ever seen.

We are not playing an attacking defense, so of course our players are not attacking. They have internalized the system we are running.

It's 100% the DCoord. Evero has less talent, less coherent organizational philosophy, and he makes it work. A good DC would make us a Top 10 D overnight.

[go pak go]

The talent is good, and we don't lack guys who are tough. Gary, Jaw, Quay, Wyatt, Ford, Sul are pretty aggro.

Mike Wahle said there are guys on our D that he would go to war with. He also said that the D we are calling is one of the most passive, soft, and vanilla he has ever seen.

We are not playing an attacking defense, so of course our players are not attacking. They have internalized the system we are running.

It's 100% the DCoord. Evero has less talent, less coherent organizational philosophy, and he makes it work. A good DC would make us a Top 10 D overnight.

Agreed. I head Whale say that as well. Good post.

Also. What am I supposed to think about Slaton? I want to like him, but is he an asset or liability in our run defense?

[Yoop]

The talent is good, and we don't lack guys who are tough. Gary, Jaw, Quay, Wyatt, Ford, Sul are pretty aggro.

Mike Wahle said there are guys on our D that he would go to war with. He also said that the D we are calling is one of the most passive, soft, and vanilla he has ever seen.

We are not playing an attacking defense, so of course our players are not attacking. They have internalized the system we are running.

It's 100% the DCoord. Evero has less talent, less coherent organizational philosophy, and he makes it work. A good DC would make us a Top 10 D overnight.

max pass rush, and prevent secondary, ( Barry MO ) we've seen what happens every time the pass rush fails to get pressure, we have several very good CB, good ILB's and even safety, our weak position do well in man coverage schemes at times, yet Barry has them in prevent soft cushion coverage, and they get beat regularly

it is absolutely a DC issue, when we go man with this pass rush we can throttle any offense, we are built to be aggressive with 3 down lineman, thats why we took 3 DL high in this draft class, whats Barry do? 2 gap and passive zone.

at least when Capers did that &%$@ he had a good reason, Capers and plenty of others would have this defense attacking and top 8 in this league.

[Scott4Pack]

Pending tomorrow's slate of games, the Packers rank 21st in points allowed per game at 22.5. That is worse than last season's 15th ranking and 21.5 ppg.

So far, they have faced Justin Fields, Desmond Ritter, Derek Carr (for just over a half) and Jared Goff. Not exactly a murderer's row of QBs.

In his press conference just 5 months ago right after selecting LVN, Gute was quoted as follows: "I sat here last year and said the same thing. I think we had really good moments last year, but the consistency has to be better. We put a lot of investment into that group and there are high expectations there."

https://www.packers.com/news/expectatio ... investment

Does anyone else wonder whether if Gute had the authority to fire Barry he would have done so by now?

I cannot imagine he is happy watching "a lot of investment" as he put it playing the way it is and has been the past 2 seasons.

I’m as ignorant as anybody. But I have to think that if I’m JBarry, I’m starting each year with the thought that my scheme is the best scheme ever. Nevermind that every year my defense underperforms at the first half of the season and that I have to adjust to make things work better. When the next season comes along, I’ll think that this season is just an aberration of the league and that my way is still the better way. And then he goes back to what didn’t work the previous season until he’s forced to do something that actually works better (or less worse).

How else could this pattern repeat over and over and over…

[Yoop]

The talent is good, and we don't lack guys who are tough. Gary, Jaw, Quay, Wyatt, Ford, Sul are pretty aggro.

Mike Wahle said there are guys on our D that he would go to war with. He also said that the D we are calling is one of the most passive, soft, and vanilla he has ever seen.

We are not playing an attacking defense, so of course our players are not attacking. They have internalized the system we are running.

It's 100% the DCoord. Evero has less talent, less coherent organizational philosophy, and he makes it work. A good DC would make us a Top 10 D overnight.

Agreed. I head Whale say that as well. Good post.

Also. What am I supposed to think about Slaton? I want to like him, but is he an asset or liability in our run defense?

If you agree with Labrev, why did you say it isn't a DC problem?

[go pak go]

The talent is good, and we don't lack guys who are tough. Gary, Jaw, Quay, Wyatt, Ford, Sul are pretty aggro.

Mike Wahle said there are guys on our D that he would go to war with. He also said that the D we are calling is one of the most passive, soft, and vanilla he has ever seen.

We are not playing an attacking defense, so of course our players are not attacking. They have internalized the system we are running.

It's 100% the DCoord. Evero has less talent, less coherent organizational philosophy, and he makes it work. A good DC would make us a Top 10 D overnight.

Agreed. I head Whale say that as well. Good post.

Also. What am I supposed to think about Slaton? I want to like him, but is he an asset or liability in our run defense?

If you agree with Labrev, why did you say it isn't a DC problem?

The DC is part of the problem. But history and previous results for the last 25 years is reflecting we are dealing with a deeper and more significant issue than simply our defensive coordinator.