Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023

[go pak go]

I said basically the same thing, but whats the use, this room defends not getting Rodgers better talent, so I deleted my post, that throw to MVS was 60 yrds air, spot on, thats what a strong arm looks like.

Turns out when you have a QB making that kind of money it's exponentially harder to surround him with high end skill position players?

This is BS. Its completely possible to surround a QB with talent even with a top of market deal. We literally did it with Rodgers when he was throwing to Nelson, Cobb, and Adams. We invested in the position. Peyton Manning routinely had the WR invested in even when he went to the Broncos. Right now Lamar Jackson on average is making $52M a year and they just brought in OBJ and drafted Zay Flowers on top of having Mark Andrews and spent a first a few years ago on WR as well. Joe Burrow is the highest paid QB in the league and has Chase, Higgins, and Boyd with Joe Mixon at RB. Justin Herbert is the second highest paid QB with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekler, and went and spent a 1st on Johnston. Russell Wilson is 5th on the pay scale and has Courtland Sutton, Jerry Jeudy, and Tim Patrick. Josh Allen is 9th on the pay scale and he already had Diggs, Gabe Davis, Dawson Knox and they drafted Kincaid in the first. Dak Prescott is 11th and with Ceedee Lamb and Michael Gallup and they bring in Bradin Cooks.

This is debunked.

All these QB receivers combos you talked about all have something in common.

0 SB rings.

[lupedafiasco]

Turns out when you have a QB making that kind of money it's exponentially harder to surround him with high end skill position players?

This is BS. Its completely possible to surround a QB with talent even with a top of market deal. We literally did it with Rodgers when he was throwing to Nelson, Cobb, and Adams. We invested in the position. Peyton Manning routinely had the WR invested in even when he went to the Broncos. Right now Lamar Jackson on average is making $52M a year and they just brought in OBJ and drafted Zay Flowers on top of having Mark Andrews and spent a first a few years ago on WR as well. Joe Burrow is the highest paid QB in the league and has Chase, Higgins, and Boyd with Joe Mixon at RB. Justin Herbert is the second highest paid QB with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekler, and went and spent a 1st on Johnston. Russell Wilson is 5th on the pay scale and has Courtland Sutton, Jerry Jeudy, and Tim Patrick. Josh Allen is 9th on the pay scale and he already had Diggs, Gabe Davis, Dawson Knox and they drafted Kincaid in the first. Dak Prescott is 11th and with Ceedee Lamb and Michael Gallup and they bring in Bradin Cooks.

This is debunked.

All these QB receivers combos you talked about all have something in common.

0 SB rings.

How about Antonio Brown, Odell Beckham Jr, and Kadarius Toney? All brought in to supplement strong receiving cores to put their teams over the top with established and paid QBs.

[Yoop]

not saying ya need Kelce and a Hill, the point is having two K type receivers is better then just one, lots better.

Is this what you’ve been arguing all this time? Is this the point of all this back-and-forth??

Who on this planet wouldn’t want two 1k receivers? Like, no &%$@. It’s easier said than done, though. Historically, I bet it’s only been done a handful of times. Regardless, though, who in their right mind wouldn’t want this? Who are you arguing against on this point?

most in this forum, where've you been the last 5 years? the consensus opinion in this forum is that What Rodgers had the last 5 years has been good enough, and it wasn't.

and there are other teams that get plus 2K from just two receivers, we had Adams, and typically a couple others with about 5 to 600 yrds. that any average DB can cover.

[Yoop]

This is BS. Its completely possible to surround a QB with talent even with a top of market deal. We literally did it with Rodgers when he was throwing to Nelson, Cobb, and Adams. We invested in the position. Peyton Manning routinely had the WR invested in even when he went to the Broncos. Right now Lamar Jackson on average is making $52M a year and they just brought in OBJ and drafted Zay Flowers on top of having Mark Andrews and spent a first a few years ago on WR as well. Joe Burrow is the highest paid QB in the league and has Chase, Higgins, and Boyd with Joe Mixon at RB. Justin Herbert is the second highest paid QB with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekler, and went and spent a 1st on Johnston. Russell Wilson is 5th on the pay scale and has Courtland Sutton, Jerry Jeudy, and Tim Patrick. Josh Allen is 9th on the pay scale and he already had Diggs, Gabe Davis, Dawson Knox and they drafted Kincaid in the first. Dak Prescott is 11th and with Ceedee Lamb and Michael Gallup and they bring in Bradin Cooks.

This is debunked.

All these QB receivers combos you talked about all have something in common.

0 SB rings.

How about Antonio Brown, Odell Beckham Jr, and Kadarius Toney? All brought in to supplement strong receiving cores to put their teams over the top with established and paid QBs.

it's impossible to have a reasonable conversation with someone that points out that unless ya win the owl theres no use adding those players, it's such cart before the horse thinking

I guess it was useless then for thompson to draft GJ, Nelson, Cobb and Adams, Jones since we only won 1 SB with them

or how Guty just loaded up at the position in the last 2 drafts, skill position players is what matters, and our GM's quit supplying them for a 8 years span.

[Labrev]

In my opinion very few QBs in the history of the league can say they played with worse talent than what Rodgers had last year.

Tell me you don't watch other teams play without telling me you don't watch others teams play.

Tell me who has had a worse supporting cast than last years group of receivers and TEs.

Like at least five teams every year. Without doing an intensive search, Carolina definitely would be a much worse situation.

Last year CHI. If Lazard, Cobb, et. al. are such bad players, what would that say about EQ, who couldn't see the field ahead of them? Last year he was a starter for CHI, not because he went onto be a good player but because he really was the best they could do. Amazingly, he's still listed as a starter for them according to the Ourlads.

[Labrev]

It's not even about WR per-se. If you have an elite QB contract on your books, it is going to be followed with an exodus of talent somewhere on the roster. If not WR, then OL, or defense. Something has got to give. Cap is a real thing, no matter how much some want to pretend it isn't.

KC, with one of the top GMs in the league, sacrificed some WRs to make it work. People here made that out to be a thing only GB does and some grievous sin, or is acting like what KC did was somehow different from what we did. Actually, it is not at all unheard of or even uncommon, and it isn't meaningfully different at all.

Does a team HAVE to sacrifice receivers to make it work? No, but they definitely need to sacrifice players somewhere, and at the end of the day, they do so with the hope that the QB's elite play will make up for the loss, not some deliberate conspiracy to deprive the QB of talent and waste his prime.

And yes, you can also for a short time just ignore the cap and run up the credit card in an attempt to have good talent all around the roster, but that is only viable for 1-2 seasons, 3 at most, and then the exodus is even more severe.

It most certainly cannot be used as a strategy to ensure that your QB does not have a single season where he is forced to play with some parts of the roster being abysmal.

[Yoop]

t's not even about WR per-se. If you have an elite QB contract on your books, it is going to be followed with an exodus of talent somewhere on the roster. If not WR, then OL, or defense. Something has got to give. Cap is a real thing, no matter how much some want to pretend it isn't.

come on Labrev, the only receiver we took in that 8 year span between Adams and Watson that made any significant contribution was MVS, obviously the more you pay one player leaves less for others, thats why ya draft and develop, Amari was a bust, and so where 2/3rds of the stooges, as well as all the others like Allison, Kumerow, just because Rodgers may have liked them doesn't make them good.

you keep bouncing from one point to another to defend 8 years of basically bust, MVS has burn speed and not much else, he's basically just a player a deep safety has to keep a eye on, my hope is that Watson doesn't become the same or thats another WR miss.

all this stuff about expensive QB's robbing teams of WR talent is debunked when ya look at teams that add WR's every year hoping to add better production.

and KC still had Shuster to team with Kelce, that's 2 receivers that are harder to defend then any combo we've had since 2014

and who did we lose because of Rodgers contract? you can't even mention Adams, your clutching at straws here, heres the reality, we spent almost all resources on defense, versus drafting offensive skill position talent, Dillon, Dequara, Myers on offense.

we'll just have to agree to disagree, neither of us will ever change our minds.

[Labrev]

you keep bouncing from one point to another to defend 8 years of basically bust, MVS has burn speed and not much else, he's basically just a player a deep safety has to keep a eye on, my hope is that Watson doesn't become the same or thats another WR miss.

Actually, my original point when I responded to you was that this is what life with an elite QB contract is like, and I said it leads to roster losses, among which could be WRs but I said it could also be other areas instead.

True, I did afterwards distracted by your usual axe-grinding routine over "muh reeSEEEE`bers" and lose sight of my original point. But my original point stands. You pony up for an elite QB, you are going to lose lots of players somewhere on the team.

Sure, maybe a GM can do what you want and keep an elite WR group intact, but they will have to make the sacrifice elsewhere.

[Acrobat]

This is BS. Its completely possible to surround a QB with talent even with a top of market deal. We literally did it with Rodgers when he was throwing to Nelson, Cobb, and Adams. We invested in the position. Peyton Manning routinely had the WR invested in even when he went to the Broncos. Right now Lamar Jackson on average is making $52M a year and they just brought in OBJ and drafted Zay Flowers on top of having Mark Andrews and spent a first a few years ago on WR as well. Joe Burrow is the highest paid QB in the league and has Chase, Higgins, and Boyd with Joe Mixon at RB. Justin Herbert is the second highest paid QB with Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Austin Ekler, and went and spent a 1st on Johnston. Russell Wilson is 5th on the pay scale and has Courtland Sutton, Jerry Jeudy, and Tim Patrick. Josh Allen is 9th on the pay scale and he already had Diggs, Gabe Davis, Dawson Knox and they drafted Kincaid in the first. Dak Prescott is 11th and with Ceedee Lamb and Michael Gallup and they bring in Bradin Cooks.

This is debunked.

All these QB receivers combos you talked about all have something in common.

0 SB rings.

How about Antonio Brown, Odell Beckham Jr, and Kadarius Toney? All brought in to supplement strong receiving cores to put their teams over the top with established and paid QBs.

In hindsight, yes, I wish we had added Odell in 2021. If I remember correctly though, I think he preferred LA over GB. If that's the case, not much you can do there.

[Labrev]

It's like that time you told me that all you need to be a championship team is a good QB, good WRs, good OL, and good defense. Okay, so basically everything needs to be good. Well... DUH, that's what every team is trying to do.

The point is there is more than one way to skin the cat, not just the narrow model you adhere to. And, cap is a real thing, as much as you refuse to accept that. GMs do not similarly ignore it. At most, they kick the can down on it for a few years while making a push, then the bill comes due and they have to blow up the roster very shortly after.

What's silly to me about this whole conversation is that if a GM actually tried to do what you want, you would just blame the GM for neglecting other parts of the roster, failing to make the connection between those issues and your team-building philosophy.

Come to think of it, those Raider teams in Al Davis's twilight years are a pretty good approximation of what that model would look like.

[Yoop]

you keep bouncing from one point to another to defend 8 years of basically bust, MVS has burn speed and not much else, he's basically just a player a deep safety has to keep a eye on, my hope is that Watson doesn't become the same or thats another WR miss.

Actually, my original point when I responded to you was that this is what life with an elite QB contract is like, and I said it leads to roster losses, among which could be WRs but I said it could also be other areas instead.

True, I did afterwards distracted by your usual axe-grinding routine over "muh reeSEEEE`bers" and lose sight of my original point. But my original point stands. You pony up for an elite QB, you are going to lose lots of players somewhere on the team.

Sure, maybe a GM can do what you want and keep an elite WR group intact, but they will have to make the sacrifice elsewhere.

I went looking for a comment Ron Wolf said about the time he brought in Jackson and Rison, may have been after the SB in which he said if he could do anything different he would have brought in better receivers to go with Driver, after his best drafted receiver did the hold out in what 94???? and was traded, there are so many articles about Wolf, I had a good one to share, but closed it out accidently, sorry.

[lupedafiasco]

All these QB receivers combos you talked about all have something in common.

0 SB rings.

How about Antonio Brown, Odell Beckham Jr, and Kadarius Toney? All brought in to supplement strong receiving cores to put their teams over the top with established and paid QBs.

In hindsight, yes, I wish we had added Odell in 2021. If I remember correctly though, I think he preferred LA over GB. If that's the case, not much you can do there.

He definitely preferred LA but we made a &%$@ offer to him to come here and LA offered more. And this is why I always push back on anyone who said they went all in or even a little in. They gave the illusion of going all in by pushing out money on bad contracts.

"The Packers were asked to increase their offer on multiple occasions, according to sources. But when Green Bay declined, Beckham chose the Rams. Some sources thought they were his preferred destination all along."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/327 ... ources-say

[lupedafiasco]

Tell me you don't watch other teams play without telling me you don't watch others teams play.

Tell me who has had a worse supporting cast than last years group of receivers and TEs.

Like at least five teams every year. Without doing an intensive search, Carolina definitely would be a much worse situation.

Last year CHI. If Lazard, Cobb, et. al. are such bad players, what would that say about EQ, who couldn't see the field ahead of them? Last year he was a starter for CHI, not because he went onto be a good player but because he really was the best they could do. Amazingly, he's still listed as a starter for them according to the Ourlads.

I would have taken the Bears WR/TE group over what we had last year.

We came in with Sammy Watkins who is out of the league, Lazard and Cobb who are both with the Jets and doing nothing with 55 and 45 PFF grades, a bunch of rookie receivers, and Mercedes Lewis who runs like he has poop in his pants and a chafed ass.

[Pckfn23]

All these QB receivers combos you talked about all have something in common.

0 SB rings.

How about Antonio Brown, Odell Beckham Jr, and Kadarius Toney? All brought in to supplement strong receiving cores to put their teams over the top with established and paid QBs.

In hindsight, yes, I wish we had added Odell in 2021. If I remember correctly though, I think he preferred LA over GB. If that's the case, not much you can do there.

Just FYI, we could not have offered more at the time and stayed under the cap.

[Acrobat]

Tell me who has had a worse supporting cast than last years group of receivers and TEs.

Like at least five teams every year. Without doing an intensive search, Carolina definitely would be a much worse situation.

Last year CHI. If Lazard, Cobb, et. al. are such bad players, what would that say about EQ, who couldn't see the field ahead of them? Last year he was a starter for CHI, not because he went onto be a good player but because he really was the best they could do. Amazingly, he's still listed as a starter for them according to the Ourlads.

I would have taken the Bears WR/TE group over what we had last year.

We came in with Sammy Watkins who is out of the league, Lazard and Cobb who are both with the Jets and doing nothing with 55 and 45 PFF grades, a bunch of rookie receivers, and Mercedes Lewis who runs like he has poop in his pants and a chafed ass.

If I remember correctly, we had some cap restrictions too that made it complicated.

I think the other component was that there really wasn't a guarantee that Odell would be any shell of what he was. There was a lot of risk there. Much different than an Andre Rison type signing.

The other thing, Odell would not have fixed our Special Teams, and I'm not really even sure he would have made a difference in that 49ers loss. Rodgers, Bakh being injured, and our Special Teams were the biggest factors in that loss. I still to this day believe 100% that if we had survived that game, we would have beaten the Rams (with them having Odell) as well as the Bengals.

If anything, I think 2021 was a bigger opportunity wasted than 2020 because Tampa got hot at the right time. The path was wide open in 2021 and our team was good enough to win it all, but yeah, still would have been nice to have Odell.

[Yoop]

It's like that time you told me that all you need to be a championship team is a good QB, good WRs, good OL, and good defense. Okay, so basically everything needs to be good. Well... DUH, that's what every team is trying to do.

The point is there is more than one way to skin the cat, not just the narrow model you adhere to. And, cap is a real thing, as much as you refuse to accept that. GMs do not similarly ignore it. At most, they kick the can down on it for a few years while making a push, then the bill comes due and they have to blow up the roster very shortly after.

What's silly to me about this whole conversation is that if a GM actually tried to do what you want, you would just blame the GM for neglecting other parts of the roster, failing to make the connection between those issues and your team-building philosophy.

Come to think of it, those Raider teams in Al Davis's twilight years are a pretty good approximation of what that model would look like.

the best GM we ever had came from the AL Davis school of team building, Jack Vainisi was great, no doubting that, but this league became a lot more complicated towards finding talent after the merger, Ron Wolf was the architect that sprouted 5 more great GM's and brought in gobs of talent and possibly 5 HOFamers, again he said if he could do anything different, he would have brought in more receiver talent for Favre.

not exactly how I put that, imo ya just need a better defense then we've had the last decade, better special teams then bottom of the league, and fair running game and OL, and the most potent passing attack you can muster, I'll put that combo against any team in the league, and any season in the live ball era
your also claiming I'd complain to just complain, which is also a half truth, my main complaints for the last 8 years has been not having as potent a offense as I think we could/should have.

who wouldn't complain about this defense, bunch of Indians, no chief

[Yoop]

you guys act as though other teams that sign studs don't have the same kind of cap issues, when all of you know they do, yet there offers don't insult prospects enough so they refuse to to even negotiate, as I believe several have with us.

[Yoop]

The other thing, Odell would not have fixed our Special Teams, and I'm not really even sure he would have made a difference in that 49ers loss. Rodgers, Bakh being injured, and our Special Teams were the biggest factors in that loss. I still to this day believe 100% that if we had survived that game, we would have beaten the Rams (with them having Odell) as well as the Bengals.

heres the thing Acrobat, one player can change everything, simply because there production allows a different scenario for up coming plays, so that ST's blunder may have not happened, the more skill position talent, the more options a game planner has with his play designs., the more a offense can stay on the field the less stress and tiring for defense, so imo, just one player can turn the whole season around.

imo thats the main reason for having more versus just Adams and a bunch of lesser talent

[Acrobat]

The other thing, Odell would not have fixed our Special Teams, and I'm not really even sure he would have made a difference in that 49ers loss. Rodgers, Bakh being injured, and our Special Teams were the biggest factors in that loss. I still to this day believe 100% that if we had survived that game, we would have beaten the Rams (with them having Odell) as well as the Bengals.

heres the thing Acrobat, one player can change everything, simply because there production allows a different scenario for up coming plays, so that ST's blunder may have not happened, the more skill position talent, the more options a game planner has with his play designs., the more a offense can stay on the field the less stress and tiring for defense, so imo, just one player can turn the whole season around.

imo thats the main reason for having more versus just Adams and a bunch of lesser talent

I do agree with you, and wish we had Odell. I just don't know that his impact would have changed how that 49ers game turned out. We'll never know for sure.

[Yoop]

The other thing, Odell would not have fixed our Special Teams, and I'm not really even sure he would have made a difference in that 49ers loss. Rodgers, Bakh being injured, and our Special Teams were the biggest factors in that loss. I still to this day believe 100% that if we had survived that game, we would have beaten the Rams (with them having Odell) as well as the Bengals.

heres the thing Acrobat, one player can change everything, simply because there production allows a different scenario for up coming plays, so that ST's blunder may have not happened, the more skill position talent, the more options a game planner has with his play designs., the more a offense can stay on the field the less stress and tiring for defense, so imo, just one player can turn the whole season around.

imo thats the main reason for having more versus just Adams and a bunch of lesser talent

I do agree with you, and wish we had Odell. I just don't know that his impact would have changed how that 49ers game turned out. We'll never know for sure.

maybe your right, I just wished we had made a better effort to get him.

the better the route runner, imo the easier and faster it is to build chemistry with a QB, Odel and Adam would put that group in comparison to Kelce and T. Hill, almost impossible to cover, I think our odds of victory over SF would have shot through the roof.