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Not true. These are the starting WR's and TE's each year of the NE dynasty. I would say that in almost all of those seasons they had at least 2 competent NFL starter caliber WR's/TE's. In some years, they even had all-time great level of talent.
painful to look at that compared to our receiver talent some seasons
The worst receiving corps of that dynasty were in the early 2000's. But even then I would argue that guys like Troy Brown, Terry Glenn, Deion Branch, and David Patten were good.
IMO the biggest lesson of the NE dynasty is that as an NFL team, you cannot suck in any position group. You can be good. You can even be average in some areas. But you can't suck anywhere and expect to compete for a championship.
"It's better to decide wrongly than weakly; if you're weak, you're likely to be wrong anyway."
- Bill Parcells
Not true. These are the starting WR's and TE's each year of the NE dynasty. I would say that in almost all of those seasons they had at least 2 competent NFL starter caliber WR's/TE's. In some years, they even had all-time great level of talent.
painful to look at that compared to our receiver talent some seasons
Thanks for putting in the work. Obvioulsy they had the Moss years, and Gronk was stellar but I think a lot of those guys were jags that had the GOAT throwing them the ball making them look better than they were
Not true. These are the starting WR's and TE's each year of the NE dynasty. I would say that in almost all of those seasons they had at least 2 competent NFL starter caliber WR's/TE's. In some years, they even had all-time great level of talent.
(**snip**)
Looking at this list, I still think Rodgers has had better WRs over his career. Rodgers's best WR year (2011) was better than Brady's (2007). He got to play with the best WR in the league (Adams) for longer than Brady did with Moss, and IMO we just had more guys who were good than they did.
And that's a testament to our team, not a diss on theirs.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
In fact, one of Patriot fans' biggest gripes with Belichick how poorly they have done with drafting WRs in early rounds.
Deion Branch is his only hit, and that was really long ago. Otherwise, he has pretty consistently whiffed on his early WR picks: Chad Jackson, Aaron Dobson, N'Keal Harry, just to name a few. Even draftniks have commented on how poorly NE drafts WRs (and RBs).
What helps paper over that is the trade for Moss, signing Edelman, the flyer on Edelman, and his better record with TEs.
Let's also not forget that Brady signed very team-friendly deals. He signed one megadeal, which coincided with NE's championship draught. Then he took significant hometown discounts and suddenly the rings came rolling in.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
Not true. These are the starting WR's and TE's each year of the NE dynasty. I would say that in almost all of those seasons they had at least 2 competent NFL starter caliber WR's/TE's. In some years, they even had all-time great level of talent.
painful to look at that compared to our receiver talent some seasons
Thanks for putting in the work. Obvioulsy they had the Moss years, and Gronk was stellar but I think a lot of those guys were jags that had the GOAT throwing them the ball making them look better than they were
thanks Matt, it's just harder for me these days, I use to be a tad better, but never very good at data collecting
I wont argue the Brady is better then Rodgers stuff, but Brady was never that much better, after 2014, 15 there plan was just better, imo one of the best forms of the WCO scheme, lots of mis direction, up tempo, motion, 22 sets.
Papa just outlined well the difference in receiver groups, imo we could have kept drafting receivers as Ted did early tenure and still had just as good a defense all these years, but it would have had to have more UFA or trades.
I read once that Belichick invested time and a couple guys to scout up coming UFA each season, I often wondered what we devoted to that stuff, maybe we did as well, yet Ted avoided that avenue like the plague
In fact, one of Patriot fans' biggest gripes with Belichick how poorly they have done with drafting WRs in early rounds.
Deion Branch is his only hit, and that was really long ago. Otherwise, he has pretty consistently whiffed on his early WR picks: Chad Jackson, Aaron Dobson, N'Keal Harry, just to name a few. Even draftniks have commented on how poorly NE drafts WRs (and RBs).
What helps paper over that is the trade for Moss, signing Edelman, the flyer on Edelman, and his better record with TEs.
Let's also not forget that Brady signed very team-friendly deals. He signed one megadeal, which coincided with NE's championship draught. Then he took significant hometown discounts and suddenly the rings came rolling in.
Brady also had the rare luxury of being married to someone who made more money than he did. Sure he took pay cuts but he could also afford to because he married into generational wealth.
Not true. These are the starting WR's and TE's each year of the NE dynasty. I would say that in almost all of those seasons they had at least 2 competent NFL starter caliber WR's/TE's. In some years, they even had all-time great level of talent.
(**snip**)
Looking at this list, I still think Rodgers has had better WRs over his career. Rodgers's best WR year (2011) was better than Brady's (2007). He got to play with the best WR in the league (Adams) for longer than Brady did with Moss, and IMO we just had more guys who were good than they did.
And that's a testament to our team, not a diss on theirs.
I brought that list to argue against the idea that the Patriots have had inferior WR corps most years. I didn't mean it as any sort of comment on Rodgers or his situation. But since that is the topic, I'll dive in.
I will agree with you that the 2011 Packers had a better receiving corps than the 2007 Patriots. It is still close though. But I don't think that Rodgers has had better WR corps over the span of his career. Brady had a very talented core group of receivers to work with in his twilight years with the Patriots (when he needed them most.) Contrast that to AR's last years in GB. Yes, he had Adams but to say anyone else was really a threat to a defense is seeing things through green and gold glasses. Not saying Rodgers couldn't have done more with what he had. But I think the WR/TE position does become much more important as your QB ages. And I absolutely believe that older Tom Brady had better receiving crews to work with than older Aaron Rodgers.
"It's better to decide wrongly than weakly; if you're weak, you're likely to be wrong anyway."
- Bill Parcells
In fact, one of Patriot fans' biggest gripes with Belichick how poorly they have done with drafting WRs in early rounds.
Deion Branch is his only hit, and that was really long ago. Otherwise, he has pretty consistently whiffed on his early WR picks: Chad Jackson, Aaron Dobson, N'Keal Harry, just to name a few. Even draftniks have commented on how poorly NE drafts WRs (and RBs).
What helps paper over that is the trade for Moss, signing Edelman, the flyer on Edelman, and his better record with TEs.
Let's also not forget that Brady signed very team-friendly deals. He signed one megadeal, which coincided with NE's championship draught. Then he took significant hometown discounts and suddenly the rings came rolling in.
Brady also had the rare luxury of being married to someone who made more money than he did. Sure he took pay cuts but he could also afford to because he married into generational wealth.
who's to say that Rodgers wouldn't if ya dangled a Gronk or some other expensive FA, just more excuses for not bringing in better receiver talent in years mentioned.
just to add another nail in Labrevs logic, ( just kidding of course
we should also look at Mike McCarthy's pass schemes, iso verticals,, unless you have a run game to keep a defense honest, even the best QB/WR combo's can be defeated as we saw in 2011, pin the ears back rushing the QB with deep coverage shells, nothing else required, rush 5, drop 6, rush 6 drop 5, that and depleted defense cost us those two losses that year, Ted went heavy defense in the next years draft.
Contrast that to AR's last years in GB. Yes, he had Adams but to say anyone else was really a threat to a defense is seeing things through green and gold glasses.
We had Aaron Jones. Belichick's teams ran the ball a lot but consistently lacked any star RB of Jones's caliber.
And MVS was definitely a threat if nothing else. Was he some great all-around receiver? No, but D-Coords unquestionably played us differently when he was on the field, because you had to respect his ability to get behind a defense.
We can gripe on the drops all we want, but the fact is, his ability to flip the field in a single play was a real asset, whether it was actually making the play or just drawing an extra level of attention. If there were any doubt of that, look at what he did for KC last year in the AFCCG.
“Most other nations don't allow a terrorist to be their leader.”
“... Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists.”—Magneto
Contrast that to AR's last years in GB. Yes, he had Adams but to say anyone else was really a threat to a defense is seeing things through green and gold glasses.
We had Aaron Jones. Belichick's teams ran the ball a lot but consistently lacked any star RB of Jones's caliber.
And MVS was definitely a threat if nothing else. Was he some great all-around receiver? No, but D-Coords unquestionably played us differently when he was on the field, because you had to respect his ability to get behind a defense.
We can gripe on the drops all we want, but the fact is, his ability to flip the field in a single play was a real asset, whether it was actually making the play or just drawing an extra level of attention. If there were any doubt of that, look at what he did for KC last year in the AFCCG.
The conversation was about receiving corps but if you want to talk running backs then you'd be remiss if you didn't mention that the late 2010's Patriots were working with Sony Michel/Dion Lewis/LaGarrette Blount(who scored 18 TD's in 2016) in addition to a phenomenal 3rd down back in James White.
As for MVS, why wouldn't we gripe about his drops? Catching the ball is like, thee most important part of his job and he was lousy at it. Saw him drop an easy TD again just Monday night. MVS was garb with the Packers.
And just to be clear, I am not one of these people arguing that receivers are the end-all be-all. Like I mentioned in a previous post, not sucking at any position group is the end all be all.
Honestly, the "Brady had better receivers" is not the hill that I would die on. But "Brady had less rosters with 1 or more sucky position groups" is.
"It's better to decide wrongly than weakly; if you're weak, you're likely to be wrong anyway."
- Bill Parcells
Contrast that to AR's last years in GB. Yes, he had Adams but to say anyone else was really a threat to a defense is seeing things through green and gold glasses.
We had Aaron Jones. Belichick's teams ran the ball a lot but consistently lacked any star RB of Jones's caliber.
And MVS was definitely a threat if nothing else. Was he some great all-around receiver? No, but D-Coords unquestionably played us differently when he was on the field, because you had to respect his ability to get behind a defense.
We can gripe on the drops all we want, but the fact is, his ability to flip the field in a single play was a real asset, whether it was actually making the play or just drawing an extra level of attention. If there were any doubt of that, look at what he did for KC last year in the AFCCG.
The conversation was about receiving corps but if you want to talk running backs then you'd be remiss if you didn't mention that the late 2010's Patriots were working with Sony Michel/Dion Lewis/LaGarrette Blount(who scored 18 TD's in 2016) in addition to a phenomenal 3rd down back in James White.
As for MVS, why wouldn't we gripe about his drops? Catching the ball is like, thee most important part of his job and he was lousy at it. Saw him drop an easy TD again just Monday night. MVS was garb with the Packers.
And just to be clear, I am not one of these people arguing that receivers are the end-all be-all. Like I mentioned in a previous post, not sucking at any position group is the end all be all.
Honestly, the "Brady had better receivers" is not the hill that I would die on. But "Brady had less rosters with 1 or more sucky position groups" is.
I'd argue that, other than TE, the Pack with Rodgers had pretty comparable if not superior offensive talent to the Patriots during New England's glory years.
I'd also argue that the Pack with Rodgers had inferior Defensive and Special Teams units in terms of coaching, personnel, and performance in comparison to the Patriots during New England's glory years.
And frankly, I don't think the Green Bay Defense or Special Teams were even close (other than a couple of outlier years for the defense like 2009, 2010, and the second half of 2014).
Couple thoughts
IMO When Randy Moss played for the Patiots he was the best player (for sure the most dangerous) at his position at that time, and arguably in the entire history of the NFL.
2. Rob Gronkowski during his Prime with the Patriots was probably the best receiving TE in the entire NFL. Much like Travis Kelce has been the last few years. Surprise Surprise they both have hardware. And their QBs are/were Mahomes and Tom Brady.
3. Tom Brady thrived throwing to exceptional slot recievers like Edelman and Wes Welker and the other guy I forget. Didn"t Welker have a couple 100 plus reception years?
Belichick would never have allowed a team killer like MVS to remain on the team. I am kind of serious about that though.
Anyway the chemistry they all had was second to none. Is that more a tribute to Tom Brady or some of the great pieces around him or both equally?
The ball was out before the hit. I don't have the rule book memorized but I'd think it's a free ball at that point with the penalty assessed after the completion of the play. I could definitely be wrong about that but intuitively it seems to be how it should play out.
Fumble, hit, recovery. The ball was recovered after the penalty so it is a live ball foul, and until the recovery, the ball belongs to the Vikings. Therefore, had they thrown a flag, the Vikings would have retained possession.
