2023 Packers Defense Expectations?

[BF004]

If Barry was openly disobeying the direction Lafleur has instructed him to take the defense…he would be fired

Lafleur has either given Barry NO leadership or direction on the defense (because Lafleur is a HC that only knows one phase of the game)

Or Barry is calling a style that Lafleur wants him to run.

This is why Lafleur hasn’t canned the guy. If Barry was defiant, he’d be gone.

Blame lacoach

I feel like we've gone over all of this. I think nearly everyone does? At least most. This is LaFleur preferred scheme of defense (maybe not direct play calling). Joe Barry was his hire and he still has kept him to the astonishment of every fan (other than lupe) for 3 years.

So yes, this is LaFleur's defense.

Yet, LaFleur is still a young developing coach and he is a lock to be back next year. All anyone can hope for this offseason is a new DC. So by default, we all want the DC gone and we want a new one and hope LaFleur can continue the progression with Love and find a better style of defense for the team.

Lafleur is young in age. He is not young in experience. He’s top 10 longest tenured head coach in the league.

And I’m afraid you missed my point. I’m not talking off-season change, I’m talking mid year firing. But My point is that if Barry is calling the games in a way that pleases Lafleur, how could or why would Lafleur fire him? He’s doing what he’s been asked to do.

There is certainly evidence Matt isn’t content with some of the play calling. Source: Matt’s mouth.

He clearly isn’t happy with the communication, which I would imagine is a lot to do with the coaching staff preparing these guys and getting them ready. Not sure how much or little Matt is involved there.

It is ultimately all a failure on Matt’s shoulders. But it’s also not like he’s calling plays on D and Barry is just a man in the middle.

[Yoop]

A lot of us like Evero, he is more aggressive, saw this and thought I'd share.

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/bar ... ine-sunday

[Drj820]

I feel like we've gone over all of this. I think nearly everyone does? At least most. This is LaFleur preferred scheme of defense (maybe not direct play calling). Joe Barry was his hire and he still has kept him to the astonishment of every fan (other than lupe) for 3 years.

So yes, this is LaFleur's defense.

Yet, LaFleur is still a young developing coach and he is a lock to be back next year. All anyone can hope for this offseason is a new DC. So by default, we all want the DC gone and we want a new one and hope LaFleur can continue the progression with Love and find a better style of defense for the team.

Lafleur is young in age. He is not young in experience. He’s top 10 longest tenured head coach in the league.

And I’m afraid you missed my point. I’m not talking off-season change, I’m talking mid year firing. But My point is that if Barry is calling the games in a way that pleases Lafleur, how could or why would Lafleur fire him? He’s doing what he’s been asked to do.

There is certainly evidence Matt isn’t content with some of the play calling. Source: Matt’s mouth.

He clearly isn’t happy with the communication, which I would imagine is a lot to do with the coaching staff preparing these guys and getting them ready. Not sure how much or little Matt is involved there.

It is ultimately all a failure on Matt’s shoulders. But it’s also not like he’s calling plays on D and Barry is just a man in the middle.

I think not letting Barry pick his own defensive staff has direct correlation to communication issues.

[packman114]

Have to hope Evero would make the lateral move to us. Can't even offer him Asst. HC unless Bisaccia moves on.

[Yoop]

Douglas called for accountability and pointed a finger at Lafleur, most including me though he was referring to the poor play of the offense, specially after his response when he left of thanking the team (Guty) for bringing him here, where he said he's learned a lot ( he and Alex where said to be tight as brothers), now I think it had to do with Lafleur deciding to keep Barry this season, and that got him sent to Buffalo, Alex response was, I wont keep quiet any more, and he's rarely played ever since.

Savage is on IR, so basically the only guys playing in the secondary, are newbies and don't dare complain about anything.

I'd say some players gave up on Barry and any accountability from Lafleur months ago.

No, he's ticked off because he was wearing the green dot in the second half after they took it away from Quay who was mucking it up... a different guy same results. The "communication " issues are very much those two because it's their job to relay the sideline calls to the players.

No matter what whining about it on social media shows a lack of leadership and maturity. My complaint in terms of ML and Gute is his butt should have hit the locker room door this afternoon for it. Set the damn standard, They all played like garbage, the head coach called them and his staff out for being garbage( That's his job) if that gets you all hot and bothered then .....see ya!

are you saying Douglas was mic'd up? or are you referring to Douglas recent comments? I'am thinking the later, if so I didn't notice the swapping of green dot between he and Walker, everything concerning how Barry operates this defense is confusing

[Yoop]

Lafleur is young in age. He is not young in experience. He’s top 10 longest tenured head coach in the league.

And I’m afraid you missed my point. I’m not talking off-season change, I’m talking mid year firing. But My point is that if Barry is calling the games in a way that pleases Lafleur, how could or why would Lafleur fire him? He’s doing what he’s been asked to do.

There is certainly evidence Matt isn’t content with some of the play calling. Source: Matt’s mouth.

He clearly isn’t happy with the communication, which I would imagine is a lot to do with the coaching staff preparing these guys and getting them ready. Not sure how much or little Matt is involved there.

It is ultimately all a failure on Matt’s shoulders. But it’s also not like he’s calling plays on D and Barry is just a man in the middle.

I think not letting Barry pick his own defensive staff has direct correlation to communication issues.

I think Barry's defense was better with AR as the QB, but I admit it may have just seemed that way

[Labrev]

https://www.golongtd.com/p/mike-daniels ... chology-of

Mike Daniels interview with Tyler Dunne

I finally got around to listening to this one, thought it was really enlightening. Lots of interesting tidbits.

Main takeaway: the players then and now were/are not soft, the org just do not emphasize or encourage physicality like other teams do.

Other tidbits.....

The other teams he played for, DET and CIN, and even Iowa and his HS football team had much more tough-minded cultures. Mike McCarthy did like Daniels's attitude and did try to get that through to people, he just wasn't good at it (it's hard to imagine MLF being any better at instilling this mindset or really wanting to).

As a result, players with toughness became soft (HHCD went from laying the wood on Gronk and in one practice Linsley(!) in his first couple of years, to telling Mike to stop chirping with another player).

He says also that teams have certain "expectations" of players; it puts pressure on them to perform. Penn State LBers rise up to the challenge because they know they need to be great. Ditto WI/Iowa for OL. Ravens/Pittsburgh: defenses. Packers, QB play, says that's why Love is coming along well. I liked this point because I have always felt that that's a real thing.

Guys coming from other teams like SanFran said they were confident they could beat us because they saw themselves as tougher than us.

So it's a systemic/endemic issue with GB.

He also says that GB had too much of an "Aaron mentality" where the team just looked to Rodgers to win, much apart from how Cincy keeps fighting without Burrow under center, or how New England was not all about TB12 but they hammer home the mentality to "do your job" to every player. Says Packers are only now finally starting to make the adjustment to not having Rodgers.

[Yoop]

https://www.golongtd.com/p/mike-daniels ... chology-of

Mike Daniels interview with Tyler Dunne

I finally got around to listening to this one, thought it was really enlightening. Lots of interesting tidbits.

Main takeaway: the players then and now were/are not soft, the org just do not emphasize or encourage physicality like other teams do.

Other tidbits.....

The other teams he played for, DET and CIN, and even Iowa and his HS football team had much more tough-minded cultures. Mike McCarthy did like Daniels's attitude and did try to get that through to people, he just wasn't good at it (it's hard to imagine MLF being any better at instilling this mindset or really wanting to).

As a result, players with toughness became soft (HHCD went from laying the wood on Gronk and in one practice Linsley(!) in his first couple of years, to telling Mike to stop chirping with another player).

He says also that teams have certain "expectations" of players; it puts pressure on them to perform. Penn State LBers rise up to the challenge because they know they need to be great. Ditto WI/Iowa for OL. Ravens/Pittsburgh: defenses. Packers, QB play, says that's why Love is coming along well. I liked this point because I have always felt that that's a real thing.

Guys coming from other teams like SanFran said they were confident they could beat us because they saw themselves as tougher than us.

So it's a systemic/endemic issue with GB.

well it also has to do with available talent, when Capers/Fangios schemes work best it has to do with key positional talent, Capers produced a top 2 defense when he had it, later not having it turned his defenses into prevent mode, so talent obviously makes a difference, now Barry uses the same basic design that Fangio still uses, however even with quality talent Barry uses a very timid approach, imho thats the biggest difference, it's how you implement the plan that matters.

[Labrev]

well it also has to do with available talent, when Capers/Fangios schemes work best it has to do with key positional talent, Capers produced a top 2 defense when he had it, later not having it turned his defenses into prevent mode, so talent obviously makes a difference,

Daniels argued against that in this interview. He said that Green Bay Packers had better player talent than the more physical teams he mentioned but the other teams were better at creating a culture of toughness and instilling it in their players.

One of those tougher teams was Detroit, which were never more talented than we were. They had a decent team for a few years but were never that great, just a one-and-done playoff appearance.

And he said that toughness needs to be bred even when the team is bad, because at you go down fighting, and that stuff carries over to when the team actually becomes good.

[BF004]

A lot of us like Evero, he is more aggressive, saw this and thought I'd share.

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/bar ... ine-sunday

Totally forgot Evero was in Denver last year.

Rough couple of years for him, lol.

[Drj820]

sounds like what ive always thought.

A sign of this is when we would go to the line on offense with two available plays and check into one of them based on what the defense showed or made most available to us

I always hated that. That should be reserved for extreme audibles like when you have a run play called and you see the defense has 8 in the box. Or come to the line with two pass plays and check into the one that looks most available.

I always hated letting the defense decide whether we were going to run or pass based on what they were aligned to stop.

A tough team that is committed to run the ball says "we are going to slam this rock down your throat and you will not stop it". A tough team establishes the run and mows back defenders no matter if they are lined up to stop it or not.

This passive mentality is endemic throughout the team

[Yoop]

sounds like what ive always thought.

A sign of this is when we would go to the line on offense with two available plays and check into one of them based on what the defense showed or made most available to us

I always hated that. That should be reserved for extreme audibles like when you have a run play called and you see the defense has 8 in the box. Or come to the line with two pass plays and check into the one that looks most available.

I always hated letting the defense decide whether we were going to run or pass based on what they were aligned to stop.

A tough team that is committed to run the ball says "we are going to slam this rock down your throat and you will not stop it". A tough team establishes the run and mows back defenders no matter if they are lined up to stop it or not.

This passive mentality is endemic throughout the team

Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.

how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.

your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.

this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water

[Drj820]

sounds like what ive always thought.

A sign of this is when we would go to the line on offense with two available plays and check into one of them based on what the defense showed or made most available to us

I always hated that. That should be reserved for extreme audibles like when you have a run play called and you see the defense has 8 in the box. Or come to the line with two pass plays and check into the one that looks most available.

I always hated letting the defense decide whether we were going to run or pass based on what they were aligned to stop.

A tough team that is committed to run the ball says "we are going to slam this rock down your throat and you will not stop it". A tough team establishes the run and mows back defenders no matter if they are lined up to stop it or not.

This passive mentality is endemic throughout the team

Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.

how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.

your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.

this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water

you basically just said "lafleur commits to the run when the OL feels like run blocking".

I think a tough team ALWAYS feels like run blocking and commits to it even when it is not immedietly working

They do this knowing they may have to punt and play defense in the first half, in order to injure and bruise the defense and get bigger gains in the second half

[Yoop]

well it also has to do with available talent, when Capers/Fangios schemes work best it has to do with key positional talent, Capers produced a top 2 defense when he had it, later not having it turned his defenses into prevent mode, so talent obviously makes a difference,

Daniels argued against that in this interview. He said that Green Bay Packers had better player talent than the more physical teams he mentioned but the other teams were better at creating a culture of toughness and instilling it in their players.

One of those tougher teams was Detroit, which were never more talented than we were. They had a decent team for a few years but were never that great, just a one-and-done playoff appearance.

And he said that toughness needs to be bred even when the team is bad, because at you go down fighting, and that stuff carries over to when the team actually becomes good.

Mike Daniels can say anything he wants, why not just go look at talent available the last 5 or 6 years of Capers tenure, his defense was completely void of seasonal starters at key positions every season, two years straight we lost the whole CB crew, other years pass rushers, and we went years minus safety's and ILB's, if it hadn't been for Rodgers the Packers where certainly not going to win a lot of the games we did.

the wisest words that I took from Daniels comments where that ya don't need to be a criminal to play tough, Detroit did have better defensive rosters some of those seasons, they didn't win for other reasons.

[Drj820]

my question for the defense is why has Jerry Montgomery not only kept his job since 2018 with two different coordinators, but also got PROMOTED to run game coordinator this past offseason?

Someone help remind me when the DL was mean as a whole? When they played above their talent level? When they appeared to improve?

Il give Jerry that for years he had to make due with scrubs like Lowry and the other caucasian, but now the room is loaded with talent. And kenny is way to inconsistent.

I see minimal evidence Jerry has done a good job at all..and he got a promotion??

[Yoop]

sounds like what ive always thought.

A sign of this is when we would go to the line on offense with two available plays and check into one of them based on what the defense showed or made most available to us

I always hated that. That should be reserved for extreme audibles like when you have a run play called and you see the defense has 8 in the box. Or come to the line with two pass plays and check into the one that looks most available.

I always hated letting the defense decide whether we were going to run or pass based on what they were aligned to stop.

A tough team that is committed to run the ball says "we are going to slam this rock down your throat and you will not stop it". A tough team establishes the run and mows back defenders no matter if they are lined up to stop it or not.

This passive mentality is endemic throughout the team

Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.

how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.

your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.

this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water

you basically just said "lafleur commits to the run when the OL feels like run blocking".

I think a tough team ALWAYS feels like run blocking and commits to it even when it is not immedietly working

They do this knowing they may have to punt and play defense in the first half, in order to injure and bruise the defense and get bigger gains in the second half

no I didn't say that, re read what I said

and no, OL don't commit to run blocking, there not born to be run blockers, gesus it is a learned skill, if they have those skills when they get to the nfl it's because there college team did a ton of running the ball, take a look at how college offenses operate, many rarely even run the ball, football has been a passing sport for 40 years Buddy

[go pak go]

well it also has to do with available talent, when Capers/Fangios schemes work best it has to do with key positional talent, Capers produced a top 2 defense when he had it, later not having it turned his defenses into prevent mode, so talent obviously makes a difference,

Daniels argued against that in this interview. He said that Green Bay Packers had better player talent than the more physical teams he mentioned but the other teams were better at creating a culture of toughness and instilling it in their players.

One of those tougher teams was Detroit, which were never more talented than we were. They had a decent team for a few years but were never that great, just a one-and-done playoff appearance.

And he said that toughness needs to be bred even when the team is bad, because at you go down fighting, and that stuff carries over to when the team actually becomes good.

Mike Daniels can say anything he wants, why not just go look at talent available the last 5 or 6 years of Capers tenure, his defense was completely void of seasonal starters at key positions every season, two years straight we lost the whole CB crew, other years pass rushers, and we went years minus safety's and ILB's, if it hadn't been for Rodgers the Packers where certainly not going to win a lot of the games we did.

the wisest words that I took from Daniels comments where that ya don't need to be a criminal to play tough, Detroit did have better defensive rosters some of those seasons, they didn't win for other reasons.

So when a player (a Pro Bowl level player at that) who is completely removed from the teams, has been on multiple teams so has different perspectives, knows defense and culture of the NFL more than anyone on this forum becuase he lived it, and has a better eye for defensive talent because he lived it says that the Packers had more talent on the defensive side of the ball but it was instead culture thing...you just dismiss it because

he can say anything he wants?

I am just trying to figure out what the criteria needs to be for an expert's words to be accepted as truth beyond the "that's what I already believed anyway"

[Drj820]

Lafleur commits to the run plenty when he has RB's and OL blocking that warrants that commitment.

how hard can you push run plays with the loss of Jones, a injured Dillon? how do you develop Love if all ya do is attempt to run.

your confusing tough, with inadequate, this line grades mid 20's run blocking, Dillon is not a feature RB, you saw how a hobbling Jones is so much better, but since he's been injure how many touches should he get.

this ragging on Lafleur for not firing Barry has gotten blown way out of proportion imho, sure to sav e face he probably should fire him now, but that sends a terrible message to prospects to replace him, sometimes all ya can do is tread water

you basically just said "lafleur commits to the run when the OL feels like run blocking".

I think a tough team ALWAYS feels like run blocking and commits to it even when it is not immedietly working

They do this knowing they may have to punt and play defense in the first half, in order to injure and bruise the defense and get bigger gains in the second half

no I didn't say that, re read what I said

and no, OL don't commit to run blocking, there not born to be run blockers, gesus it is a learned skill, if they have those skills when they get to the nfl it's because there college team did a ton of running the ball, take a look at how college offenses operate, many rarely even run the ball, football has been a passing sport for 40 years Buddy

Tough teams develop run blockers first. Tough teams slam the ball down your throat, then throw it over the top when you move guys into the box to stop the run. Tough teams run it even if its not working in order to stay balanced, establish their will, and bruise the other team.

defenses hate playing tough teams because they know they are gonna get popped in the mouth for 60 minutes come sunday.

[go pak go]

my question for the defense is why has Jerry Montgomery not only kept his job since 2018 with two different coordinators, but also got PROMOTED to run game coordinator this past offseason?

Someone help remind me when the DL was mean as a whole? When they played above their talent level? When they appeared to improve?

Il give Jerry that for years he had to make due with scrubs like Lowry and the other caucasian, but now the room is loaded with talent. And kenny is way to inconsistent.

I see minimal evidence Jerry has done a good job at all..and he got a promotion??

well he got a promotion before the talent came.

Now yes. You can now question if he is suited for the job because the talent is there but consistency isn't always there.

[Yoop]

you basically just said "lafleur commits to the run when the OL feels like run blocking".

I think a tough team ALWAYS feels like run blocking and commits to it even when it is not immedietly working

They do this knowing they may have to punt and play defense in the first half, in order to injure and bruise the defense and get bigger gains in the second half

no I didn't say that, re read what I said

and no, OL don't commit to run blocking, there not born to be run blockers, gesus it is a learned skill, if they have those skills when they get to the nfl it's because there college team did a ton of running the ball, take a look at how college offenses operate, many rarely even run the ball, football has been a passing sport for 40 years Buddy

Tough teams develop run blockers first. Tough teams slam the ball down your throat, then throw it over the top when you move guys into the box to stop the run. Tough teams run it even if its not working in order to stay balanced, establish their will, and bruise the other team.

defenses hate playing tough teams because they know they are gonna get popped in the mouth for 60 minutes come sunday.

only in the fantasy land you live in , again, a healthy Jones and Dillon produced over 2K the 2 seasons prior to this one, Lafluer does run the ball to start games when he has the RB's to do it and the blocking can support it.

Run blocking is harder then pass pro, very few college OL are good at both.

why do you think zone blocking was developed, it's easier then gap blocking or man o man blocking when it comes to run blocking,