Let The Firings Begin

[Drj820]

Like i said, if you can get a star at DC. Like Vrable, belichik, or even Pete Carrol, or Selah....then lets fire Barry!!!

But if you cant get one of those guys...he doesnt deserve to be fired. We probably lost 2-3 games because the defense played bad (that number is a guess, i didnt go game by game), but we also probably lost 2-3 or more because the offense was a mess.

I would be more in favor of firing Barry if the blood for the playoff losses was on his hands. But the defense did enough to have us in the NFCCG

Barry didnt not score TDs in the redzone
Barry didnt call QB sneak in a rush instead of be more thoughtful or take the points
Barry didnt take Aaron Jones out of the game everytime he got us to the red zone
Barry didnt throw two picks
Barry didnt drop two picks
Barry didnt miss a FG

My Point: Youd only fire Barry if you have a clearly better option or you want a scapegoat

[YoHoChecko]

Like i said, if you can get a star at DC. Like Vrable, belichik, or even Pete Carrol, or Selah....then lets fire Barry!!!

But if you cant get one of those guys...he doesnt deserve to be fired. We probably lost 2-3 games because the defense played bad (that number is a guess, i didnt go game by game), but we also probably lost 2-3 or more because the offense was a mess.

I would be more in favor of firing Barry if the blood for the playoff losses was on his hands. But the defense did enough to have us in the NFCCG

Barry didnt not score TDs in the redzone
Barry didnt call QB sneak in a rush instead of be more thoughtful or take the points
Barry didnt take Aaron Jones out of the game everytime he got us to the red zone
Barry didnt throw two picks
Barry didnt drop two picks
Barry didnt miss a FG

My Point: Youd only fire Barry if you have a clearly better option or you want a scapegoat

Are you kidding me, bro?

You're making it about one or five games?

This guy has been a DC in the league for ages. He has a long, long track record in this league. We have watched him perform inconsistently with the overall results being routinely bad.

He is super scheme-rigid. He doesn't change/adjust enough based on his personnel or the opposing team. He lets the offense dictate to him.

You can say that he didn't lose the playoff game for us or that others are responsible--that's fine and that's true. But a GOOD DC instead of a well-established below average (generously) DC, would be an improvement. To think we can only improve on this guy if we hire a "big name" or a "star" DC is asinine. The worst opinion I've seen on the issue. Like twenty assistants in the league could take this team's defense and do something better with it than we have seen in the long term.

The people defending Barry cherry-pick his best moments and say "see, if he did it for a few games he can do it all the time," but his career has been far far too long (and even his tenure with the Packers has been long enough) that you can't keep saying that. Someone's best work doesn;t justify keeping them if their most-common work is subpar.

He's not a scapegoat for the season. But if we want to get better moving forward, the defensive performance and scheme and play calling is a big area that can be improved.

[Yoop]

thanks for these comments Yoho, I watch other teams close out games when they have the lead, the most successful ones keep bringing heat, they even use 5 man rush groups, they don't just go into deep cover shells as Barry does most of the time.

we had a list of about 12 or so DC, or defensive assistants that can do as well or better then Barry.

[Labrev]

It's weird because I agree with Drj but I also do not disagree with anything YoHo said in response. Barry is a mediocrity, we can do much better than him, and we should. Yet when it has mattered most, his defenses have held up. I daresay they have even been good in the biggest games. Not one of our season-ending losses while he has been D-Coord can be blamed on the defense.

I only really feel the need to fire a coordinator if I feel like we cannot win with their unit. I do not care for Barry, but we can win with the job he has been doing here. I see replacing him as more of a want than a need. Don't get me wrong, I want it, but I am not clamoring for it.

[Drj820]

Like i said, if you can get a star at DC. Like Vrable, belichik, or even Pete Carrol, or Selah....then lets fire Barry!!!

But if you cant get one of those guys...he doesnt deserve to be fired. We probably lost 2-3 games because the defense played bad (that number is a guess, i didnt go game by game), but we also probably lost 2-3 or more because the offense was a mess.

I would be more in favor of firing Barry if the blood for the playoff losses was on his hands. But the defense did enough to have us in the NFCCG

Barry didnt not score TDs in the redzone
Barry didnt call QB sneak in a rush instead of be more thoughtful or take the points
Barry didnt take Aaron Jones out of the game everytime he got us to the red zone
Barry didnt throw two picks
Barry didnt drop two picks
Barry didnt miss a FG

My Point: Youd only fire Barry if you have a clearly better option or you want a scapegoat

Are you kidding me, bro?

You're making it about one or five games?

This guy has been a DC in the league for ages. He has a long, long track record in this league. We have watched him perform inconsistently with the overall results being routinely bad.

He is super scheme-rigid. He doesn't change/adjust enough based on his personnel or the opposing team. He lets the offense dictate to him.

You can say that he didn't lose the playoff game for us or that others are responsible--that's fine and that's true. But a GOOD DC instead of a well-established below average (generously) DC, would be an improvement. To think we can only improve on this guy if we hire a "big name" or a "star" DC is asinine. The worst opinion I've seen on the issue. Like twenty assistants in the league could take this team's defense and do something better with it than we have seen in the long term.

The people defending Barry cherry-pick his best moments and say "see, if he did it for a few games he can do it all the time," but his career has been far far too long (and even his tenure with the Packers has been long enough) that you can't keep saying that. Someone's best work doesn;t justify keeping them if their most-common work is subpar.

He's not a scapegoat for the season. But if we want to get better moving forward, the defensive performance and scheme and play calling is a big area that can be improved.

Thing is, im not really a "defend Barry" guy. Im completely nuetral to either outcome. Fire him, and I think we will be fine. Keep him, and we will be fine as long as the O keeps improving.

I was serious about thinking Barry has always been a convenient scapegoat.

But also, I was kind of speaking just based off everything I know about how the Packers operate.

I mean, if literally 20 assistants could do BETTER than Barry immedietely, its malpractice to keep him. Are you mad at Lafleur for keeping him? Why is he still employed?

I was telling reasons why he is staying, why is he not gone if 20 could do better?

Serious question.

[go pak go]

We are in our window. 2024 - 2026 is our window.

That means BG and MLF need to assemble the players and coaches to put us over the top.

We can improve over Barry. Barry has coached DC for 7 seasons and does not have a top 20 DVOA in 7 seasons. We need to move on. We cannot afford to waste this window. This is not the time to be risk averse. Go make the change and seek improvement.

Like MLF said, the standard and expectation has risen. The Packers have earned that. So get the right people in to optimze our team.

[Pckfn23]

It's weird because I agree with Drj but I also do not disagree with anything YoHo said in response. Barry is a mediocrity, we can do much better than him, and we should. Yet when it has mattered most, his defenses have held up. I daresay they have even been good in the biggest games. Not one of our season-ending losses while he has been D-Coord can be blamed on the defense.

I only really feel the need to fire a coordinator if I feel like we cannot win with their unit. I do not care for Barry, but we can win with the job he has been doing here. I see replacing him as more of a want than a need. Don't get me wrong, I want it, but I am not clamoring for it.

Kinda the same. Below average DC. We should be looking to replace him. His last 4 games were fairly well done, but a few exceptions does not a rule make. There were some truly horrendously schemed games this season, not to mention other seasons. It's not going to take a current star DC to upgrade. A hot assistant would do just fine.

Let's hit on the notion that he can is "good" in big games. Right when we were putting it together this season we got the Giants, Bucs, Panthers games which were all poorly coached from a defensive standpoint. Even more perplexing when you consider the Chargers, Chiefs, Lions preceding those. The last 4 this season were decent to good. 2021 against the 49ers was good. Just not sure the really bad over the last 3 years trumps about 2 games.

[Pckfn23]

Keep him, and we will be fine as long as the O keeps improving.

I would say that is a great quote in favor of firing him. If we think that we will be fine only if the O keeps improving, that's an indictment of the D.

[YoHoChecko]

On the issue of how the Packers operate, I think there's a darn good chance that Barry stays. I think [mention]Drj820[/mention] is right about that.I think it's like 60/40 toward status quo.

I'm simply saying that would be a massive mistake, and the reasons and rationale for that are exactly what [mention]go pak go[/mention] just stated. This is the window now. The guy in that job needs to not be a guy we're giving another year to in order to see if he can, for once in his career, sustain his late-season improvement into the full next season.... but The Guy who is taking us there.

Sticking with Barry would be the same level of sin as re-signing all four of our safeties and running that group back out because we've seen flashes from them.

You identify the weak points and improve upon them. For three seasons, the defense has shown incredibly high levels of schematic and play calling weakness. It's time to improve.


And we all know MLF wants a scheme that limits big plays and forces long drives which limits possessions and takes advantage of an efficient scoring offense. But if you're going to give up long sustained drives in the effort to prevent big plays, you also have to prevent big plays. We don't.

Also, while a million things went wrong in the playoff loss, I watched the Lions--the Lions who also have a crap defense that can be thrown on--shut Baker down when they had the ball and needed a TD drive. I saw the 49ers stop Jordan Love when he had 1:47 and needed a FG drive to tie. When opposing teams need a drive against us, too often they get it. I literally forgot that sometimes game-ending drives just get shut down instead of at least moving down the field and making it close.

So I don't want to hear this "they play well when it matters most." Holding the 49ers to 24 in the rain is fine, but let's not act like they went out there firing on all cylinders. On a per-play and per-drive basis, the defense has almost never been above average. It only survives based on statistics that are game-level and don't include the context of how many possessions or how long their drives go.

[Papa John]

I think my top 3 favorite DC candidates as of now are

Jerry Gray
Chris Schula
Jessie Minter

[YoHoChecko]

Are you mad at Lafleur for keeping him? Why is he still employed?

Also, I skipped over this.

Yes, I am mad at MLF for keeping him at this point.

I think MLF is an excellent head coaching hire. I have stated this a number of times.

I think that his strengths are:
- He is a certified QB whisperer
- The culture and chemistry he creates has been consistently good over the long-term of his tenure, with the exception of 2022 when things with Rodgers got too bad. There has been a lot of tumult; and the players consistently under his leadership come together and create a healthy locker room
- The offensive system and scheme are really good and up to the standards of what wins in this league

His weaknesses are:
- Timeout management
- Emotionally-driven challenge flags (which is part of timeout management, too)
- The areas of the team he is less directly involved in (defense and special teams) have not been successful, leading to questions about his coaching evaluation\


His strengths wildly compensate for his weaknesses in terms of keeping him or not. I will defend MLF as the Packers' coach until the strengths start falling off. I liked him as a candidate before MM was even fired. I liked him as the hire. And I am incredibly pleased with the overall body of work and the results. His W/L record is fantastic. His playoff disappointments are disappointments. I get that. But I'm a big MLF fan.

Last season I was pretty neutral on fire Barry, like some are now.

This year, I've seen enough. If Barry is retained, I will be quite frustrated with MLF for the decision. And the defensive performance this year will be to a much higher degree be held against him because he failed to act when the evidence was overwhelming that it was time to do so. I'm not big on in-season moves, so I was fine throughout this season. But it is time.

[Yoop]

Like i said, if you can get a star at DC. Like Vrable, belichik, or even Pete Carrol, or Selah....then lets fire Barry!!!

But if you cant get one of those guys...he doesnt deserve to be fired. We probably lost 2-3 games because the defense played bad (that number is a guess, i didnt go game by game), but we also probably lost 2-3 or more because the offense was a mess.

I would be more in favor of firing Barry if the blood for the playoff losses was on his hands. But the defense did enough to have us in the NFCCG

Barry didnt not score TDs in the redzone
Barry didnt call QB sneak in a rush instead of be more thoughtful or take the points
Barry didnt take Aaron Jones out of the game everytime he got us to the red zone
Barry didnt throw two picks
Barry didnt drop two picks
Barry didnt miss a FG

My Point: Youd only fire Barry if you have a clearly better option or you want a scapegoat

Are you kidding me, bro?

You're making it about one or five games?

This guy has been a DC in the league for ages. He has a long, long track record in this league. We have watched him perform inconsistently with the overall results being routinely bad.

He is super scheme-rigid. He doesn't change/adjust enough based on his personnel or the opposing team. He lets the offense dictate to him.

You can say that he didn't lose the playoff game for us or that others are responsible--that's fine and that's true. But a GOOD DC instead of a well-established below average (generously) DC, would be an improvement. To think we can only improve on this guy if we hire a "big name" or a "star" DC is asinine. The worst opinion I've seen on the issue. Like twenty assistants in the league could take this team's defense and do something better with it than we have seen in the long term.

The people defending Barry cherry-pick his best moments and say "see, if he did it for a few games he can do it all the time," but his career has been far far too long (and even his tenure with the Packers has been long enough) that you can't keep saying that. Someone's best work doesn;t justify keeping them if their most-common work is subpar.

He's not a scapegoat for the season. But if we want to get better moving forward, the defensive performance and scheme and play calling is a big area that can be improved.

Thing is, im not really a "defend Barry" guy. Im completely nuetral to either outcome. Fire him, and I think we will be fine. Keep him, and we will be fine as long as the O keeps improving.

I was serious about thinking Barry has always been a convenient scapegoat.

But also, I was kind of speaking just based off everything I know about how the Packers operate.

I mean, if literally 20 assistants could do BETTER than Barry immedietely, its malpractice to keep him. Are you mad at Lafleur for keeping him? Why is he still employed?

I was telling reasons why he is staying, why is he not gone if 20 could do better?

Serious question.

so it was OK to hang onto Drayton to then, your defending a bottom dweller DC, why do people think because we hung with 2 PO teams till Barry opted for less pressure and prevent and we lost one that Barry has done anything that even you could do, seriously Pckfn, you, hell anyone here could have called the defense Barry did.

[Pckfn23]

Are you kidding me, bro?

You're making it about one or five games?

This guy has been a DC in the league for ages. He has a long, long track record in this league. We have watched him perform inconsistently with the overall results being routinely bad.

He is super scheme-rigid. He doesn't change/adjust enough based on his personnel or the opposing team. He lets the offense dictate to him.

You can say that he didn't lose the playoff game for us or that others are responsible--that's fine and that's true. But a GOOD DC instead of a well-established below average (generously) DC, would be an improvement. To think we can only improve on this guy if we hire a "big name" or a "star" DC is asinine. The worst opinion I've seen on the issue. Like twenty assistants in the league could take this team's defense and do something better with it than we have seen in the long term.

The people defending Barry cherry-pick his best moments and say "see, if he did it for a few games he can do it all the time," but his career has been far far too long (and even his tenure with the Packers has been long enough) that you can't keep saying that. Someone's best work doesn;t justify keeping them if their most-common work is subpar.

He's not a scapegoat for the season. But if we want to get better moving forward, the defensive performance and scheme and play calling is a big area that can be improved.

Thing is, im not really a "defend Barry" guy. Im completely nuetral to either outcome. Fire him, and I think we will be fine. Keep him, and we will be fine as long as the O keeps improving.

I was serious about thinking Barry has always been a convenient scapegoat.

But also, I was kind of speaking just based off everything I know about how the Packers operate.

I mean, if literally 20 assistants could do BETTER than Barry immedietely, its malpractice to keep him. Are you mad at Lafleur for keeping him? Why is he still employed?

I was telling reasons why he is staying, why is he not gone if 20 could do better?

Serious question.

so it was OK to hang onto Drayton to then, your defending a bottom dweller DC, why do people think because we hung with 2 PO teams till Barry opted for less pressure and prevent and we lost one that Barry has done anything that even you could do, seriously Pckfn, you, hell anyone here could have called the defense Barry did.

Look again.

[Labrev]

I am of the opinion that coordinators should be replaced every 2-4 years regardless of their performance (lol).

I feel like there's a point at things just get stale and the rest of the league just figures you out, and that the only real edge that a coordinator has over any opposing team is being an unknown.

[Yoop]

Thing is, im not really a "defend Barry" guy. Im completely nuetral to either outcome. Fire him, and I think we will be fine. Keep him, and we will be fine as long as the O keeps improving.

I was serious about thinking Barry has always been a convenient scapegoat.

But also, I was kind of speaking just based off everything I know about how the Packers operate.

I mean, if literally 20 assistants could do BETTER than Barry immedietely, its malpractice to keep him. Are you mad at Lafleur for keeping him? Why is he still employed?

I was telling reasons why he is staying, why is he not gone if 20 could do better?

Serious question.

so it was OK to hang onto Drayton to then, your defending a bottom dweller DC, why do people think because we hung with 2 PO teams till Barry opted for less pressure and prevent and we lost one that Barry has done anything that even you could do, seriously Pckfn, you, hell anyone here could have called the defense Barry did.

Look again.

duh, real tough, trot out 4 man front, and send everyone to deep to do anything, works every time, the offense just marches down the field and scores, we had the 27th ranked defense DVOA in the league and Lafleur is going to keep that going.

my respect for Lafleur is at all time low.

[Drj820]

One thing to remember is he is under contract. If he was given a new deal, that would be far more agregious to me than just letting him finish his deal. because although we could do better, maybe, he didnt exactly do anything horrible to get canned

[Pckfn23]

so it was OK to hang onto Drayton to then, your defending a bottom dweller DC, why do people think because we hung with 2 PO teams till Barry opted for less pressure and prevent and we lost one that Barry has done anything that even you could do, seriously Pckfn, you, hell anyone here could have called the defense Barry did.

Look again.

duh, real tough, trot out 4 man front, and send everyone to deep to do anything, works every time, the offense just marches down the field and scores, we had the 27th ranked defense DVOA in the league and Lafleur is going to keep that going.

my respect for Lafleur is at all time low.

Nope, look again at who you were replying to...

image.png (3.79 KiB) Viewed 558 times

[Drj820]

whats interesting is the idea that maybe Barry just signed a two year deal originally.

Maybe the next one was two years, maybe it was three.

My point, there is a decent chance hes already been resigned, and also a chance he has more than one year on his deal .

[Yoop]

Look again.

duh, real tough, trot out 4 man front, and send everyone to deep to do anything, works every time, the offense just marches down the field and scores, we had the 27th ranked defense DVOA in the league and Lafleur is going to keep that going.

my respect for Lafleur is at all time low.

Nope, look again at who you were replying to...
image.png

I realize now that you would have just mimicked what Barry did, probably should have just went with DrJ and the rest of Packer Huddle forum

[Yoop]

whats interesting is the idea that maybe Barry just signed a two year deal originally.

Maybe the next one was two years, maybe it was three.

My point, there is a decent chance hes already been resigned, and also a chance he has more than one year on his deal .

who knows, who cares, Barry makes less then then the cheapest second contract player on our roster, I doubt contract dollars has anything to do with this.

and he is at best a mediocre DC, actually if Barry loses his job he will never be a DC in this league again, 3 strikes and your out, heck his record says he should have never been a DC anyway.

Al Harris and dozens of assistants can do everything Barry has done and more, Lafleur is going to get a media thrashing if he keeps Barry and he will deserve it

well, actually the media seems luke warm on Barry