Offensive Tackle Discussion

[Pugger]

Who did Bulaga sign with? I can't remember...

The San Angeles... California... whatever they are, Chargers.

Thanks.

[YoHoChecko]

Who did Bulaga sign with? I can't remember...

The San Angeles... California... whatever they are, Chargers.

And he's questionable for week one with an injury

[TheGreenMan]

Who did Bulaga sign with? I can't remember...

The San Angeles... California... whatever they are, Chargers.

And he's questionable for week one with an injury

I saw that.

Bulletin point number one on why we didn't sign him to a deal.

[Chilli]

What?

Those metrics don't fit anyone.

Bakhtiari is just under 6'5"
Lane Taylor is 6' 3"
Billy Turner is a hair under 6'5" (by an eighth of an inch)
Elgton Jenkins is 6''4 1/2"
Linsley is shorter than 6'3"
Lucas Patrick is 6' 3 1/2"

The guys we drafted this year:
Hansen: 6' 4 3/8"
Stefanik: 6' 4 1/8"
Runyan: 6' 4 1/4"

With the exception of Bulaga and Spriggs, Bakhtiari, Taylor, Linsley, Patrick are all McCarthy Era OL and they're all 6'4" or under. They did not often bring in guys taller than that.

Under LaFleur we've made a concerted effort to bring in OL at least 6'5 with the odd exceptions.

Turner, Nijman, Braden, DeBeer, Madison, Veldheer, Leglue, Conway, Bruffy, Runyan, Wagner, Hanson, Light, Johnson are all at least 6'5". Even Britt who they recently worked out is 6'5". There's a clear pattern emerging with regard to their height preferences.

I even looked at LaFleur Titans OL. With the odd exceptions of course, his OL had Lewin, Conklin and Pamphile who are all over 6'5". Even the backups (Kelly, Pasztor, Martz) that were brought that year were over 6'5"

Shanahan is the same. Looking closely at his Falcons and 49ers offensive lines he had lots of guys over 6'5".

[YoHoChecko]

Turner, Nijman, Braden, DeBeer, Madison, Veldheer, Leglue, Conway, Bruffy, Runyan, Wagner, Hanson, Light, Johnson are all at least 6'5". Even Britt who they recently worked out is 6'5". There's a clear pattern emerging with regard to their height preferences.

Billy Turner is under 6'5". Runyan is under 6'5" I literally just listed those. Turner will be listed at 6'5" because that's how rounding works, but he's at the lower end of that. You mostly list a ton of UDFAs and waiver wire types and try to make a trend out of it, but the FA signings (Tuner and Wagner) and the draft picks (Runyan, Stefanik, Hansen, and Jenkins) over the past two years show no such trend. Only Wagner of that group is over 6'5". If you're ONLY talking about OTs then we are just split between Wagner and Turner.

Cole Madison was brought in by Gutey, but under MM not MLF. And he was brought in to play OG, so if you're just doing OTs, eliminate him; if you're just doing MLF, eliminate him.

I'm sorry, but there is just zero evidence that the team is targeting OL over 6'5". Almost all of them are between 6'3" and 6'5". Only Nijman is not between 6'3" and 6'6". Looking only at lower end cap bodies is also not a great way to identify trends because the team will be more willing to bend or break guidelines when investing nothing in a player. Nijman, with a year on the PS and now on the active roster, makes sense to evaluate. But say, DeBeer or Conway? They were passthrough bodies.

I think the team actually winds up with fewer very tall bodies (over 6'6" let's say) both because it's harder to get leverage and bend but more importantly because it's better for position versatility. If you want a guy that can line up at OG and OT, you want a guy under 6'6". Given how many of the guys they bring in have played multiple positions in college or are brought in to play different positions than they played in college, you're rarely going to get a guy who's 6'6" to do that. Most OGs in the league are going to be under that. So while I don't think we're TARGETING shorter OLmen, I do think that the method and preferences we DO have naturally will wind up with shorter OLmen.

But trying to sy that we like our OL over 6'5" when zero of 4 drafted OLmen and 1 of 2 signed OL have that qualification doesn't hold water.

[BF004]

Wanted to talk about this more, given what has transpired since the season began. I guess the whole OL in general.

So we have Bakhtiari and Linsley in contrat years, both are playing great, both will likely require top 3 money at the positions overall to resign.

Given our cap restrictions and others to resign. Seems like a forgone conclusion Linsley will be playing elsewhere next year.



However, the first big domino is David Bahktiari. The LT market has just been reset this offseason, might be talking like 22 per to resign Bak. He is worth being paid as the highest LT in the league, but should the Packers?
I remember there was a study like a decade ago that basically showed that high paid LT's was one of the least correlatable positions to wins, with safety being one of the best. That may have been perpetually skewed from the Browns having Joe Thomas, lol, but nonetheless.

Could Elgton Jenkins be a long term possibility at LT? If he isn't, then we really have nothing. We absolutely can not afford to have a liability at LT, not sure if having the highest paid LT in the league is what we want either.

So if we do sign Bak, Linsley has gotta be like 95% gone and I would imagine Billy Turner gone as well. However, under contract we would have:
Elgton (2023)
Patrick (2021)
Turner (2023) (3.55 million cap savings if released, 5.85 savings to the 2022 cap if released the following offseason)
Wagner (2021) (4.25 million cap savings if released)
Runyan (2024)
Nijman (2023 with restricted FA years)
Stepaniak (2024)
Hanson (2024 with restricted FA years)

I would not rule out Lane Taylor coming back for pretty cheap, <2 million. Kind of fluke injuries with him, so not necessarily a strong reason to expect him either lose a step or be any more injury prone, within reason.

That kind of leaves us with a depth chart of
LT: Bak, Nijman
LG: Jenkins/Stepaniak
C: Patrick/Hanson
RG: Turner/Runyan/Stepaniak
RT: Wagner/Turner/Nijman

That is with no further additions, that looks like a fairly competent line already. Even if moving on from Turner, can definitely add some more draft picks in there or like I said bring back Taylor as well.

------------------------------------------------------

Now if we do not resign Baktiari, I almost have to imagine they think Jenkins is a possibility or they will just target a competent level veteran on the market for around half the price (similar as we just did with Kirksey v. Martinez and Wagner v. Bulaga). A few solid possibilities could be available next year.

image.png (75.17 KiB) Viewed 170 times

If we don't resign Bak, gotta think that would potentially open the door for resigning Linsley, although I don't think most here would want to pay a center a ton of money. Also makes it more likely we keep average to below average guys like Turner and Wagner.

But kind of too many possibilities here if we don't resign Bak to realistically talk about.

[Yoop]

Turner, Nijman, Braden, DeBeer, Madison, Veldheer, Leglue, Conway, Bruffy, Runyan, Wagner, Hanson, Light, Johnson are all at least 6'5". Even Britt who they recently worked out is 6'5". There's a clear pattern emerging with regard to their height preferences.

Billy Turner is under 6'5". Runyan is under 6'5" I literally just listed those. Turner will be listed at 6'5" because that's how rounding works, but he's at the lower end of that. You mostly list a ton of UDFAs and waiver wire types and try to make a trend out of it, but the FA signings (Tuner and Wagner) and the draft picks (Runyan, Stefanik, Hansen, and Jenkins) over the past two years show no such trend. Only Wagner of that group is over 6'5". If you're ONLY talking about OTs then we are just split between Wagner and Turner.

Cole Madison was brought in by Gutey, but under MM not MLF. And he was brought in to play OG, so if you're just doing OTs, eliminate him; if you're just doing MLF, eliminate him.

I'm sorry, but there is just zero evidence that the team is targeting OL over 6'5". Almost all of them are between 6'3" and 6'5". Only Nijman is not between 6'3" and 6'6". Looking only at lower end cap bodies is also not a great way to identify trends because the team will be more willing to bend or break guidelines when investing nothing in a player. Nijman, with a year on the PS and now on the active roster, makes sense to evaluate. But say, DeBeer or Conway? They were passthrough bodies.

I think the team actually winds up with fewer very tall bodies (over 6'6" let's say) both because it's harder to get leverage and bend but more importantly because it's better for position versatility. If you want a guy that can line up at OG and OT, you want a guy under 6'6". Given how many of the guys they bring in have played multiple positions in college or are brought in to play different positions than they played in college, you're rarely going to get a guy who's 6'6" to do that. Most OGs in the league are going to be under that. So while I don't think we're TARGETING shorter OLmen, I do think that the method and preferences we DO have naturally will wind up with shorter OLmen.

But trying to sy that we like our OL over 6'5" when zero of 4 drafted OLmen and 1 of 2 signed OL have that qualification doesn't hold water.

more then just size, I think the ZBS relies so much more on quickness and agility, I use to complain about Linsley being a under sized ( a little bit) center, but in our run blocking schemes he does a great job of washing out and walling off 2nd level defenders, (obvious with Jones 75 yard scamper Sunday), over the years I've seen the taller OL man struggle with that stuff.

another point someone made (maybe you) about height being a problem for a QB to throw over, now a inch or so doesn't seem like a lot, it's not as though a QB can't over come that, unless he's used to 6'3 guards and all of a sudden we give him a 6'6 guard, 3 inches is a lot when your not use to it, as you said we often inter change tackles to guard so that type height difference can make a difference.

lastly we do see tall players struggle with leverage, that alone voids some quickness and agility, I've always felt 6'4 is about my limit for Guards and 6'5 for tackles, but it's just a personal preference.

[YoHoChecko]

lastly we do see tall players struggle with leverage, that alone voids some quickness and agility, I've always felt 6'4 is about my limit for Guards and 6'5 for tackles, but it's just a personal preference.

Basically same, give or take a few fractions of an inch.

And those are guidelines more than rules.

[YoHoChecko]

That kind of leaves us with a depth chart of
LT: Bak, Nijman
LG: Jenkins/Stepaniak
C: Patrick/Hanson
RG: Turner/Runyan/Stepaniak
RT: Wagner/Turner/Nijman

That is with no further additions, that looks like a fairly competent line already. Even if moving on from Turner, can definitely add some more draft picks in there or like I said bring back Taylor as well.

Yeah, I think the option has to be re-sign Bakh, gut it out for 2021 with some big cap numbers on Wagner and Turner (not big for starting OTs, but bigger than rookie deals) and draft a RT prospect and a guy who can compete with Hansen to be the C of the future in the later rounds next year and have them ready to slide in for 2022. Having a 2022 with all the linemen except Bakhtiari on rookie deals or Lucas Patrick's final year of backup money would make really help make the bigger 2022 jumps in a lot of salaries manageable.

The notion of Bakh - Jenkins - Hansen/21draft - Runyan - 21draft with Lucas Patrick, Yosh Nijmen, and Stepaniak as some depth for 2022 seems highly likely to me, understanding that this is a goofy amount of time to be projecting forward (and also that Jenkins may ultimately move to RT)