Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023

[Drj820]

The saints plan failed because they’ve whiffed at QB post Bree’s.

That and taysom hill must have compromising info on front office. He’s a hug cap number and he is not a real qb. That situation is weird.

[Yoop]

Loomis is just trying to win enough to fill the seats while he finds a new QB, makes sense to me.

The hardest pivot you have made yet, and that is saying something! I thought he was doing it to extend a great QBs window???

he's extending competitiveness, He's doing his job, something you are avoiding

[Half Empty]

Again, folks, don't feed the troll.

[Trudge]

The saints plan failed because they’ve whiffed at QB post Bree’s.

That and taysom hill must have compromising info on front office. He’s a hug cap number and he is not a real qb. That situation is weird.

Taysom Hill is either a fake or an all star TE / RB that kinda plays runnung QB.

[Madcity_matt]

fools rush in

what is the job of the GM, obviously to build a competitive team, what does having a competitive team do? it fills the seats, so what actually is the job of a GM? obviously it amounts to the later.

with Rodgers kicking dead cap seemed more warranted, but it can be the same with NO, we are using the QB position or lack of with NO to say what they have done is wrong and it was OK with us doing it

Loomis is just trying to win enough to fill the seats while he finds a new QB, makes sense to me.

The Packers have been sold out for every game since 1960. By your new logic, it's safe to assume that your stance is every single Packers GM since 1960 has been successful?

[go pak go]

fools rush in

what is the job of the GM, obviously to build a competitive team, what does having a competitive team do? it fills the seats, so what actually is the job of a GM? obviously it amounts to the later.

with Rodgers kicking dead cap seemed more warranted, but it can be the same with NO, we are using the QB position or lack of with NO to say what they have done is wrong and it was OK with us doing it

Loomis is just trying to win enough to fill the seats while he finds a new QB, makes sense to me.

A GM's job is to build an effective team with a 3 - 5 year outlook

[YoHoChecko]

Look here's the thing about the Saints' model and how it relates to ours.

The Saints saw the waning years of Brees' career as their best shot for a Super Bowl and they continually kicked cap space to load up knowing at some point they'd pay the piper. The result was that Brees did not win a Super Bowl and the team has been stuck in mediocrity and cap hell ever since, having to rely on young players and the draft.... though part of that is because of what they've done since Brees (more later)...

The Packers saw the waning years of Rodgers' career as their best shot for a Super Bowl and they continually kicked cap space to load up knowing at some point they'd pay the piper ('20-'22), with the exception of one big future-oriented pick in the first round of 2020. The result was that Rodgers did not win a Super Bowl and the team is left in cap hell and needs to lean on young players and the draft to rebuild.

The Saints did not have a QB solution and tried to patchwork it with a variety of mid-tier QB contracts. They also continued to make free agency splashes and kicking the cap instead of tearing things down and cleaning up the cap before moving onto the next phase. They liked their roster so much that they thought they could go patchwork at QB and compete right away.

The Packers did a half-hearted cap cleanup last year and are going into this year where they can either get right, or again follow the Saints' lead and push the cap chips to the center of the table and push off some of the medicine into yet another year ('25).

I don't mind making some moves here and there, but what I think is essential is that this year not be a year to use void years and restructures to push things back. This is a year to sign players to contracts and years that you think the player will play--contracts that last. We have, under this exact management (Gutey and Ball) done that before. It's within our wheelhouse. But they need to re-align their focus in that direction.

And then next year, go right back to the "window" mentality.

So people are not saying the Saints are wrong and the Packers are right. I think both failed in their Super Bowl or bust goals and lessons should be learned by that. Both are massively hampered by dead cap space and need to take their lumps to fix it. Thankfully, due to our management decisions and QB coaching room, we have a young QB to build around while the Saints don't.

People will still point to the Bucs getting Brady and all his buddies to show that you can go all-in and win. But it's a plan that fails as often as it succeeds. And Brady is, clearly, an exception to a lot of trends in the NFL. Rodgers and the Packers didn't get it there. Brees and the Saints didn't get it there. Before that, Rivers and the Chargers didn't get it there.

And meanwhile, Mahomes got it done in what should have been down years the past two--in terms of needing rookies to contribute in '22 and failing to rebuild the weapons in '23.

So it's not to say that going all-in is a worse outcome than not going all-in. I'm just saying both options fail more than they succeed and both options have succeeded with HoF caliber QBs.

[Yoop]

fools rush in

what is the job of the GM, obviously to build a competitive team, what does having a competitive team do? it fills the seats, so what actually is the job of a GM? obviously it amounts to the later.

with Rodgers kicking dead cap seemed more warranted, but it can be the same with NO, we are using the QB position or lack of with NO to say what they have done is wrong and it was OK with us doing it

Loomis is just trying to win enough to fill the seats while he finds a new QB, makes sense to me.

The Packers have been sold out for every game since 1960. By your new logic, it's safe to assume that your stance is every single Packers GM since 1960 has been successful?

don't you think being the only show in town helps fill those seats? I was at enough games during the 70's and 80's, just because all the seats where sold, there where lots of empty seats in those 2 decades.

A GM's job is to build a team that is competitive enough to attract fans, which means winning more then you lose, winning PO or SB games comes after that.

[Pckfn23]

Both are massively hampered by dead cap space and need to take their lumps to fix it.

Were for the Packers, are for the Saints. That's the major difference and a big one at that. Packers took that lump, Saints continue to try and run it back and are now $81 million over the cap without having been competitive the last 3 season.

[YoHoChecko]

Both are massively hampered by dead cap space and need to take their lumps to fix it.

Were for the Packers, are for the Saints. That's the major difference and a big one at that. Packers took that lump, Saints continues to try and run it back and are not $81 million over the cap without having been competitive the last 3 season.

Yeah, the Saints are like two years ahead of the Packers on this arc and the Saints are what the Packers WILL look like if they don't clean up and reset before moving back into "open the window" mode.

The Packers COULD restructure and void year every big contract they have to clear up space right now to make free agent splashes this offseason and be in bigtime trouble in 2 years if they don't get a ring with Love right now.

The Packers could be the Saints but with a QB or they could be the Packers again. I think the Packers followed the Saints model at the end of Rodgers' career mostly because Rodgers really wanted that even though people thought it was the Brady-to-Tampa model. Brady-to-Tampa worked because they signed a HoF QB to a $25-million a year deal onto a team that had been built without a massive QB contract pre-existing and thus had a lot of pieces and some money to spend to bring in all the guys that followed Brady.

So the Packers couldn't follow the Brady-to-Bucs model. We had been built as a team with a massive QB contract and with a QB who was still demanding a top-paid deal at the time, unlike Brady. When the Packers couldn't take that approach, Rodgers tried again to take the Brady approach by going to the Bucs, renegotiating to help save them money, and then rupturing his achilles.

In general though, Rodgers spent the end of his career wanting to be Tom Brady but until last year completely unwilling to make the sacrifices and decisions that Brady continuously made in his career, both contractually and on the field (for instance, eliminating bad sacks and taking more checkdowns)

The Bucs model worked because the team was built without a top QB contract and because the HoF QB who showed up took a deal at like 60-70% of the top of the market. The Saints model, which the Packers followed, is a high-risk crapshoot hampered by crippling QB contracts and dead money to keep a roster around them.

The Mahomes model is interesting and I can't really categorize it quite yet. Seems like a HoFer on a below-market contract which is great--but he also is in the juicier part of his contract at the moment and is still winning championships. So... I guess he's just better than Brees and Rodgers

[Yoop]

So people are not saying the Saints are wrong and the Packers are right.

sure sounded that way to me, seemed like others where saying or comparing how much worse the Saints have it then we did, again to me only degree's ( we had a 1st round QB in the wings, they didn't) of the back loading contracts and dates are different.

both teams did what has been done by other teams, and we just got a 30 mil bump in the cap, as expected, which will help teams right there caps.

more hullabaloo over blown by sports media.

[Yoop]

fools rush in

what is the job of the GM, obviously to build a competitive team, what does having a competitive team do? it fills the seats, so what actually is the job of a GM? obviously it amounts to the later.

with Rodgers kicking dead cap seemed more warranted, but it can be the same with NO, we are using the QB position or lack of with NO to say what they have done is wrong and it was OK with us doing it

Loomis is just trying to win enough to fill the seats while he finds a new QB, makes sense to me.

A GM's job is to build an effective team with a 3 - 5 year outlook

which accomplishes the same thing, which is something a GB GM worries less about then any other GM in the league because Packer faithful will fill the seats even for a bad team, just give that a try in LA or NY, or Philly etc. the Jets GM did his job last year even though the team stunk.

[YoHoChecko]

So people are not saying the Saints are wrong and the Packers are right.

sure sounded that way to me, seemed like others where saying or comparing how much worse the Saints have it then we did, again to me only degree's ( we had a 1st round QB in the wings, they didn't) of the back loading contracts and dates are different.

both teams did what has been done by other teams, and we just got a 30 mil bump in the cap, as expected, which will help teams right there caps.

more hullabaloo over blown by sports media.

Yeah, maybe people are saying it.

I guess I'M not saying the Saints did it wrong and the Packers did it right. I think they both handled the end-of-QB career scenarios the exact same way and it failed for both of them. I think the post-HoF QB era showed that the Saints don't know how to pivot and re-set and now they're in a world of hurt and the Packers have one major advantage in having drafted their QB of the future during that phase. And they have the choice to follow that road or not to. They can be in better shape or they can be in the same shape; the choice is the next two years.

So the Packers are in better shape right now than the Saints are right now because the Packers are where the Saints were a couple years ago except with Jordan Love instead of Jameis Winston and with the option to clean themselves up or to dive right back into the kick-the-cap-can game

[Pckfn23]

We aren't talking about the end of a HOF QBs career scenario for the Saints! They are going into 4 years removed from that!

2022 they were $70 million over.
2023 they were $55 million over.
2024 they are $81 million over.

The situations just are not the same and it isn't due to just Jordan Love.

[YoHoChecko]

We aren't talking about the end of a HOF QBs career scenario for the Saints! They are going into 4 years removed from that!

2022 they were $70 million over.
2023 they were $55 million over.
2024 they are $81 million over.

The situations just are not the same and it isn't due to just Jordan Love.

That's why I said they are two years ahead of us and their circumstance depends on the choices they made AFTER that and we still have the opportunity not to do that but we still could do that.

We are going into 2 years removed from Rodgers; they are going into 4 years removed from Brees. They declined to take their lumps and get fiscally healthy when it came time to rebuild. We kinda split the needle last year (could have torched all the big contracts like Bakh and Preston; still did some void-year extensions to get through a tight year... but have started moving on and going young)

So what we do next will determine if we continue to look like the Saints or if we don't.

[Yoop]

So people are not saying the Saints are wrong and the Packers are right.

sure sounded that way to me, seemed like others where saying or comparing how much worse the Saints have it then we did, again to me only degree's ( we had a 1st round QB in the wings, they didn't) of the back loading contracts and dates are different.

both teams did what has been done by other teams, and we just got a 30 mil bump in the cap, as expected, which will help teams right there caps.

more hullabaloo over blown by sports media.

Yeah, maybe people are saying it.

I guess I'M not saying the Saints did it wrong and the Packers did it right. I think they both handled the end-of-QB career scenarios the exact same way and it failed for both of them. I think the post-HoF QB era showed that the Saints don't know how to pivot and re-set and now they're in a world of hurt and the Packers have one major advantage in having drafted their QB of the future during that phase. And they have the choice to follow that road or not to. They can be in better shape or they can be in the same shape; the choice is the next two years.

So the Packers are in better shape right now than the Saints are right now because the Packers are where the Saints were a couple years ago except with Jordan Love instead of Jameis Winston and with the option to clean themselves up or to dive right back into the kick-the-cap-can game

Loomis counted on Jameis Winston to be Jorden Love, imo ya can't fault the GM for thinking poorly, to me thats what makes the pivot fail for them, otherwise both teams did about the same thing, had the same goal, and both teams are taking there lumps for trying.
heres the kicker, no one here complained when we did this, and everyone minus hindsight would do it all over again too.

[Drj820]

guys, its not that complicated.

Packers did pretty well during their "take your lumps" year because they groomed a QB and had a great draft in 2023. Many rookies contributed.

Saints have delayed their "take your lumps" year because they play in a terrible division and they dont want to punt on a chance to make the playoffs while the road is pretty easy.

Saints plan would be fine if Carr wasnt trash, their coach wasnt trash, etc.

I see the rationale behind both approaches, saints just have failed at the execution of their plan.

[Pckfn23]

We aren't talking about the end of a HOF QBs career scenario for the Saints! They are going into 4 years removed from that!

2022 they were $70 million over.
2023 they were $55 million over.
2024 they are $81 million over.

The situations just are not the same and it isn't due to just Jordan Love.

That's why I said they are two years ahead of us and their circumstance depends on the choices they made AFTER that and we still have the opportunity not to do that but we still could do that.

We are going into 2 years removed from Rodgers; they are going into 4 years removed from Brees. They declined to take their lumps and get fiscally healthy when it came time to rebuild. We kinda split the needle last year (could have torched all the big contracts like Bakh and Preston; still did some void-year extensions to get through a tight year... but have started moving on and going young)

So what we do next will determine if we continue to look like the Saints or if we don't.

I mean, sure the Packers could go all scorched earth and $%@# the cap royally, but they are already $70 million ahead of where the Saints were 2 years removed from their HOF QB. I just don't see that as a realistic possibility.

[Labrev]

Saints have delayed their "take your lumps" year

Years, plural. No way they will wipe out their cap debt in a single "take your lumps" season.

We did not even wipe it all out last year with way less and an unheard-of amount of players on rookie deals in a big role.

because they play in a terrible division and they dont want to punt on a chance to make the playoffs while the road is pretty easy.

They would do it even if this were not the case. No GM and Coach want to preside over a lost season, let alone multiple such seasons at a time, because one or both of them will take the fall for it. And no team owner wants that either because sales will suffer.

NO will do this as long as they can get away with it.

[YoHoChecko]

I mean, sure the Packers could go all scorched earth and $%@# the cap royally, but they are already $70 million ahead of where the Saints were 2 years removed from their HOF QB. I just don't see that as a realistic possibility.

I guess my point is that it doesn’t take scorched earth. It takes continuing to do what we have mostly done for the past 3-4 years. Max void year extensions, big-to-solid contracts for our mid-tier free agent extensions (Campbell comes to mind)

I’m responding to people looking at top tier free agent safeties out there talking/thinking about “how much cap space can we clear?”

I’m simply saying we need to commit to a cleaning before we jump back into pushing the chips to the middle.

You say we’re ahead of where they are, which true, we were never $70 million but we did approach the offseason over the cap very recently. We get under the cap by clearing space and restructure, just like they did.

So I’m just pointing out that we have to stop where as the Saints did not stop.