Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2023

[Pckfn23]

I mean, sure the Packers could go all scorched earth and $%@# the cap royally, but they are already $70 million ahead of where the Saints were 2 years removed from their HOF QB. I just don't see that as a realistic possibility.

I guess my point is that it doesn’t take scorched earth. It takes continuing to do what we have mostly done for the past 3-4 years. Max void year extensions, big-to-solid contracts for our mid-tier free agent extensions (Campbell comes to mind)

I’m responding to people looking at top tier free agent safeties out there talking/thinking about “how much cap space can we clear?”

I’m simply saying we need to commit to a cleaning before we jump back into pushing the chips to the middle.

You say we’re ahead of where they are, which true, we were never $70 million but we did approach the offseason over the cap very recently. We get under the cap by clearing space and restructure, just like they did.

So I’m just pointing out that we have to stop where as the Saints did not stop.

2020-2022 Packers were a different build philosophy than the 2023 Packers. We have already pretty much stopped, especially compared to the Saints. What we did and are doing is just not comparable. Jordan Love gets us more wins, but on a pure salary cap basis, they screwed the pooch. We opened a window, kept it open 1 year too long, and then took our lumps for the most part. The comparison to the Saints doesn't ring true, no matter how we look at it. At the end of the 2022 season the Packers were $16 million over the cap. They are $500,000 over right now. We are going the right way when it comes to getting the cap right and still winning. The Saints are not in either aspect.

[Yoop]

I mean, sure the Packers could go all scorched earth and $%@# the cap royally, but they are already $70 million ahead of where the Saints were 2 years removed from their HOF QB. I just don't see that as a realistic possibility.

I guess my point is that it doesn’t take scorched earth. It takes continuing to do what we have mostly done for the past 3-4 years. Max void year extensions, big-to-solid contracts for our mid-tier free agent extensions (Campbell comes to mind)

I’m responding to people looking at top tier free agent safeties out there talking/thinking about “how much cap space can we clear?”

I’m simply saying we need to commit to a cleaning before we jump back into pushing the chips to the middle.

You say we’re ahead of where they are, which true, we were never $70 million but we did approach the offseason over the cap very recently. We get under the cap by clearing space and restructure, just like they did.

So I’m just pointing out that we have to stop where as the Saints did not stop.

2020-2022 Packers were a different build philosophy than the 2023 Packers. We have already pretty much stopped, especially compared to the Saints. What we did and are doing is just not comparable. Jordan Love gets us more wins, but on a pure salary cap basis, they screwed the pooch. We opened a window, kept it open 1 year too long, and then took our lumps for the most part. The comparison to the Saints doesn't ring true, no matter how we look at it. At the end of the 2022 season the Packers were $16 million over the cap. They are $500,000 over right now. We are going the right way when it comes to getting the cap right and still winning. The Saints are not in either aspect.

the SAints can clear this in a couple seasons, and if they had succeeded no one would say a word, if we keep Bakh we'll be kicking money forward, and we'll do so with Jones, and others, and if Love failed we'd be going deeper to bring in a QB.

the only difference is that NO thought a average QB could be carried by the rest of the team, your sure invested in making Loomis out to be a moron for doing basically what we and other teams have done, now make sure and come back to get the last word in

[Pckfn23]

I guess my point is that it doesn’t take scorched earth. It takes continuing to do what we have mostly done for the past 3-4 years. Max void year extensions, big-to-solid contracts for our mid-tier free agent extensions (Campbell comes to mind)

I’m responding to people looking at top tier free agent safeties out there talking/thinking about “how much cap space can we clear?”

I’m simply saying we need to commit to a cleaning before we jump back into pushing the chips to the middle.

You say we’re ahead of where they are, which true, we were never $70 million but we did approach the offseason over the cap very recently. We get under the cap by clearing space and restructure, just like they did.

So I’m just pointing out that we have to stop where as the Saints did not stop.

2020-2022 Packers were a different build philosophy than the 2023 Packers. We have already pretty much stopped, especially compared to the Saints. What we did and are doing is just not comparable. Jordan Love gets us more wins, but on a pure salary cap basis, they screwed the pooch. We opened a window, kept it open 1 year too long, and then took our lumps for the most part. The comparison to the Saints doesn't ring true, no matter how we look at it. At the end of the 2022 season the Packers were $16 million over the cap. They are $500,000 over right now. We are going the right way when it comes to getting the cap right and still winning. The Saints are not in either aspect.

the SAints can clear this in a couple seasons, and if they had succeeded no one would say a word, if we keep Bakh we'll be kicking money forward, and we'll do so with Jones, and others, and if Love failed we'd be going deeper to bring in a QB.

the only difference is that NO thought a average QB could be carried by the rest of the team, your sure invested in making Loomis out to be a moron for doing basically what we and other teams have done, now make sure and come back to get the last word in

Let the adults have a real conversation. Thanks!

[YoHoChecko]

2020-2022 Packers were a different build philosophy than the 2023 Packers. We have already pretty much stopped, especially compared to the Saints. What we did and are doing is just not comparable. Jordan Love gets us more wins, but on a pure salary cap basis, they screwed the pooch. We opened a window, kept it open 1 year too long, and then took our lumps for the most part. The comparison to the Saints doesn't ring true, no matter how we look at it. At the end of the 2022 season the Packers were $16 million over the cap. They are $500,000 over right now. We are going the right way when it comes to getting the cap right and still winning. The Saints are not in either aspect.

You're definitely right on the details and the degree. I'm not in full disagreement in this conversation at all--at least from my point of view. I'm simply saying that we took a pause for a year and didn't do the whole job. You're right that the Saints didn't pause at all. But a lot of people sound ready to go back and make a push with our new young roster and I just want to use the Saints as a cautionary tale and say "hey, let's be smart one more year."

And again, last year we didn't go FULL cleanup. We did keep a couple expensive aging vets (with mixed on-field results and return-on-investment) and we cleared a bunch of space by doing void-year extensions that will create dead money. With Savage and Nixon and Nijman (smaller numbers but relevant) we DO indeed look to be moving on and taking the hit.

I want to see how they treat Kenny Clark's contract situation; how they treat Bakhtiari and Campbell; how they move in free agency. Things like that. I'm just saying we can't get too comfortable too soon and start stretching and spending again. I want another year. Yes, the Saints have done it the worst of anyone. But I'm pushing back on the general idea that I see among some fans--not necessarily anyone in particular--that it's time to make a big push and go for the gold again.

I agree we can go for the gold. But I think we should do it with extreme fiscal restraint this year.

[Pckfn23]

2020-2022 Packers were a different build philosophy than the 2023 Packers. We have already pretty much stopped, especially compared to the Saints. What we did and are doing is just not comparable. Jordan Love gets us more wins, but on a pure salary cap basis, they screwed the pooch. We opened a window, kept it open 1 year too long, and then took our lumps for the most part. The comparison to the Saints doesn't ring true, no matter how we look at it. At the end of the 2022 season the Packers were $16 million over the cap. They are $500,000 over right now. We are going the right way when it comes to getting the cap right and still winning. The Saints are not in either aspect.

You're definitely right on the details and the degree. I'm not in full disagreement in this conversation at all--at least from my point of view. I'm simply saying that we took a pause for a year and didn't do the whole job. You're right that the Saints didn't pause at all. But a lot of people sound ready to go back and make a push with our new young roster and I just want to use the Saints as a cautionary tale and say "hey, let's be smart one more year."

And again, last year we didn't go FULL cleanup. We did keep a couple expensive aging vets (with mixed on-field results and return-on-investment) and we cleared a bunch of space by doing void-year extensions that will create dead money. With Savage and Nixon and Nijman (smaller numbers but relevant) we DO indeed look to be moving on and taking the hit.

I want to see how they treat Kenny Clark's contract situation; how they treat Bakhtiari and Campbell; how they move in free agency. Things like that. I'm just saying we can't get too comfortable too soon and start stretching and spending again. I want another year. Yes, the Saints have done it the worst of anyone. But I'm pushing back on the general idea that I see among some fans--not necessarily anyone in particular--that it's time to make a big push and go for the gold again.

I agree we can go for the gold. But I think we should do it with extreme fiscal restraint this year.

I see, you are coming from the talk that we should add all these high priced free agents. I guess I haven't taken that talk seriously. It looks like more uninformed fans and media-types than anything. From my perspective I see us riding the youth train this season with the exception of a mid to low tier free agent. So, to summarize, I don't see us going full Saints, and even if we did go full Saints I don't see it as possible to even get there.

Who did we restructure last offseason to add void years? Bakhtiari is a no. I don't think cutting him last year was even on the table, but that was one of few that would qualify for "cleaning house." We added 1 void year for Preston Smith to the tune of $1.667 million. We weren't cutting him last offseason no matter what. We restructured Aaron Jones to add 1 void year for $1.697 million. He took a pay cut to stay. We added 1 void year to Alexander's contract for $2.364 million. Campbell added 1 void year for $657,000. Is that the lot? Personally I think void years are the new normal now. I think if we keep them manageable and add them to guys we believe we will resign, I don't mind them. I hope we resign Aaron Jones to recoup some of his other void years we added before 2023. That one I don't like.

I agree with you. This year is not the big push year.

[Drj820]

Packers Org has never been irresponsible AND there has always been room and possibilities to go even MORE in debt and push MORE out to the future.

Some will like this from the Pack, some will wish they did more.

But there was def always room to do a little more.

Saints have been about at the limit.

[lupedafiasco]

2020-2022 Packers were a different build philosophy than the 2023 Packers. We have already pretty much stopped, especially compared to the Saints. What we did and are doing is just not comparable. Jordan Love gets us more wins, but on a pure salary cap basis, they screwed the pooch. We opened a window, kept it open 1 year too long, and then took our lumps for the most part. The comparison to the Saints doesn't ring true, no matter how we look at it. At the end of the 2022 season the Packers were $16 million over the cap. They are $500,000 over right now. We are going the right way when it comes to getting the cap right and still winning. The Saints are not in either aspect.

You're definitely right on the details and the degree. I'm not in full disagreement in this conversation at all--at least from my point of view. I'm simply saying that we took a pause for a year and didn't do the whole job. You're right that the Saints didn't pause at all. But a lot of people sound ready to go back and make a push with our new young roster and I just want to use the Saints as a cautionary tale and say "hey, let's be smart one more year."

And again, last year we didn't go FULL cleanup. We did keep a couple expensive aging vets (with mixed on-field results and return-on-investment) and we cleared a bunch of space by doing void-year extensions that will create dead money. With Savage and Nixon and Nijman (smaller numbers but relevant) we DO indeed look to be moving on and taking the hit.

I want to see how they treat Kenny Clark's contract situation; how they treat Bakhtiari and Campbell; how they move in free agency. Things like that. I'm just saying we can't get too comfortable too soon and start stretching and spending again. I want another year. Yes, the Saints have done it the worst of anyone. But I'm pushing back on the general idea that I see among some fans--not necessarily anyone in particular--that it's time to make a big push and go for the gold again.

I agree we can go for the gold. But I think we should do it with extreme fiscal restraint this year.

Still gonna have a lot of dead money this year. We already are down $10M in dead cap just from the void years accelerating from Njiman, Savage, and Nixon.Thats not including what we pickup from Bak or anyone else we cut.

Even next season we eat $13.5M for Clark, $6.6M for Jones, and that doesnt include the $7M to likely cut Preston.

[Yoop]

Packers Org has never been irresponsible AND there has always been room and possibilities to go even MORE in debt and push MORE out to the future.

Some will like this from the Pack, some will wish they did more.

But there was def always room to do a little more.

Saints have been about at the limit.

yesterday is a cancelled check, tomorrow a promissory note, the present is like cash in hand, seriously who cares about the credit account as long as it's not abused.

no one gave two &%$@ about any of this when we did it, and we didn't have the cushion of a 30 mil. cap hike either, NO can pull almost completely out of this, or at least pay it down to the point it wont hurt them in a couple seasons, they gambled and failed just as we did, anyone that wants to disparage them for doing it is just acting like a hypocrite.

[BF004]

2020-2022 Packers were a different build philosophy than the 2023 Packers. We have already pretty much stopped, especially compared to the Saints. What we did and are doing is just not comparable. Jordan Love gets us more wins, but on a pure salary cap basis, they screwed the pooch. We opened a window, kept it open 1 year too long, and then took our lumps for the most part. The comparison to the Saints doesn't ring true, no matter how we look at it. At the end of the 2022 season the Packers were $16 million over the cap. They are $500,000 over right now. We are going the right way when it comes to getting the cap right and still winning. The Saints are not in either aspect.

You're definitely right on the details and the degree. I'm not in full disagreement in this conversation at all--at least from my point of view. I'm simply saying that we took a pause for a year and didn't do the whole job. You're right that the Saints didn't pause at all. But a lot of people sound ready to go back and make a push with our new young roster and I just want to use the Saints as a cautionary tale and say "hey, let's be smart one more year."

And again, last year we didn't go FULL cleanup. We did keep a couple expensive aging vets (with mixed on-field results and return-on-investment) and we cleared a bunch of space by doing void-year extensions that will create dead money. With Savage and Nixon and Nijman (smaller numbers but relevant) we DO indeed look to be moving on and taking the hit.

I want to see how they treat Kenny Clark's contract situation; how they treat Bakhtiari and Campbell; how they move in free agency. Things like that. I'm just saying we can't get too comfortable too soon and start stretching and spending again. I want another year. Yes, the Saints have done it the worst of anyone. But I'm pushing back on the general idea that I see among some fans--not necessarily anyone in particular--that it's time to make a big push and go for the gold again.

I agree we can go for the gold. But I think we should do it with extreme fiscal restraint this year.

Still gonna have a lot of dead money this year. We already are down $10M in dead cap just from the void years accelerating from Njiman, Savage, and Nixon.Thats not including what we pickup from Bak or anyone else we cut.

Even next season we eat $13.5M for Clark, $6.6M for Jones, and that doesnt include the $7M to likely cut Preston.

Gosh, I don’t get this obsession.

We gave Savage, what, like $9 million last year? Who cares if we count it on ‘23 or ‘24? We pushed some to ‘24 to keep us flexible. We ended up not needing much if all of it. We are carrying over like $9 million of cap from last year.

If we kept all Savage’s salary on last years books. Our carryover would just be $5 million less this year. Like it literally doesn’t matter at these smaller levels.

Our cap space would be the exact same either way. Just gave us the option to have flexibility in ‘23

[Pckfn23]

You're definitely right on the details and the degree. I'm not in full disagreement in this conversation at all--at least from my point of view. I'm simply saying that we took a pause for a year and didn't do the whole job. You're right that the Saints didn't pause at all. But a lot of people sound ready to go back and make a push with our new young roster and I just want to use the Saints as a cautionary tale and say "hey, let's be smart one more year."

And again, last year we didn't go FULL cleanup. We did keep a couple expensive aging vets (with mixed on-field results and return-on-investment) and we cleared a bunch of space by doing void-year extensions that will create dead money. With Savage and Nixon and Nijman (smaller numbers but relevant) we DO indeed look to be moving on and taking the hit.

I want to see how they treat Kenny Clark's contract situation; how they treat Bakhtiari and Campbell; how they move in free agency. Things like that. I'm just saying we can't get too comfortable too soon and start stretching and spending again. I want another year. Yes, the Saints have done it the worst of anyone. But I'm pushing back on the general idea that I see among some fans--not necessarily anyone in particular--that it's time to make a big push and go for the gold again.

I agree we can go for the gold. But I think we should do it with extreme fiscal restraint this year.

Still gonna have a lot of dead money this year. We already are down $10M in dead cap just from the void years accelerating from Njiman, Savage, and Nixon.Thats not including what we pickup from Bak or anyone else we cut.

Even next season we eat $13.5M for Clark, $6.6M for Jones, and that doesnt include the $7M to likely cut Preston.

Gosh, I don’t get this obsession.

We gave Savage, what, like $9 million last year? Who cares if we count it on ‘23 or ‘24? We pushed some to ‘24 to keep us flexible. We ended up not needing much if all of it. We are carrying over like $9 million of cap from last year.

If we kept all Savage’s salary on last years books. Our carryover would just be $5 million less this year. Like it literally doesn’t matter at these smaller levels.

Our cap space would be the exact same either way. Just gave us the option to have flexibility in ‘23

100% on this one. For Savage it literally doesn't matter that he has dead cap. When we picked up his 5th year option that was fully guaranteed. We either pay for it last year and don't have that carry over or we pay for it now without the carry over of an equal amount.

[Yoop]

You're definitely right on the details and the degree. I'm not in full disagreement in this conversation at all--at least from my point of view. I'm simply saying that we took a pause for a year and didn't do the whole job. You're right that the Saints didn't pause at all. But a lot of people sound ready to go back and make a push with our new young roster and I just want to use the Saints as a cautionary tale and say "hey, let's be smart one more year."

And again, last year we didn't go FULL cleanup. We did keep a couple expensive aging vets (with mixed on-field results and return-on-investment) and we cleared a bunch of space by doing void-year extensions that will create dead money. With Savage and Nixon and Nijman (smaller numbers but relevant) we DO indeed look to be moving on and taking the hit.

I want to see how they treat Kenny Clark's contract situation; how they treat Bakhtiari and Campbell; how they move in free agency. Things like that. I'm just saying we can't get too comfortable too soon and start stretching and spending again. I want another year. Yes, the Saints have done it the worst of anyone. But I'm pushing back on the general idea that I see among some fans--not necessarily anyone in particular--that it's time to make a big push and go for the gold again.

I agree we can go for the gold. But I think we should do it with extreme fiscal restraint this year.

Still gonna have a lot of dead money this year. We already are down $10M in dead cap just from the void years accelerating from Njiman, Savage, and Nixon.Thats not including what we pickup from Bak or anyone else we cut.

Even next season we eat $13.5M for Clark, $6.6M for Jones, and that doesnt include the $7M to likely cut Preston.

Gosh, I don’t get this obsession.

We gave Savage, what, like $9 million last year? Who cares if we count it on ‘23 or ‘24? We pushed some to ‘24 to keep us flexible. We ended up not needing much if all of it. We are carrying over like $9 million of cap from last year.

If we kept all Savage’s salary on last years books. Our carryover would just be $5 million less this year. Like it literally doesn’t matter at these smaller levels.

Our cap space would be the exact same either way. Just gave us the option to have flexibility in ‘23

Where going to kick Aaron Jones money forward this year, I would guess most teams have to do what we've had to in order to attempt a run, I don't think our window ( I hate that phrase) closed with the QB change, or the rebuild of the receiver positions, or even the recent DC swap, we have a lot of talented players, and if I have to kick some money forward to add or pay a few, where's the dotted line

the combine (meat market ) opens Thursday, Lbers/D line I havn't watched any vids or read much on the players, I'am so behind on this, the combine will catch me up

[YoHoChecko]

It’s fine to kick money for a player who also remains in the team while being paid that money.

If they do something with Jones, it’ll be to extend the player, not just spread out the contract. At heart that’d be my guess.

[APB]

And again, last year we didn't go FULL cleanup...

...I agree we can go for the gold. But I think we should do it with extreme fiscal restraint this year.

I get the point you've been making in this conversation but I don't agree with your insistence on going "FULL cleanup" in order to achieve the goals of the organization. The Packers, after taking last year's financial lumps, are already in a healthy enough cap position to resume building toward a championship caliber team. Their cap debt is now manageable. We've avoided the Saints situation before it ever really manifested itself and accomplished this while also building toward the future in terms of talent acquisition. Sure, the FO needs to continue to make smart decisions but there is no need to sacrifice another year by exercising "extreme fiscal restraint" when it's an already manageable cap situation.

Again, I'm not saying Gute should go on a FA spending binge but the reality is the hard part is behind us. The next competitive window has already arrived and I'm not willing to sabotage even a year of this next championship window opportunity simply because the cap ledger still has a few "past due" accounts still on the docket.

[BF004]

Also remember the Saints gave up their first and a future first to get Marcus Davenport (bust no longer on their team) and did that weird thing where they gave a future first and future second and a bunch of stuff to Philly in like March to get an extra first.

Eagles paired two 2022 first-round picks (Nos. 16 and 19) and a 2022 sixth-round pick for a 2022 first-round pick (No. 18), a 2022 third- and seventh-round pick, a 2023 first-round pick and a 2024 second-round pick.

I would probably have to consider quit being a fan of that team if I followed them. Still hurting from that trade this year without a second. Baffling

[APB]

And it appears the Saints cap carousel continues to spin...

[Yoop]

Also remember the Saints gave up their first and a future first to get Marcus Davenport (bust no longer on their team) and did that weird thing where they gave a future first and future second and a bunch of stuff to Philly in like March to get an extra first.

Eagles paired two 2022 first-round picks (Nos. 16 and 19) and a 2022 sixth-round pick for a 2022 first-round pick (No. 18), a 2022 third- and seventh-round pick, a 2023 first-round pick and a 2024 second-round pick.

I would probably have to consider quit being a fan of that team if I followed them. Still hurting from that trade this year without a second. Baffling

you would have loved Dandy Dan Devine, lots of Packer fans where ready to hang that guy

[APB]

Also remember the Saints gave up their first and a future first to get Marcus Davenport (bust no longer on their team) and did that weird thing where they gave a future first and future second and a bunch of stuff to Philly in like March to get an extra first.

Eagles paired two 2022 first-round picks (Nos. 16 and 19) and a 2022 sixth-round pick for a 2022 first-round pick (No. 18), a 2022 third- and seventh-round pick, a 2023 first-round pick and a 2024 second-round pick.

I would probably have to consider quit being a fan of that team if I followed them. Still hurting from that trade this year without a second. Baffling

you would have loved Dandy Dan Devine, lots of Packer fans where ready to hang that guy

...along with his dog.

[Labrev]

Eagles paired two 2022 first-round picks (Nos. 16 and 19) and a 2022 sixth-round pick for a 2022 first-round pick (No. 18), a 2022 third- and seventh-round pick, a 2023 first-round pick and a 2024 second-round pick.

I would probably have to consider quit being a fan of that team if I followed them. Still hurting from that trade this year without a second. Baffling

That trade was ridiculous. They got a good player out of it, Olave, but they had way too many roster holes to make that kind of move for any position other than a QB.

They didn't even do it during the draft, they did it way before, so they had no way of knowing who was going to be there.

Yes, Saints' FO is a joke. Their management works if they have a QB but if not they are one of the worst FOs in the league.

[Pckfn23]

Also remember the Saints gave up their first and a future first to get Marcus Davenport (bust no longer on their team) and did that weird thing where they gave a future first and future second and a bunch of stuff to Philly in like March to get an extra first.



I would probably have to consider quit being a fan of that team if I followed them. Still hurting from that trade this year without a second. Baffling

you would have loved Dandy Dan Devine, lots of Packer fans where ready to hang that guy

...along with his dog.

Nah, they just shot the dog.

[Yoop]

Eagles paired two 2022 first-round picks (Nos. 16 and 19) and a 2022 sixth-round pick for a 2022 first-round pick (No. 18), a 2022 third- and seventh-round pick, a 2023 first-round pick and a 2024 second-round pick.

I would probably have to consider quit being a fan of that team if I followed them. Still hurting from that trade this year without a second. Baffling

That trade was ridiculous. They got a good player out of it, Olave, but they had way too many roster holes to make that kind of move for any position other than a QB.

They didn't even do it during the draft, they did it way before, so they had no way of knowing who was going to be there.

Yes, Saints' FO is a joke. Their management works if they have a QB but if not they are one of the worst FOs in the league.

of course they new Olave would be there, you seem to think GM's don't talk to each other or lack insider info concerning who is going to take certain players, blame Loomis all you want, the Saint where just as competitive as we've been.