Cheese Curds - News Around the League 2024

[salmar80]

The Dolphins have apparently promised DL Calais Campbell his release if the Dolphins are eliminated from the playoffs.

Any interest in the 38-year-old Metusalem? I haven't seen any Dolphins games this season, has anyone watched how he's looked?

I frankly can't see a fit, unless injury bug hits (knock on wood).

PFT:

If eliminated, the Dolphins are expected to release Calais Campbell

The Dolphins could be eliminated from playoff contention as soon as today, if both the Chargers beat the Patriots and the Broncos beat the Bengals.

If that happens — or if the Dolphins lose to the Browns on Sunday — Miami will be eliminated. And, as explained by Omar Kelly of the Miami Herald, the Dolphins are expected to release veteran defensive lineman Calais Campbell.

Campbell, who has spoken about the possibility of being released once the Dolphins are done, would go through waivers. Any other team, contender or non-contender, would have the ability to claim him for the final week of the regular season and perhaps beyond. If unclaimed, Campbell would become a free agent.

Kelly explains that the Ravens wanted to trade for Campbell before the deadline in early November, but that coach Mike McDaniel persuaded Campbell to stick around, with the understanding that he’d be released if/when the team’s playoff chances have ended.

The Ravens would presumably be on the short list to make a claim. Kelly notes that the Vikings and Lions are also expected to be interested. Also, if the goal is to win a championship, the Chiefs could be the best destination.

“My whole career I’ve been close, but no cigar,” Campbell said, via Kelly. “I want that cigar.”

[Pckfn23]

A single school or district or even area is not a trend for entire states or the nation. The school aged child population is down a decent amount over the last 20 years.

The number of kids in football is proportionally unchanged.

There was talk at the outset of the concussion research that it would kill football and loads of parents wouldn't want their kids in football. That is how it remained, just talk.

I started coaching football almost 20 years ago had have seen nothing like you described happening in WI or MN.

I don't coach, I take care of athletes, parents and coaches. They talk about it. I have friends working districts in FL, IN, WI a couple at the pro level Saints, and another UW Madison. We talk about it too. It's not just concussions, in fact that isn't talked about hardly at all by parents anymore unless their child actually has one.

it's not one district and it's not just numbers of players. Outside of some bigger programs, stands across the state were filled with football fans on a Friday night 20 years ago. Even the tiny districts with 3-400 kids in total high school enrollment. Many of them don't even have a team any more and go check out a homecoming game where 20-30 years ago was standing room only with smaller kids playing their own football games around the open spaces. Go today and see some parents a a few handfuls of students. Interest is down in many places and it's not just smaller enrollments.

We went back for a 30- year reunion on just such a night. Homecoming and it was going to decide the conference title. Beautiful night. Back in the day, we were never ever better than a .500 team. One year in 4 we had a chance to make the playoffs and lost on a 3 way tie coin flip and our stands were always packed and then some. On this night with a team that actually made it to state semi finals for first time in school history against a conference rival? if we hadn't have been having a reunion there i'm not sure the spectators would have reached 150 total across both schools. I couldn't believe it.

The big schools still bring them in with 10x's the enrollment, maybe they don't notice as much. But unless they've grown substantially, They aren't covering the losses at the rest. It doesn't have to be happening everywhere, but it is happening on more than just a limited scale.

Just for fun I did some looking to see because I have nothing to go buy other than my conversations and what I see, but it seems to back it up.

This article said we've had a 25% drop in participation from 09-19. I'd imagine that spiked even more since Covid as enrollments also had their sharpets declines then too.

https://www.wpr.org/sports/wisconsin-sa ... g-creative

According to this from 09-present, which includes covid drop offs not shown in above data, Districts have lost about 8% of enrollments over that time. But that's public school data, many of those kids went to private instead or charter. Many private still have football programs so not all enrollments lost to public schools should automatically be assumed to not participate in football because of that reason. But even if, 8% decrease, doesn't explain a 25% drop

https://www.badgerinstitute.org/numbers ... nrollment/

I already brought the numbers from last year, not 5 year old numbers:

Eleven-player football remained the most popular boys sport with the total climbing back over one million participants. The total of 1,028,761 participants marks an increase of 54,969 and 5.6 percent from the previous year. Not only did 11-player football top the one million mark, this year’s increase was the first in the sport since 2013 and only the second increase since the all-time high of 1,112,303 in 2008-09.

https://www.wissports.net/news_article/show/1282862

Also, not sure what anecdotal high school game attendance has to do with it.

Wisconsin specific.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/h ... 506771007/

[musclestang]

That article is a whole lot of word salad to soften the blow LOL. It's less. Even per your article and your quote. It's seen 2 increases in 25 years in participation vs 23 years of steady declines.

Getting near pre-pandemic levels is still BELOW numbers from 20 years ago. The trend isn't up. it's just not. My anecdote is just a small sample size. The larger samples say the same thing i've been saying. It's less.

If you want to say it's grown the past 2 years, that's fine. it has. It's almost back at a level where it was before they shut it all down for a year or 2 depending on what school you went to in the state. But it's still below where it was 20 years ago

and I used 5 year old numbers because, per your article,

There was no data collected for 2019-20 and 2020-21, and data was underreported for 2021-22.

As with all large population statistics, it takes time to sift thru them and get them close to right. and even with data that ended 5 years ago, the trend is still down. The growth thru covid and to now has not overcome that.

They use "youth football" numbers increasing. Yes they are. many more programs than there were 20 years ago. It's not even a comparison really. Most kids had zero opportunity outside of a Y program here and there until they were in 7th or 8th grade to even think about putting on a helmet. But how's that translating to middle and high school? It's not. in a few schools they're doing better than the were 10 years ago, but not better than 20. Most see a huge drop off from youth to middle school and then again from middle to high, and the numbers are less than 20 years ago.

My anecdote doesn't prove anything anymore than your articles anecdote of saying Appleton North has increased. Like I said, open enrollments and recruiting have grown some programs, while the net is still less overall. The numbers bear that out, even with your article.

Enrollment numbers stayed pretty steady for a long time with a drop of 5% from 09- now with over half of that drop occurring in the past 2 years alone.

Meanwhile, per your article,

So is Wisconsin indeed suffering the biggest decline in the nation?
Back to the initial question. If we adjust for the 8-player participants and consider 2008-09 to the most recent year of data, would a 24% drop be the biggest in the nation? No, but it's close.

That shows a drop.

And when they change their starting point from anywhere back around 09 up to the teens it still shows declines of between 13.x% up to 24%. Still not explained by enrollment drops that are 5% in that time frame.

[Pckfn23]

I didn't say the trend was up, never once...

There is not a MASSIVE or DRASTIC shift in kids not playing football whether per their parents or any other reason...

The biggest reason participation has dropped over the last 15 years? Less kids.

[Yoop]

I asked google if there is a decline of school kids trying out for football, here is the answer

yes, there has been a decline in the number of school-age children playing football:
High school football: In the 2021-2022 school year, there were fewer than a million players in 11-player high school football for the first time. This is a significant drop from the 2011-2012 season, when there were 1,095,993 participants.
Tackle football for kids ages 6 to 12: Participation in tackle football for this age group has declined 29% since 2016. From 2019 to 2022, participation fell 13%.
Flag football: Participation in flag football has increased 15%.
Some reasons for the decline include:
Safety concerns: Increased attention to the risk of head injury and brain trauma
Burnout: Burnout is a common reason for kids dropping out of youth sports. Symptoms include loss of interest, fatigue, anxiety, and decreased academic performance.

I think this is obvious for any parent with a kid in sports, or for those that go to games, a lot more two way players is what I see, course I only go to local games in the UP, a place removed from normal society

[musclestang]

There is a noticeable drop, and that's what I've been saying this whole time. You don't notice it, maybe you're at a school that happens to have people open enrolling to play football. many others it is noticeable and has been for a while even pre covid. and a 15-25% drop in participation is not mostly explained by a 5% drop in enrollment, many of which just went to private schools to play football if they wanted to anyway.

[go pak go]

I asked google if there is a decline of school kids trying out for football, here is the answer

yes, there has been a decline in the number of school-age children playing football:
High school football: In the 2021-2022 school year, there were fewer than a million players in 11-player high school football for the first time. This is a significant drop from the 2011-2012 season, when there were 1,095,993 participants.
Tackle football for kids ages 6 to 12: Participation in tackle football for this age group has declined 29% since 2016. From 2019 to 2022, participation fell 13%.
Flag football: Participation in flag football has increased 15%.
Some reasons for the decline include:
Safety concerns: Increased attention to the risk of head injury and brain trauma
Burnout: Burnout is a common reason for kids dropping out of youth sports. Symptoms include loss of interest, fatigue, anxiety, and decreased academic performance.

I think this is obvious for any parent with a kid in sports, or for those that go to games, a lot more two way players is what I see, course I only go to local games in the UP, a place removed from normal society

There is also a drop in high school students period. Expected drop of 2.5 to 3 million high school students in the next 5 to 8 years.

Birth rates are just getting lower.

[Pckfn23]

There is a noticeable drop, and that's what I've been saying this whole time. You don't notice it, maybe you're at a school that happens to have people open enrolling to play football. many others it is noticeable and has been for a while even pre covid. and a 15-25% drop in participation is not mostly explained by a 5% drop in enrollment, many of which just went to private schools to play football if they wanted to anyway.

It's a drop of 5% in enrollment compared to a drop of 7.5% in football participation since the high in 2009. It absolutely is mostly explained by less enrollment.

[musclestang]

There is a noticeable drop, and that's what I've been saying this whole time. You don't notice it, maybe you're at a school that happens to have people open enrolling to play football. many others it is noticeable and has been for a while even pre covid. and a 15-25% drop in participation is not mostly explained by a 5% drop in enrollment, many of which just went to private schools to play football if they wanted to anyway.

It's a drop of 5% in enrollment compared to a drop of 7.5% in football participation since the high in 2009. It absolutely is mostly explained by less enrollment.

Don’t forget the reported drops of 13-24% per your article. And no, I don’t think sports parents are pulling kids out to sit home at higher percentages than the rest.

[Pckfn23]

There is a noticeable drop, and that's what I've been saying this whole time. You don't notice it, maybe you're at a school that happens to have people open enrolling to play football. many others it is noticeable and has been for a while even pre covid. and a 15-25% drop in participation is not mostly explained by a 5% drop in enrollment, many of which just went to private schools to play football if they wanted to anyway.

It's a drop of 5% in enrollment compared to a drop of 7.5% in football participation since the high in 2009. It absolutely is mostly explained by less enrollment.

Don’t forget the reported drops of 13-24% per your article. And no, I don’t think sports parents are pulling kids out to sit home at higher percentages than the rest.

1,028,761 participants in 2023.
1,112,303 participants in 2008-09, the all time high.

Why would we use 13-24%?

[Yoop]

I asked google if there is a decline of school kids trying out for football, here is the answer

yes, there has been a decline in the number of school-age children playing football:
High school football: In the 2021-2022 school year, there were fewer than a million players in 11-player high school football for the first time. This is a significant drop from the 2011-2012 season, when there were 1,095,993 participants.
Tackle football for kids ages 6 to 12: Participation in tackle football for this age group has declined 29% since 2016. From 2019 to 2022, participation fell 13%.
Flag football: Participation in flag football has increased 15%.
Some reasons for the decline include:
Safety concerns: Increased attention to the risk of head injury and brain trauma
Burnout: Burnout is a common reason for kids dropping out of youth sports. Symptoms include loss of interest, fatigue, anxiety, and decreased academic performance.

I think this is obvious for any parent with a kid in sports, or for those that go to games, a lot more two way players is what I see, course I only go to local games in the UP, a place removed from normal society

There is also a drop in high school students period. Expected drop of 2.5 to 3 million high school students in the next 5 to 8 years.

Birth rates are just getting lower.

all true, in fact, several UP schools in this area have now closed and kids have been rerouted to bigger schools in close proximity, still I believe we are seeing a decline in football participation do to the health risks associated with the sport, parents know the risks very well, practically every season here in the yoop we read of a terrible sports related injury, or a death somewhere in the country, there are actual dangers playing this game

[musclestang]

It's a drop of 5% in enrollment compared to a drop of 7.5% in football participation since the high in 2009. It absolutely is mostly explained by less enrollment.

Don’t forget the reported drops of 13-24% per your article. And no, I don’t think sports parents are pulling kids out to sit home at higher percentages than the rest.

1,028,761 participants in 2023.
1,112,303 participants in 2008-09, the all time high.

Why would we use 13-24%?

Ask the author of the article you posted?

[go pak go]

I asked google if there is a decline of school kids trying out for football, here is the answer

yes, there has been a decline in the number of school-age children playing football:
High school football: In the 2021-2022 school year, there were fewer than a million players in 11-player high school football for the first time. This is a significant drop from the 2011-2012 season, when there were 1,095,993 participants.
Tackle football for kids ages 6 to 12: Participation in tackle football for this age group has declined 29% since 2016. From 2019 to 2022, participation fell 13%.
Flag football: Participation in flag football has increased 15%.
Some reasons for the decline include:
Safety concerns: Increased attention to the risk of head injury and brain trauma
Burnout: Burnout is a common reason for kids dropping out of youth sports. Symptoms include loss of interest, fatigue, anxiety, and decreased academic performance.

I think this is obvious for any parent with a kid in sports, or for those that go to games, a lot more two way players is what I see, course I only go to local games in the UP, a place removed from normal society

There is also a drop in high school students period. Expected drop of 2.5 to 3 million high school students in the next 5 to 8 years.

Birth rates are just getting lower.

all true, in fact, several UP schools in this area have now closed and kids have been rerouted to bigger schools in close proximity, still I believe we are seeing a decline in football participation do to the health risks associated with the sport, parents know the risks very well, practically every season here in the yoop we read of a terrible sports related injury, or a death somewhere in the country, there are actual dangers playing this game

Absolutely. I think the decline in participation is due to both health and population decline.

[Pckfn23]

Don’t forget the reported drops of 13-24% per your article. And no, I don’t think sports parents are pulling kids out to sit home at higher percentages than the rest.

1,028,761 participants in 2023.
1,112,303 participants in 2008-09, the all time high.

Why would we use 13-24%?

Ask the author of the article you posted?

Might want to reread the article and sort out that word salad.

And that article is WI specific as I stated. Nationwide it is 7.5% from the high in 2009.

[musclestang]

I did read it. YOu have exactly 2 data points in 25 years that show any increase in participation. You're using the very last one to support your position.

The difference in enrollments and participation isn't a 1:1. I do not believe for a second parents and students who are athletes, and particularly football players are moving to home or charter schools at a higher percentage than average or non athlete students. If you believe that, that is fine, I don't.

and the trend is still downwards. 2 data points showing an increase vs. 23 showing the opposite in 25 years doesn't show a trend. I don't need to digest any more word salad.

[Pckfn23]

I did read it. YOu have exactly 2 data points in 25 years that show any increase in participation. You're using the very last one to support your position.

The difference in enrollments and participation isn't a 1:1. I do not believe for a second parents and students who are athletes, and particularly football players are moving to home or charter schools at a higher percentage than average or non athlete students. If you believe that, that is fine, I don't.

and the trend is still downwards. 2 data points showing an increase vs. 23 showing the opposite in 25 years doesn't show a trend. I don't need to digest any more word salad.

Why wouldn't we use the high in participation compared to the last year we have data? Cherry picking random years in between is pointless.

Your 2nd paragraph doesn't make sense to the discussion. Talk about word salad... Public, private, home schooling didn't even factor in. Simply child populations are declining. 5% drop in enrollment compared to 7.5% drop in football participation. Pretty easy to see what the major factor is in drop in football participation.

I also don't discount that there are kids not participating because of the injury risk. However, I don't believe that to be massive or even to have changed participation particularly significantly.

[musclestang]

I did read it. YOu have exactly 2 data points in 25 years that show any increase in participation. You're using the very last one to support your position.

The difference in enrollments and participation isn't a 1:1. I do not believe for a second parents and students who are athletes, and particularly football players are moving to home or charter schools at a higher percentage than average or non athlete students. If you believe that, that is fine, I don't.

and the trend is still downwards. 2 data points showing an increase vs. 23 showing the opposite in 25 years doesn't show a trend. I don't need to digest any more word salad.

Why wouldn't we use the high in participation comapred to the last year we have data? Cherry picking random years in between is pointless.

Your 2nd paragraph doesn't make sense to the discussion. Talk about word salad...

5% drop in enrollment compared to 7.5% drop in football participation. Pretty easy to see what the major factor is in drop in football participation.

Because you had a "high" in 2009 and an "increase" in 2016 or 17 i'm not going back to read and an "increase" last year. The rest were decreases. You have 2 data points that don't prove a trend in fact you have 23-2 showing the opposite. That is a trend in my book, but to each his own. Each year after 16 or 17 decreased until last. Greatest predictor of future events is past performance. I'm not cherry picking any years, i'm using all of them.

and even if we want to call last years numbers the "trend" they are still DOWN. which is my point. and no it is not just due to decreasing enrollments.

and you now want to use national numbers because it's a smaller decrease than the WI numbers because that shows much larger decreases. But you said you've never seen in it here, it wasn't happening. I have, the numbers bear it out. 13+-24% decrease in participation. Yes the national decrease is smaller than WI. It's still down from 20 years ago

Athletes aren't leaving public school enrollments to study at home. My 2nd paragraph does fit with the discussion. in your 5% enrollment drop, you have kids that leave public schools for private, charter, or home school overwhelmingly. I don't believe most of those are athletes, or even a big percentage at all. Most athletes and parent's of athletes are keeping their kids where they can play. and in this state where we've had 13+-24% drop in participation, private schools still play in WIAA now and are counted.

I can't show you who's leaving public schools and neither can you. I feel I have sound reasoning to believe most of the kids leaving are not athletes.

I guess I have nothing left to say that I haven't said 10 times already LOL. I'm out.

[Pckfn23]

I have been using national numbers this entire time and I have never once said participation increasing...

[musclestang]

Ok, one more then I’m really done for real

You told me it wasn’t happening in WI and MN when I gave my experience and observations. In your 20 years of coaching what I saw was wrong you told me in WI

YOU then posted an article from the journal sentinel I think telling me how I was wrong in WI and also posted a link with WI specific numbers.

They supported exacrly what I had observed and said.

[Pckfn23]

Ok, one more then I’m really done for real

You told me it wasn’t happening in WI and MN when I gave my experience and observations. In your 20 years of coaching what I saw was wrong you told me in WI

YOU then posted an article from the journal sentinel I think telling me how I was wrong in WI and also posted a link with WI specific numbers.

They supported exacrly what I had observed and said.

Let's deal in the reality of the situation. This is what you said:

In that time I’ve seen a drastic shift in parents who want their kids to play football. I’ve also seen a massive shift in parents who will and have forbade their kids from playing football.

This is what I said:

I started coaching football almost 20 years ago had have seen nothing like you described happening in WI or MN.

I also never posted a link and told you how you were wrong in WI about any WI numbers for enrollment or football participation.

I posted a link detailing enrollment and football participation in WI as an aside. This it was at the very end of my post and was simply prefaced as, 'Wisconsin specific."

Since the VERY beginning I have used the national numbers and was dealing with the national numbers. Dealing with specific states or areas or cities can muddy the numbers since we are talking about school aged children population in conjunction with football participation. Natural migration of the US population away or toward some states can skew numbers especially when we are dealing with football participation as a whole.