2025 NFL Draft - Football Thread

[Labrev]

If we were to get a big, tall receiver with the speed to stretch the field at 23, we'd all agree that that pick would be a homerun, right?

Add in, this receiver can line up virtually anywhere on offense: out wide, slot, even in-line or as a wing back. No problem, even better! Except, if I told you the receiver in question is technically a TE and not a true WR, then the exact same folks on board with this would lose their minds.

If it were not obvious what I am getting at here... Colston Loveland at 23 is a good pick, actually. Change my mind! >=D

[lupedafiasco]

If we were to get a big, tall receiver with the speed to stretch the field at 23, we'd all agree that that pick would be a homerun, right?

Add in, this receiver can line up virtually anywhere on offense: out wide, slot, even in-line or as a wing back. No problem, even better! Except, if I told you the receiver in question is technically a TE and not a true WR, then the exact same folks on board with this would lose their minds.

If it were not obvious what I am getting at here... Colston Loveland at 23 is a good pick, actually. Change my mind! >=D

This would be a very realistic scenario I think. Typically when we are pushing for a championship and are pretty strong at a position Gutenbumst goes and wastes his pick i.e. Jordan Love, Rash Gary, Jordan Morgan, LVN.

I could definitely see him going to the podium and taking a TE that would sit the bench two years while Kraft and Musgraves contracts expire before getting any value from the 1st round pick contract.

[NCF]

If it were not obvious what I am getting at here... Colston Loveland at 23 is a good pick, actually. Change my mind! >=D

I have looked at these in the past, but the other way around. I thought Devin Funchess was going to be the next big thing at TE. Then, same exact thing with Chase Claypool. Similar thing when we had the glaring hole at S. I love a good CB to S convert. The Packers appear to have absolutely no appetite for this, however. I do think there is probably a ton of finesse missing from Loveland's bag that would make him a worthy WR at that slot. I don't intend to change your mind, you keep dreaming!! I just don't think the Packers will make those dreams a reality.

[Yoop]

If we were to get a big, tall receiver with the speed to stretch the field at 23, we'd all agree that that pick would be a homerun, right?

Add in, this receiver can line up virtually anywhere on offense: out wide, slot, even in-line or as a wing back. No problem, even better! Except, if I told you the receiver in question is technically a TE and not a true WR, then the exact same folks on board with this would lose their minds.

If it were not obvious what I am getting at here... Colston Loveland at 23 is a good pick, actually. Change my mind! >=D

cept he's not fast, and he is a TE, we just loaded that room 2 years ago, and Lafleur could have used Kraft more last year, so ya have to prioritize that position to warrant such a high pick, and Lafleur actually hasn't, plus we have a field stretching TE in Musgrave do back, right now I think your the only Huddler on board with this, it's not as though Loveland is some dark horse secret, and he's not fast enough to use as a receiver.

minus Kraft and Musgrave and it could be a consideration.

[BF004]

[Labrev]

If it were not obvious what I am getting at here... Colston Loveland at 23 is a good pick, actually. Change my mind! >=D

I have looked at these in the past, but the other way around. I thought Devin Funchess was going to be the next big thing at TE. Then, same exact thing with Chase Claypool. Similar thing when we had the glaring hole at S. I love a good CB to S convert. The Packers appear to have absolutely no appetite for this, however. I do think there is probably a ton of finesse missing from Loveland's bag that would make him a worthy WR at that slot. I don't intend to change your mind, you keep dreaming!! I just don't think the Packers will make those dreams a reality.

I don't mean a conversion to WR, more the idea that by adding a TE, you are getting help in the passing game, as TEs are receivers/pass-catchers by definition.

What's all this about how we "have" Musgrave? I heard the same thing last year when I floated Brock Bowers with our 1st. I didn't buy it then, and after last year, it sounds even more ridiculous. We have exactly nothing in Luke Musgrave. He has missed a lot of time with injury (an issue with him going back to college), but more concerning is that when he *is* available, he is not a big part of the offense at all, as one would think that a player with his raw talent would be. I don't buy that MLF has just been forgetting to use him. We played Fitzpatrick a lot at TE2, and Sims got on the field a lot last year as a UDFA rook. My gut says this is a lack of trust and/or Doghouse situation.

But whatever the case, am I supposed to Bowers's great rookie year with a putrid LV team would not have happened here, or Loveland will not similarly produce, not for want of talent, but because Musgrave would keep them on the bench? Yeah right. MLF would probably pencil Loveland in at TE2 on Day 1. And run a lot more 12 personnel, which would basically make TE2 a starter.

And if Musgrave does happen to get it together, great. Now if your dynamic move-TE goes down with injury, you don't lose that element of your offense. Injuries happen, especially at physical positions (and if you're Luke Musgrave). You could probably even run plays out of formations with all three of them on the field. I'm not saying he can't still pan out, just that I am not refusing to add star talent there because I am counting on it. There is no rational reason to count on it.

[Labrev]

Also (#HotTake maybe): based on last year's performance, we do not have any "needs" going into this draft other than for more firepower/weapons in the passing game.

By that I mean, if all stays the same as last year, everything else is good enough to win with, except our passing game; what did us in was the inability to score points. This defense kept the offensive juggernaut Philly to 22. Your offense has to go win that game.

Obviously, we can't count on everything staying the same, so we need to add to the rest of the roster, too. But if an aspect of the team was sub-par last year, then rationally, that area needs more help than the others to become satisfactory.

[NCF]

Also (#HotTake maybe): based on last year's performance, we do not have any "needs" going into this draft other than for more firepower/weapons in the passing game.

By that I mean, if all stays the same as last year, everything else is good enough to win with, except our passing game; what did us in was the inability to score points. This defense kept the offensive juggernaut Philly to 22. Your offense has to go win that game.

Obviously, we can't count on everything staying the same, so we need to add to the rest of the roster, too. But if an aspect of the team was sub-par last year, then rationally, that area needs more help than the others to become satisfactory.

I think our OL did us in more than our lack of weapons. In both cases, though, those groups were decimated by injuries.

[NCF]

I was watching Ohio State last year and a player jumped out. A man among boys. I looked him up and it was Tyleik Williams. I’m really hoping the Packers can nab him. I don’t understand why he is not a top 20 pick.

I get it. They say he takes plays off and disappears sometimes but this guy is a monster. I read he was 360lbs as a freshman and got himself into shape at 327lbs. There is no reason not to believe that when he becomes a pro that he’ll up his game again at the next level.

There are not too many times a player jumps off the screen where I want to look up his name by his number.

I guess I can hope.

[NCF]

[Yoop]

What's all this about how we "have" Musgrave? I heard the same thing last year when I floated Brock Bowers with our 1st. I didn't buy it then, and after last year, it sounds even more ridiculous. We have exactly nothing in Luke Musgrave. He has missed a lot of time with injury (an issue with him going back to college), but more concerning is that when he *is* available, he is not a big part of the offense at all, as one would think that a player with his raw talent would be. I don't buy that MLF has just been forgetting to use him. We played Fitzpatrick a lot at TE2, and Sims got on the field a lot last year as a UDFA rook. My gut says this is a lack of trust and/or Doghouse situation.

Sims got 5 targets, Fitsgerald 1, Musgrave was only available for 7 games, was targeted 10 times and caught 7, Kraft was targeted 70 times and caught 50 for 700 plus yrds, neither Sims or Fitzgerald inspired Lafluer to use more 22 package, and Musgrave it seems to me was not fully recovered, and why he wasn't used more, most TE's take 2 or 3 years to hit there ceiling, your writing off Musgrave and only has lack of playing time against him,

I wanted Kincaid 2 years ago in the Musgrave Kraft draft, Laporta was an instant success, again you have to have a plan to get 1st year success like he had, so it's not just the talent, schemes matter, lets see what Lafluer does with it.

also every thing turn to &%$@ when Love was hurt, and just because he was playing again 3 weeks later, it was obvious to me he was still hampered from that injury, now we can blame any number of things that went sour, it wasn't just receivers dropping passes, blocking sucked at times, wrong routes were run.
It's a toss-up. We need a better pass rush and certainly a better passing production, and some rookie TE isn't the answer to that.

[lupedafiasco]

One of my late round favorites. Reminds me of Walker. Just a super experienced OT with the size and athleticism you want.

[Labrev]

Sims got 5 targets, Fitsgerald 1, Musgrave was only available for 7 games, was targeted 10 times and caught 7, Kraft was targeted 70 times and caught 50 for 700 plus yrds, neither Sims or Fitzgerald inspired Lafluer to use more 22 package, and Musgrave it seems to me was not fully recovered, and why he wasn't used more, most TE's take 2 or 3 years to hit there ceiling, your writing off Musgrave and only has lack of playing time against him,

If he was not fully recovered, they would not have brought him back. It's not like he's a core part of the offense that they would have felt a need to rush him back too soon.

Also, Musgrave was not hurt at the beginning of the year; the injury was in like Week 3 or something. Yet even before he was injured, his use in our offense was minimal. What's the explanation there?

And as for the injury, that is exactly why I am not counting on him to produce. Injuries have been an issue for him since college.

I am not "writing off" Musgrave in the sense of saying there is no way he can pan out. I never said that, never implied it, and I recognize he can still pan out. I am simply not counting on it happening, because he has not proven anything as pro. I can say that Kraft has proven we don't need a TE1 because he has actually produced, and my bar isn't that high to be satisfied to say that (some folks are not convinced by one full season of production, but I will accept it). But no, Musgrave has not proven we don't have room for another TE with star talent; he has not actually produced enough to say so.

It's a toss-up. We need a better pass rush and certainly a better passing production, and some rookie TE isn't the answer to that.

A TE with high-end receiving skills undeniably helps improve the passing game.

The difference between a tall, athletic field-stretcher at WR versus the same at TE is a complete distinction-without-a-difference.

In fact (UH OH, YOOP!!) as I recall, you argued that Mahomes had more help than Rodgers even though Adams is far more statistically productive than Kelce as a #1/go-to receiving target, why? Because --you said-- that a star TE is more valuable than a star WR!


EXHIBIT A, ladies and gentlemen:

you should realize just how valuable a great TE is to boosting production for an offense, but then since we haven't had one in your lifetime, you are forgiven for your ignorance. Kelce for KC does more than most any receiver could, add another big TE and now you have 1/3 of offensive line type blockers clearing run lanes

[Yoop]

Sims got 5 targets, Fitsgerald 1, Musgrave was only available for 7 games, was targeted 10 times and caught 7, Kraft was targeted 70 times and caught 50 for 700 plus yrds, neither Sims or Fitzgerald inspired Lafluer to use more 22 package, and Musgrave it seems to me was not fully recovered, and why he wasn't used more, most TE's take 2 or 3 years to hit there ceiling, your writing off Musgrave and only has lack of playing time against him,

If he was not fully recovered, they would not have brought him back. It's not like he's a core part of the offense that they would have felt a need to rush him back too soon.

Also, Musgrave was not hurt at the beginning of the year; the injury was in like Week 3 or something. Yet even before he was injured, his use in our offense was minimal. What's the explanation there?

And as for the injury, that is exactly why I am not counting on him to produce. Injuries have been an issue for him since college.

I am not "writing off" Musgrave in the sense of saying there is no way he can pan out. I never said that, never implied it, and I recognize he can still pan out. I am simply not counting on it happening, because he has not proven anything as pro. I can say that Kraft has proven we don't need a TE1 because he has actually produced, and my bar isn't that high to be satisfied to say that (some folks are not convinced by one full season of production, but I will accept it). But no, Musgrave has not proven we don't have room for another TE with star talent; he has not actually produced enough to say so.

It's a toss-up. We need a better pass rush and certainly a better passing production, and some rookie TE isn't the answer to that.

A TE with high-end receiving skills undeniably helps improve the passing game.

The difference between a tall, athletic field-stretcher at WR versus the same at TE is a complete distinction-without-a-difference.

In fact (UH OH, YOOP!!) as I recall, you argued that Mahomes had more help than Rodgers even though Adams is far more statistically productive than Kelce as a #1/go-to receiving target, why? Because --you said-- that a star TE is more valuable than a star WR!


EXHIBIT A, ladies and gentlemen:

you should realize just how valuable a great TE is to boosting production for an offense, but then since we haven't had one in your lifetime, you are forgiven for your ignorance. Kelce for KC does more than most any receiver could, add another big TE and now you have 1/3 of offensive line type blockers clearing run lanes

again, while you seem to think Musgrave is a dud, I don't, and still think a healthy Musgrave would stimulate more 22 package, KC, SF, Buffalo, teams were TE's get a 1000 yrds a season have offenses built to exact that production, back when McCarthy had Finley he set up his passing schemes to target Finley, when Finley was hurt early that year McCarthy had to redo his passing schemes, my point is that it is easier to scheme up for receivers than it is TE's because a team usually has more depth at WR, and if we would have targeted Kraft more, or any TE, it comes at the expense of the receivers, only so many passes per game.

mostly I favor pass rush in this draft, I have more faith that Musgrave will produce this season then I do LVN, so I do admit to being cold when it comes to another TE, so that would be my choice, then I might trade back up in round two for Higgens, or sit pat for one of the other XY prospects.

best way to improve coverage is pass rush, best way to win is to stop the opposing QB, these seem absolutes in this era, even though were seeing more balance of run to pass, that ILB/OLB WAlker will be rich shortly, wouldn't surprize me at all to see him go top 12 or so, with more run, more emphasis on containment, real hard to think both for a DE, do I pin it and blast at the snap, or do I make sure it's not a run??? so IMHO we are going to see a lot more line wackery, and Walker looks like a wacker to me, as well as edge rusher

[Yoop]

This is from Packer Wire, a good article on edge rushers Guty likes, high hurry numbers, and doesn't seem to worry about sack totals, which has always been my leaning. The thing is though, at some point they need to get to the finish line

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/article/bu ... 44742.html

[lupedafiasco]

Realistically even the best pass rushers are barely getting over a sack a game. Finishing sacks is great and they are huge plays but what you really want is consistency getting hurries and pressures quickly and wary in the down. Getting a pressure or a hurry past 2.5 seconds in useless.

We just don’t really have that guy who can beat a lineman quickly and cleanly that’s going to force the QB to dirt the ball or throw it before the WR is ready. Gary is a hustle guy. Clark is old. Wyatt is about the best we got to do it an he’s inconsistent and getting old (good move drafting a 24 year old). LVN just doesn’t win wary or late so far.

We need someone whether that’s inside or outside that can affect the passer early in the down.

[go pak go]

Realistically even the best pass rushers are barely getting over a sack a game. Finishing sacks is great and they are huge plays but what you really want is consistency getting hurries and pressures quickly and wary in the down. Getting a pressure or a hurry past 2.5 seconds in useless.

We just don’t really have that guy who can beat a lineman quickly and cleanly that’s going to force the QB to dirt the ball or throw it before the WR is ready. Gary is a hustle guy. Clark is old. Wyatt is about the best we got to do it an he’s inconsistent and getting old (good move drafting a 24 year old). LVN just doesn’t win wary or late so far.

We need someone whether that’s inside or outside that can affect the passer early in the down.

Yup.

Consistent pressure and the ability to make a sack on third and long when you know it's a pass.

There is just so much energy when it's third and long and you know guys like Bosa, Gary in 2021, Jared Allen, Clay Matthews, etc. are going to get the sack to get off the field.

[Labrev]

For which reason, I am way more in favor of adding interior DL with good pass-rushing skill or off-ball LBs that blitz well over DE/EDGE types. Give me a Derrick Harmon, Walter Nolen, or heck even the UCLA LB in Round 2 over these slow-burn rushers like Jackson, Ezeiraku, Sawyer, etc. I do like Kyle Kennard and Princely, but I question how much value we get from more slow-burn rush guys like that; it's just kind of redundant with the guys we have e.g. Gary, LVN, Cox, etc. We need guys that win and disrupt more quickly.

The one exception being DE/EDGE guys who have crazy speed and explosion off the edge, like in the mold of a Von Miller or KGB. But I feel like the 4-3 scheme we now run (actually more like 4-2, because Nickel is the real base defense now) is less favorable to those types of players than the 3-4.

[Yoop]

Realistically even the best pass rushers are barely getting over a sack a game. Finishing sacks is great and they are huge plays but what you really want is consistency getting hurries and pressures quickly and wary in the down. Getting a pressure or a hurry past 2.5 seconds in useless.

We just don’t really have that guy who can beat a lineman quickly and cleanly that’s going to force the QB to dirt the ball or throw it before the WR is ready. Gary is a hustle guy. Clark is old. Wyatt is about the best we got to do it an he’s inconsistent and getting old (good move drafting a 24 year old). LVN just doesn’t win wary or late so far.

We need someone whether that’s inside or outside that can affect the passer early in the down.

tend to agree, I always want to know total pressures as well as sack count, and last season our pressure totals were not good, I get all the angst we've had stopping the run, IMHO that's magnified when off ball lbers fail to fill there gaps, as the article points out pressure counts from college matter to Guty when drafting pass rushers, the problem is they haven't been a staple for these guys now in the pro's, Gary had one very good total pressure season.

[Yoop]

If we were to get a big, tall receiver with the speed to stretch the field at 23, we'd all agree that that pick would be a homerun, right?

Add in, this receiver can line up virtually anywhere on offense: out wide, slot, even in-line or as a wing back. No problem, even better! Except, if I told you the receiver in question is technically a TE and not a true WR, then the exact same folks on board with this would lose their minds.

If it were not obvious what I am getting at here... Colston Loveland at 23 is a good pick, actually. Change my mind! >=D

After further review, I owe you an apology , just saw a mock with the Jets taking Colston at slot #7, I just haven't even considered a TE, so obviously no investigation into the prospects, but your points are valid with Colston

again though, we just invested two pretty high picks into the position, Kraft did his part, Musgrave was mostly injured, and IMHO Lafluer could have schemed up more production from Kraft, however we hear him talk all the time about involving everyone into the offense, versus throwing to 1 guy 150 times a year as we had to (according to stats, and departed QB ) with Adams, at some point ya end up hearing more Doubs complaints, and players complaining about under usage, Musgrave was a 2nd round pick, that alone gives me faith that he'll go to the pro bowl soon again, typically TE is a 2 or 3 year learning curve, so if a player losses year 2, I consider it a bigger set back, then some other position.

ever sense the Gronk and Hernandez duo struck fear in opposing defenses for NE, I wanted to see such a duo in GB, we had Lacy at his best, a big 22 package like that would be hard to stop.

would be now with Jacobs too, but if this mock is even border line real, Colston will be long gone anyway, if not I could live with it.