2025 NFL Draft - Football Thread

[Yoop]

everyone is so worried about stopping the run?????

As it should be. Stopping the run is fundamental to good defense.

Pettine and Barry did not get that, and that's why they were trash. They obsessed over stopping the pass due to the trends in the league, but then we would get beaten by guys like Kenny Pickett at QB.

Because when you get gashed in the run, it makes the QB's job so easy that it totally negates what you have in coverage and pass-rush. You can convert on 2nd and 3rd down with quick high-percentage passes.

Thankfully, Hafley seems to get that.

Better tackling is what we got last year which is why our run stopping ability improved, both Gary and LVN had about the same totals as the previous year and the year prior to that, we are so enamored with size, and it really hasn't changed stopping the run, and our pass rush has declined, unless we increased off ball production.

I think it was more than just better tackling. Haf got our DEs to play with much better discipline in setting the edge. That was a huge change from when Barry was DC.

Rashan Gary was actually among the best DEs against the run. That matters, run stops help put the opposing offense in a hole just as sacks do. Also, easier to get pressure from down-and-distance than 2nd- or 3rd-and-short.

(It's notable btw that Gary got his first ProBowl nod this past season too, probably thanks to peers and coaches recognizing how he shored up the one aspect of his game that was subpar, because he didn't have the highlight plays to drive fan support).

we dedicated to stopping the run for the first 10 games, what actually changed was better off ball production accomplishing it, and it ruined our pass rush productuion during that period, don't take my word for it read some stats, you'll see that Gary tackle production barely varied year after year except 2022 when he only played 9 games.

2020 he had 35 tackles 2nd lowest, 21 he had 47 tackles and 47 pressures, 2022 only nine games he had 32 tackles 17 pressures, 2023 44 Tackles and 30 pressures, 2024 47 tackles 26 pressures.

I have no idea why he got a PB bid, likely others declined to go, either way, it was not his best season

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... vanced.htm

and there are more ways to contain the edge against the run then have your DE sit there like statues, again ya can't do both, contain the edge and also rush the QB effectively, and that was plainly obvious for the first part of last season

[Labrev]

we dedicated to stopping the run for the first 10 games, what actually changed was better off ball production accomplishing it, and it ruined our pass rush productuion during that period, don't take my word for it read some stats,

Well, I will bring the stats that prove my point: see below.

Will you do the same for yours? Or will you do the usual "Go look it up! It's totally there--trust me, bro!" -?

you'll see that Gary tackle production barely varied year after year except 2022 when he only played 9 games.

2020 he had 35 tackles 2nd lowest, 21 he had 47 tackles and 47 pressures, 2022 only nine games he had 32 tackles 17 pressures, 2023 44 Tackles and 30 pressures, 2024 47 tackles 26 pressures.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... vanced.htm

Tackle production obviously does not indicate how good you are at stopping the run.

Let's use our brain for a second here: if Player A makes 30 tackles against the run for no gain, and Player B makes 40 tackles against runs that result in a ten-yard gain, are we going to say they were equally effective against the run due to their tackle numbers being the same?

Or if Player B got 10 more tackles than Player A but those extra ten went for the same distance, was he a better run defender due to having more tackles?

No, Player A was obviously better against the run in both instances.

Anyway, here are the run-stop win rate stats. Yes, he was literally the best in the league at stopping the run:

Rank Name Team Wins Plays RSWR Edge%
1 Rashan Gary GB 63 170 37% 19%
2 Maxx Crosby LV 90 244 37% 14%
3 Jadeveon Clowney CAR 63 194 32% 11%
4 Jonathan Greenard MIN 66 206 32% 9%
5 Carl Granderson NO 62 194 32% 12%
6 Jared Verse LA 78 247 32% 13%
7 Isaiah McGuire CLE 54 172 31% 19%
8 Chauncey Golston DAL 58 188 31% 19%
9 Travon Walker JAX 74 249 30% 14%
10 Nick Bosa SF 64 217 29% 13%

I have no idea why he got a PB bid, likely others declined to go, either way, it was not his best season

I would say that a down-lineman with elite production against the run and decent production against the pass is deserving of a ProBowl.

It was probably his best season as an all-around player. He had more productive years as a pass-rusher but he was decent at it last year, and then his run defense was in-fact elite.

and there are more ways to contain the edge against the run then have your DE sit there like statues, again ya can't do both, contain the edge and also rush the QB effectively, and that was plainly obvious for the first part of last season

There is no dilemma. You set the edge against the run, and get after the ball in the pass.

The one situation that might give you pause is if the QB can hurt you with his legs, then maybe you also contain against him in the pass, too. That seemed to be the case early in the year when we faced Hurts, Richardson, etc.

Other than that, there is no conflict.

[Yoop]

we dedicated to stopping the run for the first 10 games, what actually changed was better off ball production accomplishing it, and it ruined our pass rush productuion during that period, don't take my word for it read some stats,

Well, I will bring the stats that prove my point: see below.

Will you do the same for yours? Or will you do the usual "Go look it up! It's totally there--trust me, bro!" -?

you'll see that Gary tackle production barely varied year after year except 2022 when he only played 9 games.

2020 he had 35 tackles 2nd lowest, 21 he had 47 tackles and 47 pressures, 2022 only nine games he had 32 tackles 17 pressures, 2023 44 Tackles and 30 pressures, 2024 47 tackles 26 pressures.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... vanced.htm

Tackle production obviously does not indicate how good you are at stopping the run.

Let's use our brain for a second here: if Player A makes 30 tackles against the run for no gain, and Player B makes 40 tackles against runs that result in a ten-yard gain, are we going to say they were equally effective against the run due to their tackle numbers being the same?

Or if Player B got 10 more tackles than Player A but those extra ten went for the same distance, was he a better run defender due to having more tackles?

No, Player A was obviously better against the run in both instances.

Anyway, here are the run-stop win rate stats. Yes, he was literally the best in the league at stopping the run:

Rank Name Team Wins Plays RSWR Edge%
1 Rashan Gary GB 63 170 37% 19%
2 Maxx Crosby LV 90 244 37% 14%
3 Jadeveon Clowney CAR 63 194 32% 11%
4 Jonathan Greenard MIN 66 206 32% 9%
5 Carl Granderson NO 62 194 32% 12%
6 Jared Verse LA 78 247 32% 13%
7 Isaiah McGuire CLE 54 172 31% 19%
8 Chauncey Golston DAL 58 188 31% 19%
9 Travon Walker JAX 74 249 30% 14%
10 Nick Bosa SF 64 217 29% 13%

I have no idea why he got a PB bid, likely others declined to go, either way, it was not his best season

I would say that a down-lineman with elite production against the run and decent production against the pass is deserving of a ProBowl.

It was probably his best season as an all-around player. He had more productive years as a pass-rusher but he was decent at it last year, and then his run defense was in-fact elite.

and there are more ways to contain the edge against the run then have your DE sit there like statues, again ya can't do both, contain the edge and also rush the QB effectively, and that was plainly obvious for the first part of last season

There is no dilemma. You set the edge against the run, and get after the ball in the pass.

The one situation that might give you pause is if the QB can hurt you with his legs, then maybe you also contain against him in the pass, too. That seemed to be the case early in the year when we faced Hurts, Richardson, etc.

Other than that, there is no conflict.

what you say and what I saw don't add up, we did edge contain first and foremost for 2/3rds of the season, set the edge on pure run downs, OK, otherwise get after the QB, RSWR does not impress me for A DE, and it surely is not why GM's draft em, you can find those guys in every round, pass rush is what ya want from the edge, again use a off ball DB or lber to do that stuff, off man coverage allows your CB to do it.

we did well defending the run last year, and imho didn't have much to do with edge containment, just my opinion.

I think if Harman or Nolen are still available Gute will take him, it's a need, and possible necessity if we should decide not to extend Wyatt, or Kenny continues to struggle.

[BF004]

Gotta say I do like Tet McMillian a decent amount. Isn't my usual cup of tea I like at WR. But I do really really think he's the exact kind of WR Gutenkunst likes and I do think a really good fit for Love.

Huge target, Great hands, big hands, great ball tracking, for maybe the less than perfectly accurate quarterback. Big, tall, strong, fast, all Gute.

Didn't think he was in the realm of possibilities, but Gute at his workout, or proday, or whatever, in to Lambeau for a visit. I think there's a chance.


And if you think about it, we are okay'ish at corner, all we lost from last year (who played) was Eric Stokes, but we upgraded there. Could really use a great edge passrusher, but even year 1 is a minimal impact. DT doesn't necessarily need a body this year to help you and a rookie most likely wouldn't. You'll want to add one, but doesn't need to be right away You talk about a position you could target in the draft that will help in immensly this year, and long term, its clearly WR and WR only.

Maybe at about pick 10, you just start offering our first and second every pick there after if he's on the board. Impossible to say anything is likely, but I think that is a very real outcome. Especially after Gute commenting on a little more urgency to win, and not really backing that up so far.


I like Matthew Golden a lot, just don't think Gute will.

[lupedafiasco]

Gotta say I do like Tet McMillian a decent amount. Isn't my usual cup of tea I like at WR. But I do really really think he's the exact kind of WR Gutenkunst likes and I do think a really good fit for Love.

Huge target, Great hands, big hands, great ball tracking, for maybe the less than perfectly accurate quarterback. Big, tall, strong, fast, all Gute.

Didn't think he was in the realm of possibilities, but Gute at his workout, or proday, or whatever, in to Lambeau for a visit. I think there's a chance.


And if you think about it, we are okay'ish at corner, all we lost from last year (who played) was Eric Stokes, but we upgraded there. Could really use a great edge passrusher, but even year 1 is a minimal impact. DT doesn't necessarily need a body this year to help you and a rookie most likely wouldn't. You'll want to add one, but doesn't need to be right away You talk about a position you could target in the draft that will help in immensly this year, and long term, its clearly WR and WR only.

Maybe at about pick 10, you just start offering our first and second every pick there after if he's on the board. Impossible to say anything is likely, but I think that is a very real outcome. Especially after Gute commenting on a little more urgency to win, and not really backing that up so far.


I like Matthew Golden a lot, just don't think Gute will.

McMillain is so good after the catch too for a big WR. Normally these guys arent so elusive but he can be a playmaker with the ball in his hands. There is 0 chance he makes it to us though. I dont even think its going to be possible to trade up for him him with how high he would go. I would be shocked if he gets past Dallas at 12. Someone else would make the move for him.

I dont think we need a CB either unless Johnson falls in the 1st but the team needs to draft a CB for sure and probably in the middle rounds. With Hobbs, Nixon, and Valentine you have 3 CBs you can absolutely win with. Past that King who I do like but you cant rely on him. Then there is Bullard in the slot but I wasnt impressed at all in his coverage ability. Good run defender though. I worry you are 1 injury away from potentially being incredibly weak at CB and if you have 2 injuries you are talking about 2016 bad CB play.

[BF004]

1 & 2 should be able to get us up to about 13, so it'll be close if he makes it past Dallas.

And actually could see Miami wanting to trade down to get more quantity of picks.

[Yoop]

Gotta say I do like Tet McMillian a decent amount. Isn't my usual cup of tea I like at WR. But I do really really think he's the exact kind of WR Gutenkunst likes and I do think a really good fit for Love.

Huge target, Great hands, big hands, great ball tracking, for maybe the less than perfectly accurate quarterback. Big, tall, strong, fast, all Gute.

Didn't think he was in the realm of possibilities, but Gute at his workout, or proday, or whatever, in to Lambeau for a visit. I think there's a chance.


And if you think about it, we are okay'ish at corner, all we lost from last year (who played) was Eric Stokes, but we upgraded there. Could really use a great edge passrusher, but even year 1 is a minimal impact. DT doesn't necessarily need a body this year to help you and a rookie most likely wouldn't. You'll want to add one, but doesn't need to be right away You talk about a position you could target in the draft that will help in immensly this year, and long term, its clearly WR and WR only.

Maybe at about pick 10, you just start offering our first and second every pick there after if he's on the board. Impossible to say anything is likely, but I think that is a very real outcome. Especially after Gute commenting on a little more urgency to win, and not really backing that up so far.


I like Matthew Golden a lot, just don't think Gute will.

We are very particular with these receivers, as though Lafleur couldn't find a way to max out production for both Reed and an Egbuku or Burden, Golden, all 3 are excellent route runners.

your the first around here I've heard want to trade up to draft a receiver since I can remember

[go pak go]

your the first around here I've heard want to trade up to draft a receiver since I can remember

bullsh*t. It was very popular for the Packers to trade up for Jefferson or Ayuik in 2020. He was the guy especially the final week leading into it.

It just wasn't meant to be.

[NCF]

Maybe at about pick 10, you just start offering our first and second every pick there after if he's on the board. Impossible to say anything is likely, but I think that is a very real outcome. Especially after Gute commenting on a little more urgency to win, and not really backing that up so far.

I hate giving up our 2nd, but I would do it. How about a 3 & 5 to either Cincinnati or Seattle? If he gets past Dallas, there is a nice little run there where I could see him slipping. Miami, Indy, Atlanta, Arizona, & Cincinnati... don't see any of those teams targeting a WR, especially McMillan. Seattle is the pretty big wildcard.

[YoHoChecko]

Maybe at about pick 10, you just start offering our first and second every pick there after if he's on the board. Impossible to say anything is likely, but I think that is a very real outcome. Especially after Gute commenting on a little more urgency to win, and not really backing that up so far.

I hate giving up our 2nd, but I would do it. How about a 3 & 5 to either Cincinnati or Seattle? If he gets past Dallas, there is a nice little run there where I could see him slipping. Miami, Indy, Atlanta, Arizona, & Cincinnati... don't see any of those teams targeting a WR, especially McMillan. Seattle is the pretty big wildcard.

The meat of this draft is in the middle. The elites at the top are not elite. Worst year ever to trade up. Would be a colossal misuse of resources. Anyone you would move up for would likely be picked in the mid twenties last year or next year.

McMillan would have been WR5 or 6 last year.

[NCF]

Maybe at about pick 10, you just start offering our first and second every pick there after if he's on the board. Impossible to say anything is likely, but I think that is a very real outcome. Especially after Gute commenting on a little more urgency to win, and not really backing that up so far.

I hate giving up our 2nd, but I would do it. How about a 3 & 5 to either Cincinnati or Seattle? If he gets past Dallas, there is a nice little run there where I could see him slipping. Miami, Indy, Atlanta, Arizona, & Cincinnati... don't see any of those teams targeting a WR, especially McMillan. Seattle is the pretty big wildcard.

The meat of this draft is in the middle. The elites at the top are not elite. Worst year ever to trade up. Would be a colossal misuse of resources. Anyone you would move up for would likely be picked in the mid twenties last year or next year.

McMillan would have been WR5 or 6 last year.

Eh, that is the 10,000 foot view. I am not even saying I disagree, but teams are still gonna target certain guys and it's all opportunity cost analysis at that point. If guys are getting artificially pushed up the board, then conceivably those picks you are giving up are less valuable than other years, as well, right?

[NCF]

McMillan would have been WR5 or 6 last year.

Yeah, last year was a good looking class, but you gotta get what you can when you can. McMillan is a hard eval, which is why there is as much variance in his draft stock as there is. I do think he is Gute's cup of tea, though.

Gross, the Jaguars got BTJ at #23 last year.

[YoHoChecko]

McMillan would have been WR5 or 6 last year.

Yeah, last year was a good looking class, but you gotta get what you can when you can. McMillan is a hard eval, which is why there is as much variance in his draft stock as there is. I do think he is Gute's cup of tea, though.

Gross, the Jaguars got BTJ at #23 last year.

So why would you trade up for a high-variance, tough eval? It makes no sense at all. Especially because we have other needs. I would HATE a trade up for McMillan or for any WR. I'm not sure about Mykel, but I could justify a trade up there given the question marks at so many other EDGE prospects beneath him, the youth, and the elite upside. But even then we're running into the "lot of resources for EDGE."

The draft seems to be missing an entire tier of players right beneath the "elites" of Hunter, Carter, Graham, and Jenty. I guess you have that second tier for the TEs--Warren and Loveland. But I'd argue that the rest of the draft below those guys basically starts at a grade that would correspond with pick 20. And there are dozens of those guys. This is one of those drafts when we're going to be considering guys at 23 who are still on the board at 54 because there's such a glut and such an eye-of-the-beholder level.

McMillan is not worth these sorts of resources. If we were up there and he just falls to us? Sure. I'm not giving up a speck of value to go get someone who didn't even do any athletic testing because he knew it would hurt his draft stock and compares to like Hakeem Nicks and Kenny Golladay. I'm not even sure I like him more than Keon Coleman who went at 32 last year.

[Labrev]

Man, I'm just not feeling this WR class for our need there: (1) an outside guy who can (2) threaten vertically and (3) beat press coverage. There just do not seem to guys who checks all three boxes. Not even Hunter does, lol. The one guy who maybe does is Tre Harris, but is very iffy on #2.

... and it keeps me coming back to my "galaxy-brained" idea: it might be easier to find that big guy who can threaten vertically at TE than WR.

[Yoop]

your the first around here I've heard want to trade up to draft a receiver since I can remember

bullsh*t. It was very popular for the Packers to trade up for Jefferson or Ayuik in 2020. He was the guy especially the final week leading into it.

It just wasn't meant to be.

easy now, that was tongue in cheek because it rarely happens, and like some others, and as Guty said about chasing a position of need, often ya don't get what your hoping for.
seriously I was shocked when 004 suggested sending our number two for a player there really is no consensus on as a top 10 player, I've seen Tet mocked in the 20's late 20's even, I've seen mocks were both Golden and Egbaku went higher,

now Higgens might not have the speed, but again before I trade up for any of the others in round one, and the top 4 are gone, then DL or CB are my next options at our pick, if we don't like any of them, slide back and take Higgins.

[packman114]

I'm thinking Gutey takes a QB somewhere this year because we probably lose Willis after this season. Of the QBs in the later rounds McCord seems like a good fit for MLF as he is a really good downfield passer. He's probably one of those guys who can make a career out of being QB2 in this league.

[NCF]

So why would you trade up for a high-variance, tough eval? It makes no sense at all.

You're looking at it through the lens of an NFL Draft scout or fan. For the Packers, they have done that evaluation. Maybe they love him, maybe they don't like him that much. Just having the conversation to talk through options if they are super high on him.

[YoHoChecko]

No I’m looking at it through the “there is no earthly way that for two decades we haven’t had a WR fall to us that we deemed worth a first round pick and we decided THIS GUY is the one that’s worth TWO top 60 picks” point of view.

Like. This guy?! Truly no way we like him more than we did Jefferson or Auiuk or Bateman, all of whom we were rumored to be interested in much smaller moves up for but the value didn’t work out for us.

[NCF]

No I’m looking at it through the “there is no earthly way that for two decades we haven’t had a WR fall to us that we deemed worth a first round pick and we decided THIS GUY is the one that’s worth TWO top 60 picks” point of view.

Like. This guy?! Truly no way we like him more than we did Jefferson or Auiuk or Bateman, all of whom we were rumored to be interested in much smaller moves up for but the value didn’t work out for us.

Fair enough. I have long since given up believing I am beyond being shocked on Draft Day by the Packers. You know from past seasons I am usually right with you on the trade down platform. I just do think we could be in for some surprise and right or wrong (wrong) I do also think there may be some external pressure given the circumstances to make something like this happen this year above all.

[YoHoChecko]

I just like to take arbitrarily strong positions on some things so that I get more invested in the chatter.

Like if we now do trade up for Tet, I HAVE to come to the board to listen to y'all roast me.

You'd think talking trash about Jordy Nelson for 18 months before he broke out would have taught me to trust the process, but what fun is that?

Not that I don't sincerely believe what I'm saying. But I pick some hills to die on, and trading up for a WR in this class is gonna be at least one of those hills this year.