2020 General Draft Discussion

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Yoop
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Post by Yoop »

NCF wrote:
31 Mar 2020 08:47
Yoop wrote:
31 Mar 2020 08:36
NCF wrote:
31 Mar 2020 08:10


Ah, pish posh. There are LB's in this draft that can do it, even after the top group. Also, I want people to understand that Kirksey is going to be here for a cup of coffee. 1 to 2 years and we will be in the same damn position if we don't have a plan.
you bring up the failed pick of Jones, who by the way has not excelled at safety any where either to my knowledge, yet ya don't mention the half doz. mid to later round ILB's that didn't make it either.

just because Jones couldn't adjust to it doesn't mean other safety's wont, for cripe sacks you act as though players can't change positions at this level when evidence shows that it happens regularly, Nick Collins was a CB, when tight ends grow to much there made into OT's, college QB's switch so they can have a pro career, it happens.

I think people are loosing focus simply because we couldn't stop the run well enough 3 times last year, never mind that the players we had where good enough to do it, but our DC decided to keep single gaping and our Dl guys kept over pursuing those gaps, basically insuring that they had no chance to make a play, and because of that very poor play, we now need the greatest ILB and Dliner we can possibly get.

I didn't say to not take a later round ILB, in fact I endorse doing that, but my point is and always has been that we NEED BETTER coverage, and that chance of getting that with a later round ILB is slim to near zero, thats why ya take the safety.
Then, I guess we have to agree to disagree. Of course prospects CAN make the change, but wouldn't you agree that makes the NFL transition more difficult for them? My point is that I don't want to have to choose between a S who can cover, but not tackle, and a LB who can tackle but not cover. I want the total package. I know that is asking a lot and those guys can be difficult to find, but its not impossible, even down the draft board. Maybe we need stricter athletic cut offs like we seemingly do at other positions. Just don't draft a guy that you already KNOW can't do it.
yes we do want the same thing, the complete package, and the draft could provide it, I just don't expect that it will, so I'am just trying to be realistic and take the guy that I think could transition the fastest which is the safety.

in college (and I admit I don't watch as much of it that I use to) the SS plays in the box almost as much as the ILB, so they know quite a bit about run signs that a offense can't hide, so that gives them the same type knowledge a ILB learns defending the run, and when it comes to coverage, typically they are much farther ahead of the lber curve, I see no reason why a big safety isn't the best second option to groom to play that will position for years for us.

KC played the 3 safety scheme for years with berry, other teams as well, your allowing a few lbs to cloud your judgement I think.

some positions are really hard to fill because Colleges don't prioritize the position as much, FS for years seemed like that, lis, Collins was a college CB for several years, others here ( I think Yoho) myself for sure even said we need to find a corner we can turn into a FS, the safety's coming out lack the speed, basically it's been the same with ILB, those that we've had and failed simply where not good choices to try with, but Burnett became a prized UFA because he could do it, and did it well, go look up his stats.

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Post by go pak go »

oh my gawd.

yoop and I are actually on the same page on a discussion topic. :shock:

:eekout: :hide: :suicide: :rotfl:
Yoop wrote:
26 May 2021 11:22
could we get some moderation in here to get rid of conspiracy theory's, some in here are trying to have a adult conversation.
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Post by go pak go »

I will say that I only want a safety though who has the ability to shed blocks and is a very, very strong tackler. This year I think there are four of them in this draft.

1. Kyle Dugger
2. Jeremy Chinn
3. Antoine Brooks
4. Brad Jones
Yoop wrote:
26 May 2021 11:22
could we get some moderation in here to get rid of conspiracy theory's, some in here are trying to have a adult conversation.
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Post by YoHoChecko »

NCF wrote:
31 Mar 2020 07:36
YoHoChecko wrote:
30 Mar 2020 18:56
Do you see why differentiating like that is... kinda silly?
No. I want a LB who played LB. Where differentiating might be silly is if you find me this hybrid guy that actually played LB, then I am board. These college Safeties just do not translate well to everything we ask them to do.

So, to clarify my position, its two positions. The Hybrid guy is all well and good and we need that guy and use him a lot. But we have that in Raven Greene. We also need an athletic LB who can run and cover and has enough instincts to not be a liability in the run game and the physicality to attack the hole, fill, and wrap-and-tackle... we do not have that guy and that is the guy we desperately need.
Just to clarify, I too want a LB who played LB to do LB things. I'm just pointing out that saying "we have Greene for that" is fine and good but a) he's been injured, and b) getting a guy with more size to upgrade that oft-used hybrid position and improve against the run when in that package is still an upgrade and still would be very useful for the team. I pointed out that one of these guys as that 3rd safety role could end our problems with TEs and RBs in coverage. My point was simply saying "we have enough safeties, I don't want another" is "but these two have different body types and physical profiles than our safeties and could fill a roll that we very much need and could use."

That's not to say I don't ALSO want a LB who plays LB. I feel like Kirksey, if healthy, is a very good 3-down LB. We need a second, whether that's a rangier guy or a stouter guy... I'm not sure. IF we end up with a guy who is more stout, like a Shaq Quarterman or a David Woodward or a Francis Bernard or even a Logan Wilson, then having a big-bodied rangy nickel safety also makes sense.

I'm not saying I WANT them to be our pick. I'm saying I like them as players and I believe that what they bring to the table is worth the draft pick at the right value.

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Post by NCF »

Always interesting to look at these, especially at the top of the Packers board.

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Post by lupedafiasco »

YoHoChecko wrote:
30 Mar 2020 18:56
lupedafiasco wrote:
30 Mar 2020 18:45
If they take a safety early I will be pissed. Gute needs to be very aware of the resources he has available. I would rather have a fast LB than play another safety at the position when you already have Greene.
Let's look at some weights

Darnell Savage: 198
Adrian Amos: 214
Raven Greene: 197

Jeremy Chinn: 221
Kyle Duggar: 217

Fast LBs:
Patrick Queen: 229 (1st round)
Akeem Davis-Gaither: 224 (day 2-mid round)
Davion Taylor: 228 (mid-late rounder)

Do you see why differentiating like that is... kinda silly?
No I don’t see why it’s silly. You’re just looking at size. Which is fine whatever. I’ll take a LB who has played the position his whole life and has the positional instincts and experience handling shedding blocks/ dealing with the box. No thanks on the safety playing out of position. We already did that with Dumbarious and Jones. Hard pass.
Cancelled by the forum elites.

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Post by Drj820 »

i think not being able to do all the pre draft pro days and workouts is actually a good thing. The players still got to do the combine. I know it hurts the small school guys, who wanted to also do a pro day to show off. But the players had 3-4 years of game tape to show themselves, a combine, and all the senior bowls...that should be plenty for a scouting department to evaluate and make a decision on players. The Pro days were always overrated to me anyways. They just put a player in his most comfortable environment and let him show off, thats great and all...but in a game on sunday..the players are hardly ever in their most comfortable environments.

I think this elevates the importance of game film, and the teams already have all the measurables from the combine. No need to delay the draft as some whiney GMs who havent been doing their jobs along the way want.
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Post by Pckfn23 »

The issue lies in that game film is not always equal. A guy dominating the Conference USA competition might not look as good against competition from the SEC. The workouts, combine and Pro Days, help validate what one sees on tape or open up questions that may need further review. Tape is the number 1 resource and always has been, but workouts are useful in their own right.
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Post by Drj820 »

Pckfn23 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 14:03
The issue lies in that game film is not always equal. A guy dominating the Conference USA competition might not look as good against competition from the SEC. The workouts, combine and Pro Days, help validate what one sees on tape or open up questions that may need further review. Tape is the number 1 resource and always has been, but workouts are useful in their own right.

Yeah, i admitted it hurts the small school guys. But im not sure a pro day should really elevate small school guy much anyways. Hes doing things in an easy controlled environment still. They still have the senior bowls and combine.

I know it hurts some people, but for the vast majority i think the good teams will already have all the info they need.
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Post by Pckfn23 »

Drj820 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 14:11
Pckfn23 wrote:
31 Mar 2020 14:03
The issue lies in that game film is not always equal. A guy dominating the Conference USA competition might not look as good against competition from the SEC. The workouts, combine and Pro Days, help validate what one sees on tape or open up questions that may need further review. Tape is the number 1 resource and always has been, but workouts are useful in their own right.

Yeah, i admitted it hurts the small school guys. But im not sure a pro day should really elevate small school guy much anyways. Hes doing things in an easy controlled environment still. They still have the senior bowls and combine.

I know it hurts some people, but for the vast majority i think the good teams will already have all the info they need.
More information is always better regardless of player or GM.
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Post by Pckfn23 »

Dane Brugler put out his Draft Guide. A couple of interesting takes:

RB rank is Dobbins, Swift, Taylor.
Trautman before Kmet at TE.
Biadasz is his 6th center in the 5th.
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Post by YoHoChecko »

Pckfn23 wrote:
08 Apr 2020 19:53
Dane Brugler put out his Draft Guide. A couple of interesting takes:

RB rank is Dobbins, Swift, Taylor.
Trautman before Kmet at TE.
Biadasz is his 6th center in the 5th.
Man, I liked Trautman a lot, but that 4.80 is a bit tough to swallow. For me, it pushed him from 2nd round to 3rd round, at best. Playing at Dayton, you need the workout to validate the film given the level of competition.

Kiper and McShay both seem to also have Swift and Dobbins ahead of Taylor, but with Swift first.

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Wisconsin Cheese Is Better Than California Cheese!

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Post by Freewheelingutey »

Dan Shocka? I'm not sure how his name is spelled..former scout.. always does a mock draft with his guys..on some site. They always have him on the fan. His pick for us at 30..Patrick Queen. I have a hard time believing that he will be there at 30. However he has nailed our last 2 1st round picks. Guy does know his stuff.

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Post by YoHoChecko »

Freewheelingutey wrote:
09 Apr 2020 15:37
Dan Shocka? I'm not sure how his name is spelled..former scout.. always does a mock draft with his guys..on some site. They always have him on the fan. His pick for us at 30..Patrick Queen. I have a hard time believing that he will be there at 30. However he has nailed our last 2 1st round picks. Guy does know his stuff.
I will say that undersized ILBs often fall a bit farther than mock drafts project them. I mean think about how we weren't convinced that we could get Eric Kendricks and Myles Jack and they slid past us, even. After the Devins went in the top 10 last year, the next LB went 43. Then you have years like 2018 where all the guys we hoped might fall didn't (LVE, for instance), though Edmunds did go lower than expected at 16. It wouldn't surprise me to see Queen go before 30, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's there, either.

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Post by Yoop »

YoHoChecko wrote:
09 Apr 2020 16:34
Freewheelingutey wrote:
09 Apr 2020 15:37
Dan Shocka? I'm not sure how his name is spelled..former scout.. always does a mock draft with his guys..on some site. They always have him on the fan. His pick for us at 30..Patrick Queen. I have a hard time believing that he will be there at 30. However he has nailed our last 2 1st round picks. Guy does know his stuff.
I will say that undersized ILBs often fall a bit farther than mock drafts project them. I mean think about how we weren't convinced that we could get Eric Kendricks and Myles Jack and they slid past us, even. After the Devins went in the top 10 last year, the next LB went 43. Then you have years like 2018 where all the guys we hoped might fall didn't (LVE, for instance), though Edmunds did go lower than expected at 16. It wouldn't surprise me to see Queen go before 30, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's there, either.
well didn't Myles drop do to injury and surgery, didn't he have a leg :lol: (couldn't help tossing in the famous McCarthy injury translation)lol. and also wasn't Kendricks sort of borderline concerning ILB size and also draft grade late 1 or early 2? seems like thats how I remember that.

sure, I think all things equal 6.3 and 240 is better then 6.2 and 225, but the problem is all things aren't equal, the bigger guys that do it all are few, and speed, range, and coverage ability trump (no pun intended) plugging a gap, or taking on a OL, or any of the run stopping stuff, to me it's a easy choice, I want the coverage ability, I think thats why many pick Queen to be drafted before Murray.

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Post by paco »

Does anyone have a list of the Packers historical preferences of draft prospects when in comes to 3 cone, 40 vertical, etc? What are those numbers for each position? I used to have it but can't find it and am too lazy to search for it.
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Post by NCF »

paco wrote:
09 Apr 2020 21:19
Does anyone have a list of the Packers historical preferences of draft prospects when in comes to 3 cone, 40 vertical, etc? What are those numbers for each position? I used to have it but can't find it and am too lazy to search for it.
Justis put together a really nice summary on CheeseheadTV, but I don't know how things have evolved since Gutey took over, although he discusses that. He also uses advanced measurements that are not readily available and need to be calculated based on several available measurements.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/justis-20 ... sholds-638
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Post by NCF »

Recommending this to all draftniks, again.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/green-bay-pack ... raft-guide
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Post by paco »

NCF wrote:
10 Apr 2020 07:12
paco wrote:
09 Apr 2020 21:19
Does anyone have a list of the Packers historical preferences of draft prospects when in comes to 3 cone, 40 vertical, etc? What are those numbers for each position? I used to have it but can't find it and am too lazy to search for it.
Justis put together a really nice summary on CheeseheadTV, but I don't know how things have evolved since Gutey took over, although he discusses that. He also uses advanced measurements that are not readily available and need to be calculated based on several available measurements.

https://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/justis-20 ... sholds-638
Thanks, that's what I was looking for. I think Gutey has mostly stayed within these parameters so far. But will be interesting to see after this year and then compare.
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