Viking week - GDT

[Yoop]

I'm getting to the point of don't put player resources on the defense because it just doesn't matter. Ever since 2010 the Packers have drafted and signed defense. Defense. Defense. Defense.

And for what?

It has been a failed model.

It’s not a failed model if you don’t draft like a moron. Over and over we’ve been fitting round pegs into square holes. Datone Jones never fit a 3-4 (and shouldn’t have been a 1st round pick anyway), Damarious Randall was a clear safety we tried at CB who really wanted to play baseball, Quinten Rollins was a 1 year CB who wanted to play basketball, HHCD was a free safety with no range, Rashan Gary never has produced anything in his entire god damned football career and we took him at 12th, and then you trade up in the 1st and take the anti HHCD in Savage who is all range and no physicality.

spot on, we have, and have had high draft picks dedicated to defense for years that didn't pan out here, or else where, course the gang here focuses on the couple that did well elsewhere (Hayward/Hyde) as though that actually proves something, when that is quite common, for instance just look at the Smith boys and others that came here and excelled, imho the biggest problem for us is we always are changing out players, consequently inexperience within the schemes are always exploited, we've rarely played a base 3-4 scheme because we've rarely had the personal required for that to work, this particuler game was another example.

when ya look at the better defenses in the league ya don't see many that have weak positions or players with very little experience playing in them, specially so within the front 7, most have 2 very good CB, a couple very good edge rushers, and stud ILB's.

we blame Pettine, and surely he doesn't make in game adjustments well, but who does with backup caliber players or out right rookies at key positions? people complained about this same stuff with Capers, same problems different coaches should be a clue that the problems are more then just coaching, even so a couple quality players would make there jobs easier.

[go pak go]

when ya look at the better defenses in the league ya don't see many that have weak positions or players with very little experience playing in them, specially so within the front 7, most have 2 very good CB, a couple very good edge rushers, and stud ILB's.

Welcome back yoop!!!

When you aren't posting, the Packers have sucked so don't leave us again.

I do agree about our players. I am really starting to question Gutekunst too as his picks are starting to look bad. They just haven't panned out.

I do though find this statement to be kind of strange. Like of course players will look good when they are on a good unit. I said this in 2018 when everyone was raving about the 2017 Vikings defense. The same personnel was there in 2018 and the unit just fell. It wasn't that their talent was so much better, but it was that the unit was simply clicking.

Andrew Sendejo looked like a top safety in the league in 2017 and then couldn't find a job a year later. He was weak, but the Vikings had a good program to hide that weakness.

I think the biggest issue this year is all three components of lacking of talent, especially at the ILB position, poor coaching, and our top players are not playing well. Take the freaking linebacker when they are there. We have now had Queen and Kendricks available and passed on them in the last 5 years. But it is having Preston Smith line up at CB, having two DTs drop back in coverage and our CBs playing 10 to 15 yards off the receivers when they should actually play an attacking style.

And for gods sakes your top players need to play to their level which Preston, Zadarius and Kenny Clark have all done nothing but play like garbage and that is really holding this defense back.

[Yoop]

when ya look at the better defenses in the league ya don't see many that have weak positions or players with very little experience playing in them, specially so within the front 7, most have 2 very good CB, a couple very good edge rushers, and stud ILB's.

Welcome back yoop!!!

When you aren't posting, the Packers have sucked so don't leave us again.

I do agree about our players. I am really starting to question Gutekunst too as his picks are starting to look bad. They just haven't panned out.

I do though find this statement to be kind of strange. Like of course players will look good when they are on a good unit. I said this in 2018 when everyone was raving about the 2017 Vikings defense. The same personnel was there in 2018 and the unit just fell. It wasn't that their talent was so much better, but it was that the unit was simply clicking.

Andrew Sendejo looked like a top safety in the league in 2017 and then couldn't find a job a year later. He was weak, but the Vikings had a good program to hide that weakness.

I think the biggest issue this year is all three components of lacking of talent, especially at the ILB position, poor coaching, and our top players are not playing well. Take the freaking linebacker when they are there. We have now had Queen and Kendricks available and passed on them in the last 5 years. But it is having Preston Smith line up at CB, having two DTs drop back in coverage and our CBs playing 10 to 15 yards off the receivers when they should actually play an attacking style.

And for gods sakes your top players need to play to their level which Preston, Zadarius and Kenny Clark have all done nothing but play like garbage and that is really holding this defense back.

just my opinion, defense is the harder side of the ball to jell up because it requires more moving pieces to sinc up and play in unison with each other, we can't hide a weaker position because the player next to it can barely handle there own responsibility's, so that in itself gives us match up issues, we don't have a collins to help a Peprah, know what I mean?

and most of the defenses are a step behind the offenses this year, (not enough pre season work), often players need that time to knock off the off seasons of laying around and getting out of shape ( and they all have a mom like Lacy's that specialize in BBQ Chicken when ya see Prestin Smith handled by a TE as easily as he has been, well he's either Lazy or not in shape, maybe it's both.

we can complain about all kinds of stuff, prestin dropping to cover the TE imo isn't one of them, I think the guy only caught a couple of short passes, and lbers cover TE's all the time, no big deal there, I care more that he's not getting pressures then Pettine asking him to cover a TE

[go pak go]

when ya look at the better defenses in the league ya don't see many that have weak positions or players with very little experience playing in them, specially so within the front 7, most have 2 very good CB, a couple very good edge rushers, and stud ILB's.

Welcome back yoop!!!

When you aren't posting, the Packers have sucked so don't leave us again.

I do agree about our players. I am really starting to question Gutekunst too as his picks are starting to look bad. They just haven't panned out.

I do though find this statement to be kind of strange. Like of course players will look good when they are on a good unit. I said this in 2018 when everyone was raving about the 2017 Vikings defense. The same personnel was there in 2018 and the unit just fell. It wasn't that their talent was so much better, but it was that the unit was simply clicking.

Andrew Sendejo looked like a top safety in the league in 2017 and then couldn't find a job a year later. He was weak, but the Vikings had a good program to hide that weakness.

I think the biggest issue this year is all three components of lacking of talent, especially at the ILB position, poor coaching, and our top players are not playing well. Take the freaking linebacker when they are there. We have now had Queen and Kendricks available and passed on them in the last 5 years. But it is having Preston Smith line up at CB, having two DTs drop back in coverage and our CBs playing 10 to 15 yards off the receivers when they should actually play an attacking style.

And for gods sakes your top players need to play to their level which Preston, Zadarius and Kenny Clark have all done nothing but play like garbage and that is really holding this defense back.

just my opinion, defense is the harder side of the ball to jell up because it requires more moving pieces to sinc up and play in unison with each other, we can't hide a weaker position because the player next to it can barely handle there own responsibility's, so that in itself gives us match up issues, we don't have a collins to help a Peprah, know what I mean?

Good post.

Here is my question that I just can't understand. We as Packers fans view having a good defense being so hard to get because we dump so much resources at it and yet always suck at getting it.

Yet you have teams like the Bears, Ravens, Steelers, Vikings since 2004 seem to always get a good unit out there.

I mean I get it from the offensive side when you compare GB to CHI. We have Rodgers and Favre which always elevates our offense. But the Bears and Packers have gone through multiple regime changes with scouts, GMs, coaches, etc. And yet the Bears always seem to be able to have a good defense and the Packers don't and vice versa. No matter how much resources are put at their perceived weaker side of the ball.

[Labrev]

prestin dropping to cover the TE imo isn't one of them, I think the guy only caught a couple of short passes, and lbers cover TE's all the time, no big deal there, I care more that he's not getting pressures then Pettine asking him to cover a TE

1. Preston is athletically much more akin to a traditional 4-3 DE than a LB. It's stupid to drop him into coverage, period.
2. the fact that the TE only caught a few short passes is exactly because they were gashing us all day in the run, due in big part to the fact that they were lining up their TE out wide to take Smith out of the box. That was the point of them doing that, and why lining up Smith out there was so stupid.

[Yoop]

Welcome back yoop!!!

When you aren't posting, the Packers have sucked so don't leave us again.

I do agree about our players. I am really starting to question Gutekunst too as his picks are starting to look bad. They just haven't panned out.

I do though find this statement to be kind of strange. Like of course players will look good when they are on a good unit. I said this in 2018 when everyone was raving about the 2017 Vikings defense. The same personnel was there in 2018 and the unit just fell. It wasn't that their talent was so much better, but it was that the unit was simply clicking.

Andrew Sendejo looked like a top safety in the league in 2017 and then couldn't find a job a year later. He was weak, but the Vikings had a good program to hide that weakness.

I think the biggest issue this year is all three components of lacking of talent, especially at the ILB position, poor coaching, and our top players are not playing well. Take the freaking linebacker when they are there. We have now had Queen and Kendricks available and passed on them in the last 5 years. But it is having Preston Smith line up at CB, having two DTs drop back in coverage and our CBs playing 10 to 15 yards off the receivers when they should actually play an attacking style.

And for gods sakes your top players need to play to their level which Preston, Zadarius and Kenny Clark have all done nothing but play like garbage and that is really holding this defense back.

just my opinion, defense is the harder side of the ball to jell up because it requires more moving pieces to sinc up and play in unison with each other, we can't hide a weaker position because the player next to it can barely handle there own responsibility's, so that in itself gives us match up issues, we don't have a collins to help a Peprah, know what I mean?

Good post.

Here is my question that I just can't understand. We as Packers fans view having a good defense being so hard to get because we dump so much resources at it and yet always suck at getting it.

Yet you have teams like the Bears, Ravens, Steelers, Vikings since 2004 seem to always get a good unit out there.

I mean I get it from the offensive side when you compare GB to CHI. We have Rodgers and Favre which always elevates our offense. But the Bears and Packers have gone through multiple regime changes with scouts, GMs, coaches, etc. And yet the Bears always seem to be able to have a good defense and the Packers don't and vice versa. No matter how much resources are put at their perceived weaker side of the ball.

well most of our top picks and resources have been at DL, Edge rusher, and CB, minus safety with HHCD, Savage ( who so far couldn't hold HaHa's jock strap) and Amos, as I said, go look at the ILB's of the best defensive units, they all have studs at the second level lber positions, and for the last 10 years the FO as it did with safety for years by passes that position, seems we've hit on a couple now, however it's to early to know this for sure as of yet, again back to my main point, we didn't have a off season program, and that multiplys big time to produce what we now see, specially so when you couple that to youth and inexperienced players.

not to defend Pettine, or any of his assistant coaches, our players at times take plays off or look like zombies, and obviously there is no excuse for this lousy tackling, but imho a lot of our issues are a direct result of the lack of off season work, TC and PS games.

[NCF]

Further insult to injury..,

Just saw on SportsCenter that Dalvin Cook became the first player in the 100+ year history of the NFL to score 4 TDs on his teams first four possessions.

[lupedafiasco]

Yoop nailed it. Great defenses have great ILBs. Very rarely do defenses succeed would succeed with the scrubs we’ve had. We’ve had some good ones but we’ve never had 2 competent ILBs on the roster at the same time. The best combination we’ve had was maybe Bishop and Hawk over the years and that is a very low bar.

[Yoop]

prestin dropping to cover the TE imo isn't one of them, I think the guy only caught a couple of short passes, and lbers cover TE's all the time, no big deal there, I care more that he's not getting pressures then Pettine asking him to cover a TE

1. Preston is athletically much more akin to a traditional 4-3 DE than a LB. It's stupid to drop him into coverage, period.
2. the fact that the TE only caught a few short passes is exactly because they were gashing us all day in the run, due in big part to the fact that they were lining up their TE out wide to take Smith out of the box. That was the point of them doing that, and why lining up Smith out there was so stupid.

Capers/Pettine would rather make a team take the short stuff then give up the big play, and you gonna give up the big stuff if you press and fail, when you see Cb's give big cushions it has to do with that, I know I hate it too, but thats just how that stuff works.

hey man it's not as though Prestin is a great guy at closing the edge, same with Z, and if the TE isn't a threat to beat him bad with the pass, then does it matter? and all defenses drop lineman in coverage as a disguise to make something else work better, we shouldn't confuse our lack of ability to make that happen, we dropped Mathews and other guys the same size as Prestin before, and bigger 4-3 DE's drop in coverage as well, seems like a bih hullabalo over something that is quite common.

[go pak go]

I'm pretty sure setting the edge was like Preston Smith largest advertised strength when we signed him in FA.

[go pak go]

prestin dropping to cover the TE imo isn't one of them, I think the guy only caught a couple of short passes, and lbers cover TE's all the time, no big deal there, I care more that he's not getting pressures then Pettine asking him to cover a TE

1. Preston is athletically much more akin to a traditional 4-3 DE than a LB. It's stupid to drop him into coverage, period.
2. the fact that the TE only caught a few short passes is exactly because they were gashing us all day in the run, due in big part to the fact that they were lining up their TE out wide to take Smith out of the box. That was the point of them doing that, and why lining up Smith out there was so stupid.

hey man it's not as though Prestin is a great guy at closing the edge, same with Z, and if the TE isn't a threat to beat him bad with the pass, then does it matter? and all defenses drop lineman in coverage as a disguise to make something else work better, we shouldn't confuse our lack of ability to make that happen, we dropped Mathews and other guys the same size as Prestin before, and bigger 4-3 DE's drop in coverage as well, seems like a bih hullabalo over something that is quite common.

Absolultely. We acknolwege LBs and Dlinemen will drop in coverage. We celebreated it when Raji got the TD INT.

But there is a difference between a Dlinemen dropping in a zone coverage in the middle of the field compared to taking a big body out of the box and putting him where a safety should be. Preston Smith has business being this close to the boundary.

[Yoop]

I'm pretty sure setting the edge was like Preston Smith largest advertised strength when we signed him in FA.

haha you don't really think we paid 50 mil. for a edge setter, I know you wouldn't think that you momma could set the edge Go Pack.

heres what I think about that, last year the Smith boys where just concentrating on rushing the QB, and most of the time teams had to pass because we had 2 score leads, in fact that has been the case for years with Rodgers, who cares about stopping the run when you rarely have to, after SF pounded us running the ball Pettine has tasked the Smiths with honoring the run and then rushing the QB, at least thats how it looks to me, and both suck at it, why? because there not as smart as your mother there not multi taskers, thats my best explanation lol.

seriously, obviously, thats not as easy as it sounds, and why most defenses use off man and zone, that way the CB can see if it's a run and they can drop and help with edge contain, it takes time and defocuses from what you actually pay a 3-4 OLB to do, rush the QB, imho it's a factor for why we are not getting the QB pressures from the Smiths that we got last year, at least part of the reasons.

[Yoop]

1. Preston is athletically much more akin to a traditional 4-3 DE than a LB. It's stupid to drop him into coverage, period.
2. the fact that the TE only caught a few short passes is exactly because they were gashing us all day in the run, due in big part to the fact that they were lining up their TE out wide to take Smith out of the box. That was the point of them doing that, and why lining up Smith out there was so stupid.

hey man it's not as though Prestin is a great guy at closing the edge, same with Z, and if the TE isn't a threat to beat him bad with the pass, then does it matter? and all defenses drop lineman in coverage as a disguise to make something else work better, we shouldn't confuse our lack of ability to make that happen, we dropped Mathews and other guys the same size as Prestin before, and bigger 4-3 DE's drop in coverage as well, seems like a bih hullabalo over something that is quite common.

Absolultely. We acknolwege LBs and Dlinemen will drop in coverage. We celebreated it when Raji got the TD INT.

But there is a difference between a Dlinemen dropping in a zone coverage in the middle of the field compared to taking a big body out of the box and putting him where a safety should be. Preston Smith has business being this close to the boundary.

we drop Prestin because we where stunting inside, you can't blame Pettine for that, and who ever told you that a safety is always tasked to cover TE's? thats a Packers thing because we havn't had a decent coverage lber in years, lets not confuse our ineptitude about that with positional tasking, that ILB for Minny (Kirkland???) covered both Sternberger and Tonyan the3 whole game, no way you or 23 will ever convince me that a DC would task a 6' 200 lb safety against a 6'5" 250 TE unless he had no other choice, that doesn't even make sense, right????

[BSA]

But there is a difference between a Dlinemen dropping in a zone coverage in the middle of the field compared to taking a big body out of the box and putting him where a safety should be. Preston Smith has business being this close to the boundary.

it does seem nuts.
The Packers were without Kirksey, King, Raven Greene and Will Redmond so maybe that was part of the decision ?

[go pak go]

hey man it's not as though Prestin is a great guy at closing the edge, same with Z, and if the TE isn't a threat to beat him bad with the pass, then does it matter? and all defenses drop lineman in coverage as a disguise to make something else work better, we shouldn't confuse our lack of ability to make that happen, we dropped Mathews and other guys the same size as Prestin before, and bigger 4-3 DE's drop in coverage as well, seems like a bih hullabalo over something that is quite common.

Absolultely. We acknolwege LBs and Dlinemen will drop in coverage. We celebreated it when Raji got the TD INT.

But there is a difference between a Dlinemen dropping in a zone coverage in the middle of the field compared to taking a big body out of the box and putting him where a safety should be. Preston Smith has business being this close to the boundary.

we drop Prestin because we where stunting inside, you can't blame Pettine for that, and who ever told you that a safety is always tasked to cover TE's? thats a Packers thing because we havn't had a decent coverage lber in years, lets not confuse our ineptitude about that with positional tasking, that ILB for Minny (Kirkland???) covered both Sternberger and Tonyan the3 whole game, no way you or 23 will ever convince me that a DC would task a 6' 200 lb safety against a 6'5" 250 TE unless he had no other choice, that doesn't even make sense, right????

I wouldn't be as confused if it was a linebacker like Kamal Martin covering the TE when lined up out wide compared to a pass rushing OLB/DE.

And I don't have a problem with Preston doing some coverage work. I don't love it. But I get its importance for 25% to 30% of snaps.

But I don't get why Preston was lined up as our most wide defender. Why would one of our slower defensive players be forced to cover the most ground on our defense?

[Labrev]

Sorry yoop, but the guy who dropped a DT (Montravious Adams) into coverage against an offense with a Hall-of-Fame TE (Gronk) does not get the benefit-of-the-doubt from me.

At this point, I half-expect him to start dropping the whole front-seven into coverage on, like, 3rd & 4. Anything to stop the pass!!

The idea that letting up 250 yards to a single running back is fine just to avoid getting beaten by big pass plays is about as backward a logic as you can have at defense. Of course you're not getting beat by big pass plays: they don't NEED to pass!!!

[Pckfn23]

I'm pretty sure setting the edge was like Preston Smith largest advertised strength when we signed him in FA.

He did it well last season, along with Z Smith, up until the 49ers game.

[Pckfn23]

no way you or 23 will ever convince me that a DC would task a 6' 200 lb safety against a 6'5" 250 TE unless he had no other choice, that doesn't even make sense, right????

It has nothing to do with body size, but everything to do with eyes. Where should an ILBs eyes start or immediately transition to in the vast majority of their snaps?

[Pckfn23]

But there is a difference between a Dlinemen dropping in a zone coverage in the middle of the field compared to taking a big body out of the box and putting him where a safety should be. Preston Smith has business being this close to the boundary.

it does seem nuts.
The Packers were without Kirksey, King, Raven Greene and Will Redmond so maybe that was part of the decision ?

We had Chandon Sullivan who only got 16 snaps. We still have Amos and Savage. Walk one of them done instead of splitting Preston out wide on a TE...

[NCF]

And I say that specifically because I truly believe, with the mini-Bye after the 49ers game, more of those guys continue to sit than actually play.

I would bet 3 out of 4 of those guys plays on Thursday.

I hope I'm wrong. I don't even know what Greene's injury is, but the big ones, Bak, Jones, and King, I will not be surprised if all three sit.

[mention]Pckfn23[/mention], still leaning your way? Today was likely our "heavy" day even though there never was going to be pads this week and still not sure either will be able to go.