2020 Positional Draft Talk - ILB

[salmar80]

Baum has played a lot of drop and cover, he should be able to pick up on the duty of a off ball lber pretty quick, I don't think he's what I'd look for as a ILB for us, but most draft sites consider him the 4th best choice to become one for a NFL team, and they figure he'll be picked early to mid 2nd round.

most GM realize now that smoking a little weed is no different then having a couple drinks, and have convinced the league officials that it is counter productive to suspend players simply because they want to use a different substance to un wind and relax, sure took them long enough to come to there senses, and to quit punishing both player and team for something far less dangerous then alcohol.

Weed isn't the issue. For Callaway the smoking of it was a faraway sidenote. Strike 1: Don't stay clean for the Combine = No self-discipline and/or lack of motivation. Strike 2: Try to lie about it = What else is this guy dishonest about? Strike 3: Too close for comfort... The league is already on notice...

I dunno if Baum lied about it. If he didn't and was just over-hydrated to get a favorable weigh-in result, well that does not bode well for dependability of his combine testing numbers. Neither option pushes him upwards on boards.

I think you're more waaaay more optimistic about ease of position changes than me. ILB isn't all that easy. If you could plug any athletically fitting prospect there, teams would do it WAY more with undersized college OLBs and DEs, who can't beat NFL OTs in pass rush, and with and oversized safeties who can't run fast enough for NFL coverage.

On the cutups I watched, Baum played zero ILB, and very rarely dropped into coverage. When he did, he was pretty bad at it per ILB standards (OK on the way lower OLB standards), rather stiff and clueless.

I suspect Baum can become a fine ILB....in a year or three. Not as a rookie, especially with time to practice it cut to bare minimum. Just because he has the testing numbers doesn't mean he can automatically read keys, pick the right holes to plug and not get fooled by sophisticated NFL-level misdirection. He does not have CMIIIs extensive NFL experience before making the move.

If you want an ILB who can play as a rookie, there are a LOT better options. For a developmental high-ceiling guy who can crush on STs and double as an emergency pass rusher as a rookie, Baum's your man.

[NCF]

It's not a good sign if you can't stay clean for the most important testing day of a prospect's spring.

They can background check this pretty easily. I am willing to bet Baun doesn't even smoke and it truly was over-hydrating. My thoughts are this does absolutely nothing to his draft stock. Certainly doesn't help him in any way, but also does nothing to move him down the board.

[salmar80]

It's not a good sign if you can't stay clean for the most important testing day of a prospect's spring.

They can background check this pretty easily. I am willing to bet Baun doesn't even smoke and it truly was over-hydrating. My thoughts are this does absolutely nothing to his draft stock. Certainly doesn't help him in any way, but also does nothing to move him down the board.

Yeah, the minimum this did is to get teams digging deep into that. If there's no fire to the smoke, his stock may not take much of hit, if any. If there is something to it, we'll see it on draft days.

Watching other sports, "hyperhydration" does come up regularly as an excuse. It's generally not a good idea to do it even if you're clean, since you know there's a drug test coming and the diluted sample resulting from it will get flagged. If Baum didn't know that, he should fire whomever suggested it.

[Pckfn23]

On the cutups I watched, Baum played zero ILB, and very rarely dropped into coverage. When he did, he was pretty bad at it per ILB standards (OK on the way lower OLB standards), rather stiff and clueless.

I suspect Baum can become a fine ILB....in a year or three. Not as a rookie, especially with time to practice it cut to bare minimum.

Ya, I think he could become an ILB at some point. How good, I am not sure. He didn't do much at all in the way of ILB work (dropping into coverage, starting at the 2nd level, etc...) at UW.

[Yoop]

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/zack-baun ... 6079e71b79

Ascending prospect whose explosive production on the field has begun to mirror his explosive athletic traits. Baun's twitchy get-off and deep bend at the edge is nightmare fuel for Big Ten tackles and he's still at the early stages of pass rush development. He is aggressive to flow downhill in run support, has sideline-to-sideline range and is fluid dropping into coverage. He's strong but a little light as an edge-setter so teams will need to figure out how best to align him. Baun is a scheme-diverse linebacker with high-impact potential whose best days are ahead of him.

Zierlein likes him, so do others, some have him 1st round, some early 2nd, most say he's the number 4 lber, Zierlein rates him above Murray, the point is the consensus opinion is that he will play lber, he may split time in and out, but he'll play it.
he even compares him to Kyle Van Noy

[NCF]

Zierlein likes him, so do others, some have him 1st round, some early 2nd, most say he's the number 4 lber, Zierlein rates him above Murray, the point is the consensus opinion is that he will play lber, he may split time in and out, but he'll play it.
he even compares him to Kyle Van Noy

I think 4-3 teams are going to like him better than 3-4 teams, though.

[salmar80]

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/zack-baun ... 6079e71b79

Ascending prospect whose explosive production on the field has begun to mirror his explosive athletic traits. Baun's twitchy get-off and deep bend at the edge is nightmare fuel for Big Ten tackles and he's still at the early stages of pass rush development. He is aggressive to flow downhill in run support, has sideline-to-sideline range and is fluid dropping into coverage. He's strong but a little light as an edge-setter so teams will need to figure out how best to align him. Baun is a scheme-diverse linebacker with high-impact potential whose best days are ahead of him.

Zierlein likes him, so do others, some have him 1st round, some early 2nd, most say he's the number 4 lber, Zierlein rates him above Murray, the point is the consensus opinion is that he will play lber, he may split time in and out, but he'll play it.
he even compares him to Kyle Van Noy

Yoop, I know.

Baum's a great prospect. Simmons is even better. The ONLY issue is whether Baum and/or Simmons can play ILB year 1. I thought you wanted instant impact at the position, or am I missing something?

Those scouting reports are written watching him as an edge rusher, not as an ILB. He's fluid in coverage....for an OLB. NOT as an ILB. Also, scouting reports don't prioritize year 1 impact, rather they take a long time view. Kyle Van Noy did NOTHING in his first two years. Would you be willing to wait until 2022 for Baum to flourish as an ILB?

Do you think NFL OCs would have mercy on a rookie switching positions? NO! If Baum doesn't miraculously develop the entire toolbox for an ILB with minimal training, opponents will exploit that to the fullest extent. With Simmons, if ILB doesn't work, you can plug him at SS. With Baum, well, another OLB is not exactly max impact.

[Yoop]

Zierlein likes him, so do others, some have him 1st round, some early 2nd, most say he's the number 4 lber, Zierlein rates him above Murray, the point is the consensus opinion is that he will play lber, he may split time in and out, but he'll play it.
he even compares him to Kyle Van Noy

I think 4-3 teams are going to like him better than 3-4 teams, though.

I think so to, Prisco I think it's him has him going to NE at 23 or the 24 slot, but then teams don't run a lot of base any more, so I'am thinking that he would be a pretty good fit in either, DC's like a guy they can move around, and when people say stuff like he's to light to defend the edge they forget that on average teams run the ball less then 50% of the time, and he had 12 sacks last year against big 10 tackles, so there is no reason he can't do that at this level to.

I'am not that high on the guy for us, I want a little more speed, but if we where to take him I'am pretty confident that he'll play up to that slot, he's also smart, use to be a QB, that translates to being able to read defenses, as well as understanding how to read a offense, and GM's elevate a rating because of those ability's, as I said, we should not be shocked if a GM reaches a bit for a guy like Baum.

[Yoop]

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/zack-baun ... 6079e71b79

Ascending prospect whose explosive production on the field has begun to mirror his explosive athletic traits. Baun's twitchy get-off and deep bend at the edge is nightmare fuel for Big Ten tackles and he's still at the early stages of pass rush development. He is aggressive to flow downhill in run support, has sideline-to-sideline range and is fluid dropping into coverage. He's strong but a little light as an edge-setter so teams will need to figure out how best to align him. Baun is a scheme-diverse linebacker with high-impact potential whose best days are ahead of him.

Zierlein likes him, so do others, some have him 1st round, some early 2nd, most say he's the number 4 lber, Zierlein rates him above Murray, the point is the consensus opinion is that he will play lber, he may split time in and out, but he'll play it.
he even compares him to Kyle Van Noy

Yoop, I know.

Baum's a great prospect. Simmons is even better. The ONLY issue is whether Baum and/or Simmons can play ILB year 1. I thought you wanted instant impact at the position, or am I missing something?

Those scouting reports are written watching him as an edge rusher, not as an ILB. He's fluid in coverage....for an OLB. NOT as an ILB. Also, scouting reports don't prioritize year 1 impact, rather they take a long time view. Kyle Van Noy did NOTHING in his first two years. Would you be willing to wait until 2022 for Baum to flourish as an ILB?

Do you think NFL OCs would have mercy on a rookie switching positions? NO! If Baum doesn't miraculously develop the entire toolbox for an ILB with minimal training, opponents will exploit that to the fullest extent. With Simmons, if ILB doesn't work, you can plug him at SS. With Baum, well, another OLB is not exactly max impact.

I got ya, and Baum would not be my choice at the 30 slot, but I expect him to go shortly after.

Simmons will either start the first game or shortly later at ILB, he's played enough of it as well as SS to know what to look for on offense to get himself in the proper position to defend whatever a offense does, your making his transition to the pro game sound as though he'll need a year to learn how it's done, same with Baum, and I think your making this more complicated then it is., we'll see what GM's think about this in a week.

to me the only way Simmons drops out of the top 5 is that QB's and OL push him down, about the same with Baum dropping out of the first, teams will simply rate other position with higher priority, as we probably will taking a WR over a lber.

[Pckfn23]

Who is this Baum guy? Is his first name Tannen?

[salmar80]

Who is this Baum guy? Is his first name Tannen?

First name is Wunder, and don't you forget it!

[Pckfn23]

Who is this Baum guy? Is his first name Tannen?

First name is Wunder, and don't you forget it!

[Yoop]

both Simmons and Baun will be drafted to play ILB, both will play ILB, the pudding will be served sometime during the coming season.

sal: would you pass on Simmons to be your ILB, you keep beating this he's a project to put there stuff with 23, are you both willing to pass on him to play that position over any other player in this class? I want you to commit to this so I can come back and laugh at the both of you later

[salmar80]

both Simmons and Baun will be drafted to play ILB, both will play ILB, the pudding will be served sometime during the coming season.

sal: would you pass on Simmons to be your ILB, you keep beating this he's a project to put there stuff with 23, are you both willing to pass on him to play that position over any other player in this class? I want you to commit to this so I can come back and laugh at the both of you later

Let's make a bet:

If Simmons is a full-time starter for 10 games or more as an off-ball linebacker* (definition below) for any team as a rookie, I will eat a whole family serving of nasty traditional Finnish Easter pudding called "mämmi" that is illustrated below, film it and share it with y'all. And no, I'm not used to it. I hate that .

If Simmons is not a full-time starter for 10 or more games as an off-ball linebacker* for any team as a rookie, I will ship that tasty pudding to you at your expense, and you will eat it, film it and share it with us all. We'll teach you how to do so.

Bet?

*Off-ball linebacker can mean an ILB in 3-4 system or any of the three off-ball linebacker positions in a 4-3 system. Snaps as a safety (even in the box) or as an edge rusher are not considered at all. "Full-time starter" means being in top 11 in snaps for the defense. 10 game limit applies only to the regular season, no post-season games apply.

Here's the prize, MÄMMI:

[NCF]

Put your money where your mouth is, [mention]Yoop[/mention]!!

[Yoop]

both Simmons and Baun will be drafted to play ILB, both will play ILB, the pudding will be served sometime during the coming season.

sal: would you pass on Simmons to be your ILB, you keep beating this he's a project to put there stuff with 23, are you both willing to pass on him to play that position over any other player in this class? I want you to commit to this so I can come back and laugh at the both of you later

Let's make a bet:

If Simmons is a full-time starter for 10 games or more as an off-ball linebacker* (definition below) for any team as a rookie, I will eat a whole family serving of nasty traditional Finnish Easter pudding called "mämmi" that is illustrated below, film it and share it with y'all. And no, I'm not used to it. I hate that .

If Simmons is not a full-time starter for 10 or more games as an off-ball linebacker* for any team as a rookie, I will ship that tasty pudding to you at your expense, and you will eat it, film it and share it with us all. We'll teach you how to do so.

Bet?

*Off-ball linebacker can mean an ILB in 3-4 system or any of the three off-ball linebacker positions in a 4-3 system. Snaps as a safety (even in the box) or as an edge rusher are not considered at all. "Full-time starter" means being in top 11 in snaps for the defense. 10 game limit applies only to the regular season, no post-season games apply.

Here's the prize, MÄMMI:

why not just make the traditional avatar bet, if thats the degree you want to go to? I didn't say he wouldn't be moved around, I said he'll be drafted to play mostly ILB, he will get a ILB number and he'll be listed as a ILB for the team that drafts him.

[NCF]

I want to see someone eat the poop pudding.

[Yoop]

I want to see someone eat the poop pudding.

well that someone wont be me

I don't get why anyone would think that Simmons can't play and do well pretty quick at any lber spot, specially when he's done so much of both in the box hybrid, and out of the box coverage, just because he was used a lot with the later shouldn't take away that he does the former well to, the guy knows how to read offenses, only missed 6% of his tackle attempts last year, that he has multi positional skills is a bonus, not a limitation, imo Simmons is the most ready to play prospect in this draft class, and I said that a month ago, if I had the top pick it would be hard for me to pass on Simmons.

[salmar80]

why not just make the traditional avatar bet, if thats the degree you want to go to? I didn't say he wouldn't be moved around, I said he'll be drafted to play mostly ILB, he will get a ILB number and he'll be listed as a ILB for the team that drafts him.

I'm so confident that we can modify the bet so that if you win, you can send me some traditional but nasty local "delicacy" of your choice, and I will eat or drink it on video.

No one cares about listed numbers, your whole claim is Simmons actually being ready to play at ILB as a rookie .

All along, me and 23 have been saying Simmons is a movable piece as a rookie, with potential to develop into a full-time ILB with time.

Now, if you don't believe in your opinion worth a pudding, then I guess we can do an avatar bet. If you lose, I'll make the nastiest poop pudding avatar for you. If I lose, you find a nasty one for me. Much less fun, but also less bother.

[BF004]

I'm going to... gulp... agree with Mike on this one.

On both accounts.

I might be for Baun being an edge defender in a 3-4, but that diluted urine sample is troubling. If true that he was just loading up on water, he is likely no where near 238, which is troubling. On the other end, doesn't mean not edge, but if you can't have self control for about 3-4 weeks for the biggest job interview of your life with millions of dollars on the table, regardless of whether it should or not be allowed, is also worrisome. I think he's an off-ball LB. That part doesn't fit into this discussion, but just wanted to say that.

I feel like the definition of a LB got confusing to me as written by sal, but I will say I would expect probably 80+ % of Simmons snaps to be at LB if not basically all of them. Although logic tells me if you move a TE or RB split out and a LB goes out to line up over them, that is still a LB to me, that's just his responsibility for that play. Not interested in arguing semantics and defining words and what not, so not interested in a bet. But I think he's an LB through and through.

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I'll grab a shower to get this feeling off me.