Cheese Curds - 2020 - News Around The League

[go pak go]

Yeah, Lupe is wrong on this, completely. Might work in Madden.


Maybe if you are absolutely guaranteed a new coaching staff and/or FO, there is so much benefit in winning and ending the year well.


Saw some study about teams last 4 games of the season being a huge predictor to next seasons record. You build a team by building confidence, buying into the coaching staff, progressing yourself, over a span of years. Not trying to sacrifice player and coaching development trying to move from pick 12 to pick 6.

It completely depends on the situation. For the Giants, rooting against them now is stupid as was showcased yesterday. The Giants just beat a big time team with a backup quaterback. That means their current roster is on the rise. That means their program is on the rise. You absolutely want that.

I was so excited in 2006 when we finished with 4 straight to go 8-8 because our team was buidilng.

However, the 2018 Packers is the other side of the spectrum. If Crosby hits that FG vs AZ. We beat the crappy Falcons and Jets and somehow sneak in as a wildcard and lose because our team was clearly fledgeling...we don't get good draft picks. We don't get MLF.

There is a time for both. I think honestly for all teams in the East, you would have wanted to see a victory for all their games until it clearly becomes too late.

[Pckfn23]

Tanking is never called for, nor would it ever work in the NFL. Again, WAY too many part. Teams don't actually do it.

[go pak go]

Tanking is never called for, nor would it ever work in the NFL. Again, WAY too many part. Teams don't actually do it.

The Jets ownership is doing it.

The coaches and players aren't. But tanking absolutely happens at a certain level. Gase wouldn't be coach still if the Jets really wanted to win because he clearly is a loser. So even though tanking on a game by game doesn't happen, tanking on a larger trend does.

And getting into game specifics is missing the point.

[Pckfn23]

Tanking is never called for, nor would it ever work in the NFL. Again, WAY too many part. Teams don't actually do it.

The Jets ownership is doing it.

The coaches and players aren't. But tanking absolutely happens at a certain level. Gase wouldn't be coach still if the Jets really wanted to win because he clearly is a loser. So even though tanking on a game by game doesn't happen, tanking on a larger trend does.

And getting into game specifics is missing the point.

SO what is the endgame for tanking on a larger trend? The only way I see of making that happen is to trade away talent and also make poor picks. That in turn just makes the team worse and does not actually justify tanking to get a better draft slot.

[salmar80]

Again, what is stopping over half the league from joining you in your attempt at tanking?

IF people really believed high picks were such guaranteed game-changers, and IF tanking proved to be working, sooooo many teams would be tanking that you'd have to compete hard at sucking.

Greatest Loser Competition NFL style.

[YoHoChecko]

SO what is the endgame for tanking on a larger trend? The only way I see of making that happen is to trade away talent and also make poor picks. That in turn just makes the team worse and does not actually justify tanking to get a better draft slot.

I think what the Dolphins did a couple years ago--jettisoning a ton of players for picks, hiring a new HC, drafting your QB of the future with your top-5 pick, and giving your team a full 3-year window of rebuilding (one bad year, one developmental year, and one year seeking results) is precisely the plan people are discussing.

The Dolphins did it, they hired the right HC (who, ps, was my top choice for our job, but love MLF, no hate), and are ahead of schedule.

They absolutely did a management tank; where they strip away so many pieces that the players you have on the field are just overmatched. But they got tons of picks as a reward and they got their franchise QB (probably) with their pick from the down year.

It's hard to say the Jets are doing that because honestly, how much did they really jettison? Leonard Williams and Jamal Adams, sure. But they still went out and spent money going into this season to win now. They thought Darnold was going to be their guy. It's hard to say the team management is trying to tank the season when they clearly went into the season with some sort of expectations. Otherwise why pay Perriman $10M or whatever? They signed three OL starters.

I dunno; they've embraced it by now, certainly. Darnold doesn't look like the answer, they cut Bell and traded Williams during the season.... they're ready for Trevor. But they didn't set this season up to be the big tank year to make moves. It may work out for them, anyway, because they do have the extra 1st from Adams (only a 3rd and 5th for Williams, though) and they'll certainly be hiring a new HC to go with their new QB.

[go pak go]

I dunno; they've embraced it by now, certainly. Darnold doesn't look like the answer, they cut Bell and traded Williams during the season.... they're ready for Trevor. But they didn't set this season up to be the big tank year to make moves. It may work out for them, anyway, because they do have the extra 1st from Adams (only a 3rd and 5th for Williams, though) and they'll certainly be hiring a new HC to go with their new QB.

This is the part I was talking about. Unloading assets during the season and then honestly keeping Gase at the helm when it is clear he is incompetent for the job.

There is a decent history of interim coaches giving a sort of spark. The Jets management has decided to keep status quo and I think they are doing it for a reason while at the same time dumping assets and shopping assets during the season.

It isn't intentional losing or tanking. But it certainly isn't going all in to beat the Bills or Dolphins this year or whatever. Significant difference.

We saw the Vikings do it too until they saw Zimmer actually always does more with less and less with more and it actually started winning them games.

Coaches and players never think about tanking.
Management and owners should think about it and certainly not aid a sinking ship and rather get rid of assets with any value for the next regime.
And fans can fan how they want. There is certainly a time and a place to root against a team. I was full blown root against the Packers in 2017 and 2018 by November because it was very clear that we needed a new slate.

I am very happy we lost those games too because it played a part in what we are getting now.

[lupedafiasco]

Again, what is stopping over half the league from joining you in your attempt at tanking?

IF people really believed high picks were such guaranteed game-changers, and IF tanking proved to be working, sooooo many teams would be tanking that you'd have to compete hard at sucking.

Greatest Loser Competition NFL style.

Whats stopped every team from taking DK Metcalf in the first round? Just not being smart.

[lupedafiasco]

SO what is the endgame for tanking on a larger trend? The only way I see of making that happen is to trade away talent and also make poor picks. That in turn just makes the team worse and does not actually justify tanking to get a better draft slot.

I think what the Dolphins did a couple years ago--jettisoning a ton of players for picks, hiring a new HC, drafting your QB of the future with your top-5 pick, and giving your team a full 3-year window of rebuilding (one bad year, one developmental year, and one year seeking results) is precisely the plan people are discussing.

The Dolphins did it, they hired the right HC (who, ps, was my top choice for our job, but love MLF, no hate), and are ahead of schedule.

They absolutely did a management tank; where they strip away so many pieces that the players you have on the field are just overmatched. But they got tons of picks as a reward and they got their franchise QB (probably) with their pick from the down year.

It's hard to say the Jets are doing that because honestly, how much did they really jettison? Leonard Williams and Jamal Adams, sure. But they still went out and spent money going into this season to win now. They thought Darnold was going to be their guy. It's hard to say the team management is trying to tank the season when they clearly went into the season with some sort of expectations. Otherwise why pay Perriman $10M or whatever? They signed three OL starters.

I dunno; they've embraced it by now, certainly. Darnold doesn't look like the answer, they cut Bell and traded Williams during the season.... they're ready for Trevor. But they didn't set this season up to be the big tank year to make moves. It may work out for them, anyway, because they do have the extra 1st from Adams (only a 3rd and 5th for Williams, though) and they'll certainly be hiring a new HC to go with their new QB.

Yes the Jets are one of those dumb teams. They took Darnold, who was really the same thing as Brian Brhom. Average arm strength and didnt have the accuracy to overcome it. Average athleticism. Just average player across the board. Nothing special. They chose poorly. On top of that they picked Gase to coach the team which was unacceptable from the start. That guy isnt a leader. Hes a weirdo.

The Dolphins meanwhile landed a winner in Tua and retooled their team and in a year have completely turned the franchise around. You all cant stand the thought for a second that losing games isnt better for the team. Is it better for the league? Probably not but who the $%@# cares.

[bud fox]

Again, what is stopping over half the league from joining you in your attempt at tanking?

IF people really believed high picks were such guaranteed game-changers, and IF tanking proved to be working, sooooo many teams would be tanking that you'd have to compete hard at sucking.

Greatest Loser Competition NFL style.

Whats stopped every team from taking DK Metcalf in the first round? Just not being smart.

This is a good point because too often here the "I will trust the professionals". I know people in my job/sector that are moronic and it would be the same in NFL. DK was either a injury report mistake or people didn't watch his workouts as they were unbelievable.

[lupedafiasco]

Again, what is stopping over half the league from joining you in your attempt at tanking?

IF people really believed high picks were such guaranteed game-changers, and IF tanking proved to be working, sooooo many teams would be tanking that you'd have to compete hard at sucking.

Greatest Loser Competition NFL style.

Whats stopped every team from taking DK Metcalf in the first round? Just not being smart.

This is a good point because too often here the "I will trust the professionals". I know people in my job/sector that are moronic and it would be the same in NFL. DK was either a injury report mistake or people didn't watch his workouts as they were unbelievable.

Exactly. I work with pilots and I understand how the plane works better than they do. Just because someone has the job doesnt mean they are the best for it.

[Yoop]

being more concerned with the future, knowing your going to do a rebuild with new coaches, new regime and it's the last part of a losing season it's understandable to except losing, but thats a little different then having a losing season with only a few wins, and purposely losing the last few, as a fan I would never accept that, what fan would pay for season tickets knowing there paying to watch there team lose.

call me a clown, your in the very small minority thinking as you do, and thank god for that

and of course the league would come down hard if a team all of a sudden started to purposely lose, there are outside issues here with sports gambling, it's also why it's illegal for players to bet on games.

sure over the years teams with losing records new there would be coaching changes, and traded high priced vets to get under contract, Vegas could see that coming, and still those teams still played to win, at least most of the time, for the league to allow a team to purposely lose would destroy the league, as others have said thats contagious, you'd see a half doz teams do it every season, just great for the game, ehh?

[Pckfn23]

While hindsight is fun, it isn't a valid point. There are plenty of players who professionals miss on and plenty more the arm chair GM misses on. Ignoring the latter while highlighting the former doesn't make a strong case.

It's the same as berating the front office, saying the laymen would do better, but never actually putting any substance behind it. For example, not stepping up before the draft to put oneself out there and claim a player will or won't be good.

As for the Dolphins, I wouldn't say they tanked last year. Their block buster trade was 2 1st s and a 2nd for Tunsil and Still. Almost regardless of where the team is that deal is too good to pass up. The Texans were idiots.

[bud fox]

While hindsight is fun, it isn't a valid point. There are plenty of players who professionals miss on and plenty more the arm chair GM misses on. Ignoring the latter while highlighting the former doesn't make a strong case.

It's the same as berating the front office, saying the laymen would do better, but never actually putting any substance behind it. For example, not stepping up before the draft to put oneself out there and claim a player will or won't be good.

As for the Dolphins, I wouldn't say they tanked last year. Their block buster trade was 2 1st s and a 2nd for Tunsil and Still. Almost regardless of where the team is that deal is too good to pass up. The Texans were idiots.

Heaps of people do the bold - I am just not bothered to qualify it which I am sure is the position of most. I am not even bothered to go through my own posts.
On just this forum heaps put out there mocks or comment on a board projection etc.

[BF004]

Whats stopped every team from taking DK Metcalf in the first round? Just not being smart.

This is a good point because too often here the "I will trust the professionals". I know people in my job/sector that are moronic and it would be the same in NFL. DK was either a injury report mistake or people didn't watch his workouts as they were unbelievable.

Exactly. I work with pilots and I understand how the plane works better than they do. Just because someone has the job doesnt mean they are the best for it.

Don’t hurt yourselves there guys patting your own backs too hard now.

[Pckfn23]

And there in lies the issue: cherry picking, hindsight, and convenient forgetfulness. Many may do the bold, but almost all don't claim to be as good or better than the 32 guys who made this their livelihood. Does that in and of itself make all 32 of those guys good, because it is their livelihood? Yes, yes it does, because they are 1 of 32 guys who got the chance. They showed that they should get that chance. Does it mean they will ultimately succeed in the statistically improbable and win a Super Bowl? No, but it sure as hell doesn't mean there is a soul on this board that can do it better.

[go pak go]

And there in lies the issue: cherry picking, hindsight, and convenient forgetfulness. Many may do the bold, but almost all don't claim to be as good or better than the 32 guys who made this their livelihood. Does that in and of itself make all 32 of those guys good, because it is their livelihood? Yes, yes it does, because they are 1 of 32 guys who got the chance. They showed that they should get that chance. Does it mean they will ultimately succeed in the statistically improbable and win a Super Bowl? No, but it sure as hell doesn't mean there is a soul on this board that can do it better.

Conveniently don't hear much anymore how we should have drafted Fant instead of Gary like the rally cry was last October/November because of a few strong Fant games in fall 2019.

[Yoop]

And there in lies the issue: cherry picking, hindsight, and convenient forgetfulness. Many may do the bold, but almost all don't claim to be as good or better than the 32 guys who made this their livelihood. Does that in and of itself make all 32 of those guys good, because it is their livelihood? Yes, yes it does, because they are 1 of 32 guys who got the chance. They showed that they should get that chance. Does it mean they will ultimately succeed in the statistically improbable and win a Super Bowl? No, but it sure as hell doesn't mean there is a soul on this board that can do it better.

Conveniently don't hear much anymore how we should have drafted Fant instead of Gary like the rally cry was last October/November because of a few strong Fant games in fall 2019.

wtf does us fans second guessing our GM have to do with tanking games for better draft position, why do u always twist a convo into what it was never meant to be, specially when GM's screw up as often as they do, this conversation was about whether a GM should purposely lose games, the consensus here is NO, and not whether it was smarter to take Fant or Gary? didn't the DL out play both as a rookie? whatever, the meat of this convo concerned purposely losing football games.

[Raptorman]

Whats stopped every team from taking DK Metcalf in the first round? Just not being smart.

This is a good point because too often here the "I will trust the professionals". I know people in my job/sector that are moronic and it would be the same in NFL. DK was either a injury report mistake or people didn't watch his workouts as they were unbelievable.

Exactly. I work with pilots and I understand how the plane works better than they do. Just because someone has the job doesnt mean they are the best for it.

Well, how a plane works and how it flies are two totally different things.

[go pak go]

And there in lies the issue: cherry picking, hindsight, and convenient forgetfulness. Many may do the bold, but almost all don't claim to be as good or better than the 32 guys who made this their livelihood. Does that in and of itself make all 32 of those guys good, because it is their livelihood? Yes, yes it does, because they are 1 of 32 guys who got the chance. They showed that they should get that chance. Does it mean they will ultimately succeed in the statistically improbable and win a Super Bowl? No, but it sure as hell doesn't mean there is a soul on this board that can do it better.

Conveniently don't hear much anymore how we should have drafted Fant instead of Gary like the rally cry was last October/November because of a few strong Fant games in fall 2019.

wtf does us fans second guessing our GM have to do with tanking games for better draft position, why do u always twist a convo into what it was never meant to be, specially when GM's screw up as often as they do, this conversation was about whether a GM should purposely lose games, the consensus here is NO, and not whether it was smarter to take Fant or Gary? didn't the DL out play both as a rookie? whatever, the meat of this convo concerned purposely losing football games.

I don't know who DL is but I also didn't twist a conversation. Particularly I find it funny being accused of doing this from you who constantly turns my posts and threads into a "we need better WRs and the Packers are wasting AR's career...."

Tanking football games is kind of a pointless argument as I stated above because it doesn't happen. It can't happen. No player or coach, who controls the outcome of the micro-level, the game, is going to tank. There is absolutely zero reason for a coach or player to do so. The only time you could maybe see it happen is if a guy who is safe in his spot, like a star quarterback, doesn't throw the ball quite as nicely as he usually would.

But overall coaches and players on losing teams would not put on a bad product only to be fired or cut from that team in order to help the bad team get a good draft pick. Why would the coach or player care? They are going to be hopefully employed elsewhere so tanking only puts on worse film and resume for them and helps their former employer in the long run.

GMs can certainly unload assets for any remaining value during the season. We see this a lot. If a team isn't there or needs a clean house....dump your assets to maximize value. That makes sense.

Fans can fan how they want to fan. I believe there are times to root against your team. I saw the writing the on the wall in 2018 and wanted Mason to miss that kick vs AZ. Mason making that kick would not solve the Packers problems. But missing that kick might have and we now see it did. I also rooted against us the rest of the year. I wished we would have lost to the Jets because we were losing all game and that comeback really didn't do anything long term for this franchise. However, picking 8th to 10th, which we would have if we lost, maybe would have let us draft the player we all wanted in Devin Bush. I certainly was happy to see Brett Hundley lose in week 17 in 2018 because Brett Hundley was not going to be a Packer in 2019. So again, I fan by looking more long term rather than short term celebration.

But there is a difference between a fan rooting that Hundley loses compared to Hundley intentionally losing. Because I assure Hundley did none of that. He was interviewing for his next job.