Cheese Curds - 2020 - News Around The League

[Yoop]

Whats stopped every team from taking DK Metcalf in the first round? Just not being smart.

This is a good point because too often here the "I will trust the professionals". I know people in my job/sector that are moronic and it would be the same in NFL. DK was either a injury report mistake or people didn't watch his workouts as they were unbelievable.

Exactly. I work with pilots and I understand how the plane works better than they do. Just because someone has the job doesnt mean they are the best for it.

duh, do they let you fly the planes? welcome aboard people, sorry to say our pilot has taken ill, however our Mechanic knows a little bit about the whole plane so he'll be your pilot tonight,dfghjktyuicghghhjk, thats the sound of the mad exodus of the passengers exiting the plane.

[Yoop]

Conveniently don't hear much anymore how we should have drafted Fant instead of Gary like the rally cry was last October/November because of a few strong Fant games in fall 2019.

wtf does us fans second guessing our GM have to do with tanking games for better draft position, why do u always twist a convo into what it was never meant to be, specially when GM's screw up as often as they do, this conversation was about whether a GM should purposely lose games, the consensus here is NO, and not whether it was smarter to take Fant or Gary? didn't the DL out play both as a rookie? whatever, the meat of this convo concerned purposely losing football games.

I don't know who DL is but I also didn't twist a conversation. Particularly I find it funny being accused of doing this from you who constantly turns my posts and threads into a "we need better WRs and the Packers are wasting AR's career...."

Tanking football games is kind of a pointless argument as I stated above because it doesn't happen. It can't happen. No player or coach, who controls the outcome of the micro-level, the game, is going to tank. There is absolutely zero reason for a coach or player to do so. The only time you could maybe see it happen is if a guy who is safe in his spot, like a star quarterback, doesn't throw the ball quite as nicely as he usually would.

But overall coaches and players on losing teams would not put on a bad product only to be fired or cut from that team in order to help the bad team get a good draft pick. Why would the coach or player care? They are going to be hopefully employed elsewhere so tanking only puts on worse film and resume for them and helps their former employer in the long run.

GMs can certainly unload assets for any remaining value during the season. We see this a lot. If a team isn't there or needs a clean house....dump your assets to maximize value. That makes sense.

Fans can fan how they want to fan. I believe there are times to root against your team. I saw the writing the on the wall in 2018 and wanted Mason to miss that kick vs AZ. Mason making that kick would not solve the Packers problems. But missing that kick might have and we now see it did. I also rooted against us the rest of the year. I wished we would have lost to the Jets because we were losing all game and that comeback really didn't do anything long term for this franchise. However, picking 8th to 10th, which we would have if we lost, maybe would have let us draft the player we all wanted in Devin Bush. I certainly was happy to see Brett Hundley lose in week 17 in 2018 because Brett Hundley was not going to be a Packer in 2019. So again, I fan by looking more long term rather than short term celebration.

But there is a difference between a fan rooting that Hundley loses compared to Hundley intentionally losing. Because I assure Hundley did none of that. He was interviewing for his next job.

you younger fans fans are a whole new breed, I drove to GB to watch my team play in december when we only had 3 wins the whole season, I went to root for them to win the 4th game, thousands of Packer fans did as well, and that went on for several decades, do you think fans would have continued doing so all those years if they had a inkling the team was tanking those games? of course not.

go count up the success of top ten draft picks, now compare that with players taken top 20 or top 30, yes the success ratio is higher, but not enough to tank games for, that you hoped we lost games to improve draft status doesn't even resonate with me, not even imaginable, sorry.

[go pak go]

you younger fans fans are a whole new breed, I drove to GB to watch my team play in december when we only had 3 wins the whole season, I went to root for them to win the 4th game, thousands of Packer fans did as well, and that went on for several decades, do you think fans would have continued doing so all those years if they had a inkling the team was tanking those games? of course not.

go count up the success of top ten draft picks, now compare that with players taken top 20 or top 30, yes the success ratio is higher, but not enough to tank games for, that you hoped we lost games to improve draft status doesn't even resonate with me, not even imaginable, sorry.

And that is completely fine. I will allow you to fan how you want to fan.

But then don't complain we didn't move up enough spots 18 months later to get a player who is now doing well. Absolutely Top 10 picks aren't a guaranteed hit rate. But Top 10 picks do have more draft value than a 25 pick. And more importantly, that 2nd round 10th pick is far better than a 2nd round 25 pick and on and on and on.

We were able to make the Jaire, Savage and Gary picks because of losing games and having strong draft capital. We were able to make our 2nd 1st round pick and move up to 21 for Savage because we had a low 3rd round pick to trade, we found a good trading partner and we already knew we were getting 3 players regardless in the first 2 days.

When you have more draft capital you can take more risks. It's similar to playing the stock market. A wealthy guy can kick my a$$ in the stock market because he can take more risks and make more picks. I can kick my own a$$ from 5 years ago because I now have more capital to play with than I did 5 years ago.

So yes. When left with the decision at the time, I know that a 2017 Browns win or 2018 Jets win won't really do much for me in 2022. But a little more capital to maybe get that player to put us over the top like the 2009 draft did....now that I will remember. So that's why I fan the way I fan.

Now take 2006 on the other side, we were building a team. Winning 4 straight to go from 4-8 to 8-8 likely didn't wouldn't mean playoffs. But it did mean we were building a solid roster with a new GM, Coach, and vision. And I strongly believe that run led us to 2007.

So depending on the situation, I can see fanning both ways in December.

[YoHoChecko]

When I'm rooting for a team that clearly isn't going to make the playoffs, my general rule is to root for the team during the game and against them during the week.

I hope that we win each individual game, but collectively I know it's better to drop them. It works for me. I just don't have it in me to watch the team I love play while actively hoping for failure. But I do have it in me to watch them lose and immediately tell myself what a benefit that is for the franchise.

[Pckfn23]

I drove all the way across the state to see a 3 win team play in January. It doesn't make me any more insightful than anyone else.

I will say that some unrealistic expectations have developed in the fan base over the years.

[Yoop]

you younger fans fans are a whole new breed, I drove to GB to watch my team play in december when we only had 3 wins the whole season, I went to root for them to win the 4th game, thousands of Packer fans did as well, and that went on for several decades, do you think fans would have continued doing so all those years if they had a inkling the team was tanking those games? of course not.

go count up the success of top ten draft picks, now compare that with players taken top 20 or top 30, yes the success ratio is higher, but not enough to tank games for, that you hoped we lost games to improve draft status doesn't even resonate with me, not even imaginable, sorry.

And that is completely fine. I will allow you to fan how you want to fan.

But then don't complain we didn't move up enough spots 18 months later to get a player who is now doing well. Absolutely Top 10 picks aren't a guaranteed hit rate. But Top 10 picks do have more draft value than a 25 pick. And more importantly, that 2nd round 10th pick is far better than a 2nd round 25 pick and on and on and on.

We were able to make the Jaire, Savage and Gary picks because of losing games and having strong draft capital. We were able to make our 2nd 1st round pick and move up to 21 for Savage because we had a low 3rd round pick to trade, we found a good trading partner and we already knew we were getting 3 players regardless in the first 2 days.

When you have more draft capital you can take more risks. It's similar to playing the stock market. A wealthy guy can kick my a$$ in the stock market because he can take more risks and make more picks. I can kick my own a$$ from 5 years ago because I now have more capital to play with than I did 5 years ago.

So yes. When left with the decision at the time, I know that a 2017 Browns win or 2018 Jets win won't really do much for me in 2022. But a little more capital to maybe get that player to put us over the top like the 2009 draft did....now that I will remember. So that's why I fan the way I fan.

Now take 2006 on the other side, we were building a team. Winning 4 straight to go from 4-8 to 8-8 likely didn't wouldn't mean playoffs. But it did mean we were building a solid roster with a new GM, Coach, and vision. And I strongly believe that run led us to 2007.

So depending on the situation, I can see fanning both ways in December.

for crip sakes you have a answer for everything, again tanking games for draft capitol is idiotic, you have no idea when a team will click and win a game or two which could get you into the play offs, and once there can duplicate 2010, by all accounts we where out of the running that year with all the injury's and according to you should have just kept losing to secure better drafting ability.

and we can move up for a targeted players in practically every draft class, we didn't purposely lose to take Gary or Jaire, and moving like we did for savage is a great example of the team taking advantage of our record, nothing more, teams do stuff like that every year, your using our failures to support this insane idea that if ya can't win out then tank for picks, we could have easily moved up for Justin Jefferson versus moving up for Love last year, it would have simply cost us a 3rd and flip of our first, and we wouldn't have needed to tank out to do so, thats how you improve the team, by making wise choices, Love will be holding a clip board 3 years from now, and that DT has produced results Gary is still dreaming about, and Fant was better last year as well, if a GM wants a targeted player he'll do whatever it takes to get him as Ted did with Mathews, to say he was able due to awarded prior season picks, whatever only helps, it's certainly not the only reason he made that decision

[Yoop]

When I'm rooting for a team that clearly isn't going to make the playoffs, my general rule is to root for the team during the game and against them during the week.

I hope that we win each individual game, but collectively I know it's better to drop them. It works for me. I just don't have it in me to watch the team I love play while actively hoping for failure. But I do have it in me to watch them lose and immediately tell myself what a benefit that is for the franchise.

sure, we probably all do this to some degree, but that is not what GPG is saying, we all understand the ramnifications of what a win might cost us concerning draft positioning, yet come game time we still root for the team to win, he actually said he roots for the team to lose, I see a big difference with both stances, It's about hope, either ya hope we win, or you hope we lose, there is no middle ground imo.

sure teams do a complete retooling at times where it appears there more intent on that rebuild then winning games, that happened to us (sorta) two years ago when we fired McCarthy with 4 games left, but I sure didn't get the impression we tried to lose games.

[YoHoChecko]

sure teams do a complete retooling at times where it appears there more intent on that rebuild then winning games, that happened to us (sorta) two years ago when we fired McCarthy with 4 games left, but I sure didn't get the impression we tried to lose games.

Yeah, the thing about trying to lose games in the NFL is just... it's hard.

You're not going to get 53 competitors to lay it down. Often (usually) in these situations, the coaches who are coaching are going to lose their jobs, anyway, so there's no benefit to the coach even if you could get him on board.

Think about all the rumors that the Patriots were tanking going into the season with no QB and having tons of COVID opt-outs. But yet here they are on a winning streak because even though BB knows that GM BB will benefit from a high pick, coach BB still wants to win.

The ONLY way to really "tank" is organizationally, depriving the coaches of the available talent on the field to win many games and back-filling it with a ton of young, unproven players who might develop into something that helps in the future but may not help the team win now.

So for any team that's just having an unexpected bad season and has been eliminated, you can say all you want "it's better off to lose now," but the coach is coaching for his job, the players are playing for future jobs, and the whole bunch are competitive egos who don't want to kill their pride.

In basketball, you have 5 players on the court at a time. You can bench one or two stars, and you're washed. In football, there's simply no way to make a team lose, even if one or two players quit on the team. Ultimately, that costs them more than the team, in most cases.

That's why I'm mixed on what the Jets are doing. They went into the year thinking they can win. Their biggest "tank" move (trading Adams) happened before they thought they were tanking. Getting mid-round picks for a young DL isn't much. Blitzing in a hail mary scenario certainly doesn't fit the bill (why would Gregg Williams want to help the 2021 Jets?). They're just a really bad team whose OL overhaul didn't work, QB didn't develop, defense regressed (was actually fine last year), had a disgruntled star (Adams), and a terrible head coach.

Bill Simmons did point out that the Jets close the season against New England and BB could keep a lot of "injured" players out to try and keep Lawrence out of the division. I wouldn't put it past him, but I don't think it's in his nature.

[Yoop]

sure teams do a complete retooling at times where it appears there more intent on that rebuild then winning games, that happened to us (sorta) two years ago when we fired McCarthy with 4 games left, but I sure didn't get the impression we tried to lose games.

Yeah, the thing about trying to lose games in the NFL is just... it's hard.

You're not going to get 53 competitors to lay it down. Often (usually) in these situations, the coaches who are coaching are going to lose their jobs, anyway, so there's no benefit to the coach even if you could get him on board.

Think about all the rumors that the Patriots were tanking going into the season with no QB and having tons of COVID opt-outs. But yet here they are on a winning streak because even though BB knows that GM BB will benefit from a high pick, coach BB still wants to win.

The ONLY way to really "tank" is organizationally, depriving the coaches of the available talent on the field to win many games and back-filling it with a ton of young, unproven players who might develop into something that helps in the future but may not help the team win now.

So for any team that's just having an unexpected bad season and has been eliminated, you can say all you want "it's better off to lose now," but the coach is coaching for his job, the players are playing for future jobs, and the whole bunch are competitive egos who don't want to kill their pride.

In basketball, you have 5 players on the court at a time. You can bench one or two stars, and you're washed. In football, there's simply no way to make a team lose, even if one or two players quit on the team. Ultimately, that costs them more than the team, in most cases.

That's why I'm mixed on what the Jets are doing. They went into the year thinking they can win. Their biggest "tank" move (trading Adams) happened before they thought they were tanking. Getting mid-round picks for a young DL isn't much. Blitzing in a hail mary scenario certainly doesn't fit the bill (why would Gregg Williams want to help the 2021 Jets?). They're just a really bad team whose OL overhaul didn't work, QB didn't develop, defense regressed (was actually fine last year), had a disgruntled star (Adams), and a terrible head coach.

Bill Simmons did point out that the Jets close the season against New England and BB could keep a lot of "injured" players out to try and keep Lawrence out of the division. I wouldn't put it past him, but I don't think it's in his nature.

BB is just so competitive it hardly seems his nature to ever NOT try to win, I think there is a certain level of respect that all players, coaches, and even GM's will naturally want to retain, and purposely losing tarnishes that, I agree about the Jets in that they tried there best to win, and Williams acted out in desperation, as idiotic as it was to only drop 3 or 4 in coverage, as we both know, coaches do desperate things often in attempts to win or simply succeed on any given play.

I'd imagine Bill would get more satisfaction knowing he was the last nail in the jets coffin to a winless season, I don't think he has any love for either of the NY teams

[Ghost_Lombardi]

If I remember right, the Colts pulled starters vs the Jags in the second half of game 17 in 2011. They lost 19 to 13, securing the #1, which was Andrew Luck. They then went to the playoffs multiple years in a row and I believe won their division multiple times.

[Drj820]

if you are not going to win more than about 4 games anyways, it absolutely helps to go ahead and tankat at the management level. The Dolphins are the latest example. Trade the players you can get good loot for, and make sure you draft high enough to go ahead and grab your QB of the future. 2 wins and 4 wins is the difference between being able to draft the top QB prospect, and drafting a project most years. Why would an owner not want to go ahead and grab a Trevor Lawrence?

[Packfntk]

[go pak go]

Eagles are going to beat the Saints.

[Ghost_Lombardi]

Usually a decent rookie QB is okay for 3 to 4 games until DCs get some film. Hopefully he can do something v the Saints.

[lupedafiasco]

This is a good point because too often here the "I will trust the professionals". I know people in my job/sector that are moronic and it would be the same in NFL. DK was either a injury report mistake or people didn't watch his workouts as they were unbelievable.

Exactly. I work with pilots and I understand how the plane works better than they do. Just because someone has the job doesnt mean they are the best for it.

duh, do they let you fly the planes? welcome aboard people, sorry to say our pilot has taken ill, however our Mechanic knows a little bit about the whole plane so he'll be your pilot tonight,dfghjktyuicghghhjk, thats the sound of the mad exodus of the passengers exiting the plane.

You laugh. If you’ve seen the &%$@ that I’ve seen in the air you wouldn’t be.

[williewasgreat]

I follow the Herm Edwards school of thought,"You play to win the game!"

[Crazylegs Starks]

I follow the Herm Edwards school of thought,"You play to win the game!"

I almost posted that same quote yesterday. I wish I could find Lombardi's full "run to win" quote. His version flowed better than the biblical version.

[BSA]

Lombardi's full "run to win" quote.

"We run to win, not just to be in the race"

[go pak go]

I follow the Herm Edwards school of thought,"You play to win the game!"

I almost posted that same quote yesterday. I wish I could find Lombardi's full "run to win" quote. His version flowed better than the biblical version.

Yup for sure. Coaches and Players need to have that mindset which nobody in this thread has disagreed with.

Absolutely nobody. The only time I can ever think of anyone suggesting a player tanking was to send a message to the GM back in 2018.

Management though can make higher level moves to give up on a season and look toward the future and fans can fan how they want to fan.

[Yoop]

I follow the Herm Edwards school of thought,"You play to win the game!"

I almost posted that same quote yesterday. I wish I could find Lombardi's full "run to win" quote. His version flowed better than the biblical version.

Yup for sure. Coaches and Players need to have that mindset which nobody in this thread has disagreed with.

Absolutely nobody. The only time I can ever think of anyone suggesting a player tanking was to send a message to the GM back in 2018.

Management though can make higher level moves to give up on a season and look toward the future and fans can fan how they want to fan.

Rodgers was tanking, remember him looking right at receivers, looking away, taking a sack, looking over at McCarthy afterward with that scoul he's so famous for which had to mean YOUR HISTORY coach

obviously this is a yooper conspiracy alert, and should be taken with two grains of salt sure did look like it at times though