2020 Positional Draft Talk - WR

[Pckfn23]

1. I never commented about how well or not the CB did, just the coverage as a whole and then the goal of the CB in that coverage.
2. The coverage dictates how to play the WR, not the speed of the WR. That the CB didn't didn't play a true press with a jam does not mean he was wrong.
3. No Cornerback would ever press by putting their hands on the arms of the receiver. They either punch the shoulder or chest.
4. The coverage also dictates whether he should backpedal at the snap or not. That did not backpedal right at the snap is not an indicate of poor play.
5. The cornerback can absolutely rely on deep middle help. There is a safety there that even shades to his side (the 1 WR side).
6. The cornerback was committing to running with with the outside release because he had low hole help (LB) and high hole help (S). He committed too early by biting on the initial steps, which is why Mims gained separation inside, but that was ok because of the help. Getting beat outside would have been very poor coverage as there is no help there. That he didn't true press with a jam or backpedal is not an indication of good or bad coverage as we don't know his intended technique there.
7. If you disagree with what you believe my conclusion was that is interesting, because my goal was NOT to raise Mims' ability...

I was not defending the CB, I was pointing out that the explanation in the video doesn't match with the coverage and is thus not an indication that Mims did something good with his release. As I said, I am not a WR expert. I do know backend defense, however. I didn't like the explanation for what the author was trying to conclude, that's it. So, I didn't accept that explanation as showing Mims was a good route runner. That's it. Take that as you will.

[Yoop]

1. I never commented about how well or not the CB did, just the coverage as a whole and then the goal of the CB in that coverage.
2. The coverage dictates how to play the WR, not the speed of the WR. That the CB didn't didn't play a true press does not mean he was wrong.
3. No Cornerback would ever press by putting their hands on the arms of the receiver. They either punch the shoulder or chest.
4. The coverage also dictates whether he should backpedal at the snap or not. That did not backpedal right at the snap is not an indicate of poor play.
5. The cornerback can absolutely rely on deep middle help. There is a safety there that even shades to his side (the 1 WR side).
6. The cornerback was committing to running with with the outside release because he had low hole help (LB) and high hole help (S). He committed too early by biting on the initial steps, which is why Mims gained separation inside, but that was ok because of the help. Getting beat outside would have been very poor coverage as there is no help there. That he didn't true press or backpedal is not an indication of good or bad coverage as we don't know his intended technique there.
7. If you disagree with what you believe my conclusion was that is interesting, because my goal was NOT to raise Mims' ability...

I was not defending the CB, I was pointing out that the explanation in the video doesn't match with the coverage and is thus not an indication that Mims didn't something good with his release. As I said, I am not a WR expert. I do know backend defense however. I didn't like the explanation for what the author was trying to conclude, that's it. So, I didn't accept that explanation as showing Mims was a good route runner. That's it. Take that as you will.

the CB was afraid of Mims, totally obvious, and it's a 4 receiver route, so he does not have designated over the top support, if he had, then he needs to respect Mims speed and jam him, and the first, very first thing your taught as a CB is to stay square till the receiver commits, which means you back peddle till he does, where the shoulders go, so goes the body, you absolutely have to get that right and the arms and hands are extended to ward off his, ya I know a little about the back end to, just because I learned it 50 years before you doesn't mean I forgot it all, a better job of playing CB and Mims don't look so good, that was the point.

[Pckfn23]

How can one tell that the cornerback was afraid of Mims?

He definitely has deep middle help and the safety even shades to his side, away from the 3 receiver side even. He does not have deep sideline help. It was never said he had designated help over the top, mean that they are bracketing Mims.

I agree, a CB does need to stay square. I even said he committed too early. Backpedaling is not something a cornerback needs to do to stay square. It just depends on the coverage. Sometimes they don't even need to stay square. Again, it just depends on the coverage. In this case the corner needs to respect the outside routes because there is no help there. That is what he did, a bit too much.

As a corner, you definitely do not want to extend your arms much at all. You want to punch or counter punch, but if you try to use your arms or hands too much, you are just going to get them swiped by the receiver. Hand fight as you are describing isn't useful.

Mims didn't look great. That was the whole point of my previous 2 posts. The explanation trying to say he did, did not match up with what was happening on the field. He made an outside/inside move on the CB and the corner got beat to the inside because he could as he had help there.

[salmar80]

[mention]Yoop[/mention] is there ANY early round wide receiver you don't like in this draft?

[Yoop]

How can one tell that the cornerback was afraid of Mims?

He definitely has deep middle help and the safety even shades to his side, away from the 3 receiver side even. He does not have deep sideline help. It was never said he had designated help over the top, mean that they are bracketing Mims.

I agree, a CB does need to stay square. I even said he committed too early. Backpedaling is not something a cornerback needs to do to stay square. It just depends on the coverage. Sometimes they don't even need to stay square. Again, it just depends on the coverage. In this case the corner needs to respect the outside routes because there is no help there. That is what he did, a bit too much.

As a corner, you definitely do not want to extend your arms much at all. You want to punch or counter punch, but if you try to use your arms or hands too much, you are just going to get them swiped by the receiver. Hand fight as you are describing isn't useful.

Mims didn't look great. That was the whole point of my previous 2 posts. The explanation trying to say he did, did not match up with what was happening on the field. He made an outside/inside move on the CB and the corner got beat to the inside because he could as he had help there.

I got the impression you where defending Mims, either way I still don't agree about the arms and hand work, it's always a hand battle because the goal is to get your arms and hands in front of that receiver, also 23, man coverage has nothing to do with back end support, thats why it's called man coverage, it sure doesn't dictate how you cover someone, as I said, the corner is not engaging, why? imo he is not because he does not have a designated over the top guy to back him up should his full press fail.

you and I have went back and forth on this many times during the Capers years, I often tried to explain why Capers preferred off man, one of those reasons is there is very little cushion for error when playing tight press against a faster opponent, and to do so is a big gamble without designated support, sure it happens, imo though mostly because the defense is unable to adjust, which could be the case here.

I think if ya watch that whole series, the TD a couple plays later and it's obvious this Corner is crapping razor blades, Mims owns him, both plays he simply lets mims go wherever Mims wants to go, and is instantly in the trail position, he would have done much better both times with a full jam..imho.

[Yoop]

@Yoop is there ANY early round wide receiver you don't like in this draft?

some more then others obviously, but no, not really, there all better then everyone we have not named Adams, I prefer the guys with run after the catch ability, quicks, over speed, but even that stuff isn't a game breaker, we have a few BB types like Higgins, so with slot 30 I'd rather a reager or Ayuik probably, or a Jefferson or Ruggs if available.

[salmar80]

@Yoop is there ANY early round wide receiver you don't like in this draft?

some more then others obviously, but no, not really, there all better then everyone we have not named Adams, I prefer the guys with run after the catch ability, quicks, over speed, but even that stuff isn't a game breaker, we have a few BB types like Higgins, so with slot 30 I'd rather a reager or Ayuik probably, or a Jefferson or Ruggs if available.

Well, I agree with you on this. There are plenty of opportunities to improve our WR corps, and about any early WR prospect would do that.

But I think you're doing the same thing as you did with AR during last season: Read ANY criticism of prospects as a condemnation of them, which is not at all what we (or at least I) mean. I'm not hell-bent on looking for things that would cause whichever WR to fail. I'm just pointing out things that they have to work on.

There are literally zero rookies who have nothing to improve upon. Even Chase Young, the consensus top talent of the draft, has 11 weaknesses listed on his NFL.com profile. Eleven. Yet even after pointing all of those out, he's still the top talent.

[Pckfn23]

still don't agree about the arms and hand work, it's always a hand battle because the goal is to get your arms and hands in front of that receiver,

The goal is to keep your body in front of the receiver in press. The ONLY way that can happen is if your feet take you there. Jamming helps, but that is not hand fighting, that is striking the shoulder or body of the receiver to redirect them. It's not a hand battle, a hand battle is useless at the line of scrimmage.

also 23, man coverage has nothing to do with back end support, thats why it's called man coverage, it sure doesn't dictate how you cover someone,

Man coverage absolutely needs to take into account where the help is. In the case of that video there is a safety playing deep middle and a LB playing short middle. The corner is playing man coverage, but he does have help in the middle of the field. He has no help at all along the sideline. This 100% dictates how you cover someone. The corner needs to honor the moves that take the receiver away from his help more than the moves that take the receiver toward his help. This is exactly what happen to the corner playing opposite of Mims.

Mims in the case of that play goes right where the help is. There is a LB that is able to undercut him and a safety over top while the corner is trailing to his outside. Not sure how much leeway the Baylor coaches gave him, but he would have been much better served faking the inside release and running a 9 along the sideline.

[Yoop]

still don't agree about the arms and hand work, it's always a hand battle because the goal is to get your arms and hands in front of that receiver,

The goal is to keep your body in front of the receiver in press. The ONLY way that can happen is if your feet take you there. Jamming helps, but that is not hand fighting, that is striking the shoulder or body of the receiver to redirect them. It's not a hand battle, a hand battle is useless at the line of scrimmage.

also 23, man coverage has nothing to do with back end support, thats why it's called man coverage, it sure doesn't dictate how you cover someone,

Man coverage absolutely needs to take into account where the help is. In the case of that video there is a safety playing deep middle and a LB playing short middle. The corner is playing man coverage, but he does have help in the middle of the field. He has no help at all along the sideline. This 100% dictates how you cover someone. The corner needs to honor the moves that take the receiver away from his help more than the moves that take the receiver toward his help. This is exactly what happen to the corner playing opposite of Mims.

Mims in the case of that play goes right where the help is. There is a LB that is able to undercut him and a safety over top while the corner is trailing to his outside. Not sure how much leeway the Baylor coaches gave him, but he would have been much better served faking the inside release and running a 9 along the sideline.

rather then just argue with you, I'd rather you just went and rewatched and then come and tell me that LBer has any chance to cover Mims, cripes by the time Mims goes inside that lber is already out of position to do any more then watch Mims go by, and that safety as you can see is already commited to the right side where the traffic is, your saying stuff that is not suppoorted when watching the play.
also you can play with the wording all you want, once the receiver has his arms and shoulders in front, it's all over, specially so if the receiver has the speeed advantage, so the Corner has to hand battle if neccesary to stop that, to think a corner shouldn't do that goes against what I was taught.

this is all I'll say on this subject.

[Pckfn23]

The linebacker isn't covering Mims. I never said the linebacker is covering Mims or would cover Mims. The linebacker is in the low hole. In other words he is playing the shallow middle zone. The linebacker is the actual reason why the QB does not throw it. The guy explaining the video even says that!

The safety slides to his left away from the 3 receiver side and more over top of Mims. He starts in the middle of the field and slides to the left hash (from the defensive perspective). He never moves to his right. He even ends up right over top of Mims.

Are you watching the correct video:

Right at that time marker. I really do not think you are watching the same clip, as you believe the safety is to his right...

Your "hand battle" explanation doesn't make a lot of sense. There is zero reason to strike any other part of the receivers body other than the shoulder or chest when jamming.

It would have been nice to see Mims run up the sideline against that coverage. Would have given the QB some place to throw.

[Yoop]

The linebacker isn't covering Mims. I never said the linebacker is covering Mims or would cover Mims. The linebacker is in the low hole. In other words he is playing the shallow middle zone. The linebacker is the actual reason why the QB does not throw it. The guy explaining the video even says that!

The safety slides to his left away from the 3 receiver side and more over top of Mims. He starts in the middle of the field and slides to the left hash (from the defensive perspective). He never moves to his right. He even ends up right over top of Mims.

Are you watching the correct video: right at that time marker. I really do not think you are watching the same clip...

Your "hand battle" explanation doesn't make a lot of sense. There is zero reason to strike any other part of the receivers body other than the shoulder or chest when jamming.

maybe I confused it with the TD play, now I have to rewatch, later though.....

I wont get into the hand battle cause I'll be the one yelled at for extending a conversation that others are not interested in hearing, but you go watch how often the corner has to use his arms and hands to get some leverage back in press coverage, dont worry it wont take long to see it.

[salmar80]

Great... Now you're arguing in discord about different plays about a receiver you both like.

Reading it is like hearing my nieces' first times with an out-of-tune mandolin and an out-of-tune balalaika... Melody is sound, but only cuteness saves it from being like starting with violins.

I think we've already established that [mention]Yoop[/mention] will take ANY wide receiver who pisses standing up, and [mention]Pckfn23[/mention] will never cease to criticize their urea speed, consistency, arc and accuracy...

I may have gone mad with the draft, finally. Sorry.

[Yoop]

@Yoop is there ANY early round wide receiver you don't like in this draft?

some more then others obviously, but no, not really, there all better then everyone we have not named Adams, I prefer the guys with run after the catch ability, quicks, over speed, but even that stuff isn't a game breaker, we have a few BB types like Higgins, so with slot 30 I'd rather a reager or Ayuik probably, or a Jefferson or Ruggs if available.

Well, I agree with you on this. There are plenty of opportunities to improve our WR corps, and about any early WR prospect would do that.

But I think you're doing the same thing as you did with AR during last season: Read ANY criticism of prospects as a condemnation of them, which is not at all what we (or at least I) mean. I'm not hell-bent on looking for things that would cause whichever WR to fail. I'm just pointing out things that they have to work on.

There are literally zero rookies who have nothing to improve upon. Even Chase Young, the consensus top talent of the draft, has 11 weaknesses listed on his NFL.com profile. Eleven. Yet even after pointing all of those out, he's still the top talent.

come on now, the criticism for Rodgers was over the top, all QB's miss wide open receivers, they can't always have pocket awareness and see all 3 or 4 routes, the easiest thing for a fan (any observer) is to pick a QB's game apart, and that went on for the last 30 games with Rodgers.

I've seen this coming for 4 years, basically Rodgers has had Adams as the only consistent receiver during that span, when Graham is the next most reliable, that should be all the info you need to realize just how tough Rodgers has had it, yes a wounded Cobb was around for a year of it, point is this, when the quality of the catchers decreases it also affects the quality ya get from the thrower, hell Sal, we all know this stuff if where honest, yet I would get such back lash whenever I would try and defend Rodgers, what made it worse is that u's guys (half hearted chuckle) used players ( the Stooges) to try and blame Rodgers, so I rest my case here sorta, I mean no one is breaking down our door begging a trade for any catchers in our bull pen.

[bud fox]

Mims basically just runs post routes and pushes off the CB to make every catch.

Considering Metcalf fell to the bottom of the 2nd I dont know how anyone could take Mims before the 3rd round.

[lupedafiasco]

I really don’t see the purpose in making WR the first pick. You don’t need a #1. All you need is someone who can catch 60 balls and is reliable. If you get better than that in the 2nd or 3rd round then it is a bonus but we don’t need to go crazy and get one of these high profile WRs.

[BF004]

Mims basically just runs post routes and pushes off the CB to make every catch.

Considering Metcalf fell to the bottom of the 2nd I dont know how anyone could take Mims before the 3rd round.

How is this the consensus?

I literally have watched no NFLN and haven’t ready any reports, so I don’t know who or what is saying that. But feel like anyone saying that is just parroting someone and hasn’t watched him, like at all.

[bud fox]

Mims basically just runs post routes and pushes off the CB to make every catch.

Considering Metcalf fell to the bottom of the 2nd I dont know how anyone could take Mims before the 3rd round.

How is this the consensus?

I literally have watched no NFLN and haven’t ready any reports, so I don’t know who or what is saying that. But feel like anyone saying that is just parroting someone and hasn’t watched him, like at all.

No idea what you are trying to say - are you saying you haven't watched anything? His tape isn't good period. Pushing off every catch is an exaggeration but he does it a lot.

[BF004]

I watched him a lot, probably more than anyone else in this class right now. But didnt watch any nfl network breakdowns or read any nfl draftnetwork or Walter summaries about him.

I don’t see ‘pushing off’. I see a good physicality on a select few plays, not many, but physicality I like. I love aggression when the ball is in the air. Plenty of separation on a lot of plays.

Have just heard this echoed from a few people that he doesn’t get separation and only pushes off. Just few like that isn’t coincidence . Just wondering where this opinion is coming from.

[Chilli]

[Yoop]

I watched him a lot, probably more than anyone else in this class right now. But didnt watch any nfl network breakdowns or read any nfl draftnetwork or Walter summaries about him.

I don’t see ‘pushing off’. I see a good physicality on a select few plays, not many, but physicality I like. I love aggression when the ball is in the air. Plenty of separation on a lot of plays.

Have just heard this echoed from a few people that he doesn’t get separation and only pushes off. Just few like that isn’t coincidence . Just wondering where this opinion is coming from.

I've watched a couple more vids, and I think the guy in the last vid (you brought) said it best, it's not so much the pushing off, it's that he simply makes a lot of contact with the DB, and while he was able to get away with it in college, the Refs in the NFL are stricter concerning contact, thats about it, but heck I bet thats true of a lot of a lot of college receivers, NFL coaching will correct some of that, lis, often the negative remarks are taken from a few bad plays, rinse and repeat.