Joe Barry reportedly to be hired as DC

[BSA]

I think that our concern is not necessarily that ANY edge is EVER dropped into coverage... but that we have players who are BAD at coverage and GOOD at pass rush that are being used that way.

Thx and I can appreciate that concern and in an ideal world, it would be different...But what's the alternative for the 2021 Packers ?
If you invest a draft pick on a different OLB who is "good at coverage", but less of a threat pass rushing - are we actually a better defense ? There are only a few guys on this planet who can do everything well- and they are all drafted before GB gets a shot. Given our current roster, somebody has to drop and #91 is the best of the bunch (unless we can find Von Miller 2.0 in the 3rd round)

Preston Smith is the poster boy for fans griping about pass rushers dropping into coverage - but his long arms definitely caused QBs to alter their throws or choose a different receiver and he also had 4 passes defensed last year. Meanwhile our starting nickel had 6 passes defensed and Sullivan was in coverage for 10x the plays that Smith was.

Is Preston actually "bad" in zone coverage in terms of what he's being asked to do ? Compared to other OLBs ?
I don't know , I tend to think he's not as bad as some suggest - but that's just my opinion. I don't have film/stats to back that up

However- If we all agree PSmith's best quality is going forward, then 3 questions arise:

1) How do you disguise that if he never drops and never stunts ?
2) Who else on this roster is a better option for that role ?
3) Would the Packers defense actually improve by investing in another OLB/ Edge who can cover "better" ?
.

[go pak go]

I agree with everything BPA says; I think that our concern is not necessarily that ANY edge is EVER dropped into coverage... but that we have players who are BAD at coverage and GOOD at pass rush that are being used that way.

I have little issue with a guy like Justin Hollins or Lorenzo Carter--two players I advocated for us drafting--to play that sort of role. But if a guy who's more of a DL/EDGE hybrid than an EDGE/LB hybrid is doing it, then you get head scratchers.

So getting someone to use in more of a Von Miller role--SLB on early downs, EDGE rusher on passing downs--or a good space LB with a lot of edge blitzing experience in college might be in the cards, despite how wild it would be to keep investing in "pass rushers."

+1.

I too get the tactic. And I don't worry about the DT dropping in coverage because it doesn't happen that often and can be used as a surprise. But we dropped Preston in coverage often last year. And it just didn't make sense to do so. We got burned by it quite a bit too so I wouldn't say the offense was surprised by it and didn't know what to do.

[Yoop]

I agree with everything BPA says; I think that our concern is not necessarily that ANY edge is EVER dropped into coverage... but that we have players who are BAD at coverage and GOOD at pass rush that are being used that way.

I have little issue with a guy like Justin Hollins or Lorenzo Carter--two players I advocated for us drafting--to play that sort of role. But if a guy who's more of a DL/EDGE hybrid than an EDGE/LB hybrid is doing it, then you get head scratchers.

So getting someone to use in more of a Von Miller role--SLB on early downs, EDGE rusher on passing downs--or a good space LB with a lot of edge blitzing experience in college might be in the cards, despite how wild it would be to keep investing in "pass rushers."

+1.

I too get the tactic. And I don't worry about the DT dropping in coverage because it doesn't happen that often and can be used as a surprise. But we dropped Preston in coverage often last year. And it just didn't make sense to do so. We got burned by it quite a bit too so I wouldn't say the offense was surprised by it and didn't know what to do.

did we get burned with P Smith dropping? I'am asking because I don't remember it happening enough so that I would remember.

it is a learned skill set, Gary is very athletic, I'am sure with minimal training he can learn to drop and cover a zone, same for P. Smith or Z or even Keke, doing stuff like that doesn't require 4 years of college ball to learn, no way I'd be on board with drafting a OLB to do that stuff.

most football analyst ( including Herman) think that Martin has a bright future, and Barnes is no slouch either, both looked pretty good as rookie starters, so to me we'd be better off concentrating on a coverage player and a full size DT.

I can close my eyes and without any difficulty at all picture BJ Raji running that shirtless 40 the excess body mass flying two and fro with each stride, now if BJ can learn to drop in a zone, I'am sure Barry can tutor up our DL boys to do so too

[go pak go]

I agree with everything BPA says; I think that our concern is not necessarily that ANY edge is EVER dropped into coverage... but that we have players who are BAD at coverage and GOOD at pass rush that are being used that way.

I have little issue with a guy like Justin Hollins or Lorenzo Carter--two players I advocated for us drafting--to play that sort of role. But if a guy who's more of a DL/EDGE hybrid than an EDGE/LB hybrid is doing it, then you get head scratchers.

So getting someone to use in more of a Von Miller role--SLB on early downs, EDGE rusher on passing downs--or a good space LB with a lot of edge blitzing experience in college might be in the cards, despite how wild it would be to keep investing in "pass rushers."

+1.

I too get the tactic. And I don't worry about the DT dropping in coverage because it doesn't happen that often and can be used as a surprise. But we dropped Preston in coverage often last year. And it just didn't make sense to do so. We got burned by it quite a bit too so I wouldn't say the offense was surprised by it and didn't know what to do.

did we get burned with P Smith dropping? I'am asking because I don't remember it happening enough so that I would remember.

I feel like if you search the TB vs GB 1st game thread you are going to find a lot of frustrated people on some Preston Smith drop backs. But I too can't remember them specifically.

[Pckfn23]

That was Andre Smith...

[BSA]

But we dropped Preston in coverage often last year. And it just didn't make sense to do so. We got burned by it quite a bit too so I wouldn't say the offense was surprised by it and didn't know what to do.

How do other 3-4 defenses resolve this problem ? Who should be covering ? And how do you know what the offense knew/didn't know ?

I'm not trying to be a wanker here - I genuinely want to understand this issue from your POV because you're not alone in making that assertion.
In a vacuum, sure - don't drop Preston. But we're not in a vacuum - we're in a zero sum game where either Preston does it, somebody else does it or the guy is wide open. What's the solution that the fans can see, but Pettine, Staley and Barry don't ?

Here's an article describing why the Rams # 1 defense paid up to resign Leonard Floyd:

https://www.si.com/nfl/rams/news/la-ram ... ss-rusher

"The Rams like that Floyd is a complete player that also affects the game as a rangy defender who can set the edge in the run game and make plays as a linebacker dropping back into coverage." “We felt like in that position it evolved there last year, it’s more than just an edge rusher,” Rams general manager Les Snead said. “Leonard’s a special athlete with instincts to play the run game, set edges, the athletic ability to run games along that front seven. You have to be athletic. You have to be able to have the instincts to run those games and run those plays and have that AA to close and finish those games and be more than just a disruptor.

“And then there’s the element of him being able to be tough in coverage and someone that quarterbacks have to shoot over, because he is tall and long when he does drop back."

[Pckfn23]

The issue is not that an OLB or lineman drops into coverage, it is that Preston Smith was so bad at it last year and did it so much. We dropped him too much, so it became predictable and he was not very good at it. Plus I believe we had him man up on TEs at times. Being more unpredictable at who was dropping may have helped, but that's hard when Preston Smith was also so bad at pass rush last season. In short, I don't think it is zone blitzing that people are angry about, but Preston Smith.

[BSA]

In short, I don't think it is zone blitzing that people are angry about, but Preston Smith.

Thank you

[lulu]

I could see the arguement that Savage is the best young safety the Packers have had. You didn't really start seeing Collins make a jump until his 3rd year (2007) but he still dropped so many interceptions. Collins dropped a bit in performance in 2008 (remember the Aaron Rouse over Nick Collins stupid rants?) And then Collins exploded in 2009 and 2010.

To be fair, I always thought the early-career critiques of Collins were overblown and misguided. Yes, he dropped INTs. But he had good PDs and excellent advanced metric coverage grades. Like Top Ten coverage grades while fans were still chirping about him being a disappointment.

This was more of a fan perception thing--Collins was selected in the same draft that brought in Rodgers when fans were angry about that. He was considered by ESPN and other major outlets to be a reach by at least 2 rounds (despite Ozzie Newsome going on the record that the Ravens were going to select him).

TT was new and he made fans angry and they didn't trust him. So they insisted that Collins wasn't good enough until they literally couldn't make that argument anymore. But he was always good. The narrative of "TT wasted his entire first draft" because Rodgers was on the bench, Collins wasn't good enough, and Murphy busted his spine was too rich for Collins' play to overcome.

Collins flashed in his first few seasons but made plenty of missteps to make you wonder if he'd ever turn it around. He obviously did but was not a sure thing early on.

[NCF]

I could see the arguement that Savage is the best young safety the Packers have had. You didn't really start seeing Collins make a jump until his 3rd year (2007) but he still dropped so many interceptions. Collins dropped a bit in performance in 2008 (remember the Aaron Rouse over Nick Collins stupid rants?) And then Collins exploded in 2009 and 2010.

To be fair, I always thought the early-career critiques of Collins were overblown and misguided. Yes, he dropped INTs. But he had good PDs and excellent advanced metric coverage grades. Like Top Ten coverage grades while fans were still chirping about him being a disappointment.

This was more of a fan perception thing--Collins was selected in the same draft that brought in Rodgers when fans were angry about that. He was considered by ESPN and other major outlets to be a reach by at least 2 rounds (despite Ozzie Newsome going on the record that the Ravens were going to select him).

TT was new and he made fans angry and they didn't trust him. So they insisted that Collins wasn't good enough until they literally couldn't make that argument anymore. But he was always good. The narrative of "TT wasted his entire first draft" because Rodgers was on the bench, Collins wasn't good enough, and Murphy busted his spine was too rich for Collins' play to overcome.

Collins flashed in his first few seasons but made plenty of missteps to make you wonder if he'd ever turn it around. He obviously did but was not a sure thing early on.

The Aaron Rouse fetish was prior to 2008. Collins fully broke out in 2008. In fact, that was his career high in interceptions. He made the Pro Bowl. He became the dominant player he would be for the next three seasons. There was no drop in performance in 2008. Absolutely everything YoHo said about advanced metrics showed exactly what we should have expected.

[go pak go]

To be fair, I always thought the early-career critiques of Collins were overblown and misguided. Yes, he dropped INTs. But he had good PDs and excellent advanced metric coverage grades. Like Top Ten coverage grades while fans were still chirping about him being a disappointment.

This was more of a fan perception thing--Collins was selected in the same draft that brought in Rodgers when fans were angry about that. He was considered by ESPN and other major outlets to be a reach by at least 2 rounds (despite Ozzie Newsome going on the record that the Ravens were going to select him).

TT was new and he made fans angry and they didn't trust him. So they insisted that Collins wasn't good enough until they literally couldn't make that argument anymore. But he was always good. The narrative of "TT wasted his entire first draft" because Rodgers was on the bench, Collins wasn't good enough, and Murphy busted his spine was too rich for Collins' play to overcome.

Collins flashed in his first few seasons but made plenty of missteps to make you wonder if he'd ever turn it around. He obviously did but was not a sure thing early on.

The Aaron Rouse fetish was prior to 2008. Collins fully broke out in 2008. In fact, that was his career high in interceptions. He made the Pro Bowl. He became the dominant player he would be for the next three seasons. There was no drop in performance in 2008. Absolutely everything YoHo said about advanced metrics showed exactly what we should have expected.

When I say 2008...I mean Aaron Rouse fetish during Training Camp 2008.

[APB]

Collins flashed in his first few seasons but made plenty of missteps to make you wonder if he'd ever turn it around. He obviously did but was not a sure thing early on.

The Aaron Rouse fetish was prior to 2008. Collins fully broke out in 2008. In fact, that was his career high in interceptions. He made the Pro Bowl. He became the dominant player he would be for the next three seasons. There was no drop in performance in 2008. Absolutely everything YoHo said about advanced metrics showed exactly what we should have expected.

When I say 2008...I mean Aaron Rouse fetish during Training Camp 2008.

You remember conversations from 2008 training camp? I need some of those vitamins you’re taking...

[YoHoChecko]

Y'all, Brandon Staley was WILD with his scheme. I dunno if Barry has it in him to fully replicate the multiplicity here, nor if our LBs are necessarily up for it, but I'm VERY excited about the different fronts we can utilize and different ways we can use/move Clark, Z, and Gary to maximize 1-on-1 matchups.

https://weeklyspiral.medium.com/nfl-fil ... 161f7f6506 - article version with gifs and graphics

You have to give this a look.

- video version

[BSA]

You have to give this a look.

that's fantastic and one of the comments was that "the Rams defense was one of the best in run fits and gap integrity"
Music to my ears. thx for posting

[YoHoChecko]

Olivia Reiner: If you sat me down to describe the philosophy of Joe Barry's defense, what would you teach me?

Amos: We want to disguise, we want to be aggressive. Ya know, the things he's harping on is details, getting to the ball, being great in fundamentals. Be great and sound in fundamentals, communication. All those little things that makes a great defense.

Generic, but ya know...

[go pak go]

I mean didn't Pettine say he wanted to keep it simple too so people didn't have to think?

New DC same message.

[Yoop]

Olivia Reiner: If you sat me down to describe the philosophy of Joe Barry's defense, what would you teach me?

Amos: We want to disguise, we want to be aggressive. Ya know, the things he's harping on is details, getting to the ball, being great in fundamentals. Be great and sound in fundamentals, communication. All those little things that makes a great defense.

Generic, but ya know...

once he puts Savage at the STAR this defense will rock and roll, till then

I think using more 50 front will help Lowery, Keke, etc, Clark is our only DL that can excel in any front, the others need help, less double chips will free them up, I'am excited for what Barry will do.

[Yoop]

I mean didn't Pettine say he wanted to keep it simple too so people didn't have to think?

New DC same message.

IMO the only difference between Capers and Pettine where better players, hopefully Barry can take them to the next level.

[YoHoChecko]

once he puts Savage at the STAR this defense will rock and roll, till then

I do think it's pretty funny that after all this baseless speculation talk about Savage in the star by the Green Bay media that became so widespread it almost started sounding like reporting instead of speculation....

...Adrian Amos got Star reps and Savage played the whole day at safety in the OTA open practice.

Obviously too early to make any concrete statements, but it did give me a chuckle.

[YoHoChecko]

Also worth noting that Summers was playing ahead of Martin