Plant Your Flag

[Yoop]

seriously now, please name the SB winners that only had a competent QB?

In the last decade, Philly, Denver (yes, Denver), Baltimore, and NYG. Made it to the SB with competent QB play: 49ers, Rams, 49ers.

thing is most of those mediocre QB's played above there norm during those SB runs, and down play Manning all you want but he was mistake free and ran that offense well, the NY Giants had one of the best defenses in the last 20 years, lis, everything else concerning the team has to be very good, and it's impossible to keep the defense and other facets together, so when that declines, your mediocre QB will not be able to carry the team, people really down play what Rodgers was able to accomplish the 5 or 6 years prior to last season.

[Pckfn23]

I dont really buy that there was much debate inside the building on whether Rodgers was going to be the guy or not. He may have needed time, but I think everybody including Brett Favre knew pretty early on that Rodgers was going to be the next guy. I

We don't need to look any further than Brian Brohm to see that we were not TOTALLY convinced Aaron Rodgers could be the guy or be healthy.

In the summer of 2006 I doubt may were convinced that Aaron Rodgers would be the guy. By the summer of 2007 it was still up in the air, but by the summer of 2008 I would say the general consensus would be he was ready to go. That was 3 normal seasons worth of time. Right now Love has had 1 truncated offseason.

I disagree, I think most fans had seen enough good stuff from Rodgers in 07 that he could eventually take over from Favre and do well, but most fans still thought Favre was better, that doesn't mean fans lacked faith in Rodgers.

lis prior to Yoho, unless you have a Rodgers most QB's are not given more then two groom years, heck many never get one year.

What did we see from Rodgers in 2006 that would have led us to believe he was definitely the guy for 2007?

I think the first HUGE indicator was 2007 Dallas where he played better than Favre.

[NCF]

seriously now, please name the SB winners that only had a competent QB?

In the last decade, Philly, Denver (yes, Denver), Baltimore, and NYG. Made it to the SB with competent QB play: 49ers, Rams, 49ers.

thing is most of those mediocre QB's played above there norm during those SB runs, and down play Manning all you want but he was mistake free and ran that offense well, the NY Giants had one of the best defenses in the last 20 years, lis, everything else concerning the team has to be very good, and it's impossible to keep the defense and other facets together, so when that declines, your mediocre QB will not be able to carry the team, people really down play what Rodgers was able to accomplish the 5 or 6 years prior to last season.

Manning was mistake free to the tune of 9 TD's and 17 INT's on the season. Of course the rest of the team has to be good... that's the whole $%@# point here. Rodgers HASN'T carried the team because the rest of the team hasn't been good enough. It's not all about the QB. It just isn't.

[Yoop]

lis prior to Yoho, unless you have a Rodgers most QB's are not given more then two groom years, heck many never get one year.

Most teams are run by idiots. In Rodgers case he was already being written off at the end of 2008 as a guy that couldn't close out games. I agree with you that patience runs out eventually, but as long as the player still seems to be trending up, stick with your guy.

by who? you, I didn't right Rodgers off, and most team are not run by idiots either, they install rookie QB's because the rookie is better then any other QB on the roster.

and GPG is off base as well, Rodgers was not holding the ball high in 07, gessus do you guys just make stuff up to show that Rodgers was worse then what we see from Love right now? he wasn't, he was more ready as a rookie, people are confusing that situation to somehow support Love now, Love dropped because he is physically not ready, Rodgers fell because of his snotty and smug attitude, or at least thats what I remember.

[Pckfn23]

lis prior to Yoho, unless you have a Rodgers most QB's are not given more then two groom years, heck many never get one year.

Most teams are run by idiots. In Rodgers case he was already being written off at the end of 2008 as a guy that couldn't close out games. I agree with you that patience runs out eventually, but as long as the player still seems to be trending up, stick with your guy.

by who? you, I didn't right Rodgers off, and most team are not run by idiots either, they install rookie QB's because the rookie is better then any other QB on the roster.

and GPG is off base as well, Rodgers was not holding the ball high in 07, gessus do you guys just make stuff up to show that Rodgers was worse then what we see from Love right now? he wasn't, he was more ready as a rookie, people are confusing that situation to somehow support Love now, Love dropped because he is physically not ready, Rodgers fell because of his snotty and smug attitude, or at least thats what I remember.

Do you realize you are doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing, but in reverse?

There was little indication that Aaron Rodgers was ready to play in the summer of 2006, just as there is little indication that Jordan Love is ready to play in the summer of 2021.

[BF004]

I mean, sure I can flip coins too, but I would just have absolutely nothing I am basing my decision off of.

While true, you have already done this and your answer is undoubtedly no. May be based on nothing, but something is leaning you that way. Dig a little deeper and figure out why that is.

I don't think so at all. When I 'plant my flag' into something, I like to be able to revisit that in a few years and see my conviction (OBJ3, AJ Brown, Marquise Lee sucks, etc.).

I literally have no conviction on Love, seeing him throw a few passes year 1 in a Gary Anderson lead offense, 2 years ago, does nothing to give me confidence or lack there of.

[BF004]

Rodgers was not holding the ball high in 07

I am not sure what constitutes 'high'. But I would definitely say 'higher'.

2007:


2019:

[Yoop]

We don't need to look any further than Brian Brohm to see that we were not TOTALLY convinced Aaron Rodgers could be the guy or be healthy.

In the summer of 2006 I doubt may were convinced that Aaron Rodgers would be the guy. By the summer of 2007 it was still up in the air, but by the summer of 2008 I would say the general consensus would be he was ready to go. That was 3 normal seasons worth of time. Right now Love has had 1 truncated offseason.

I disagree, I think most fans had seen enough good stuff from Rodgers in 07 that he could eventually take over from Favre and do well, but most fans still thought Favre was better, that doesn't mean fans lacked faith in Rodgers.

lis prior to Yoho, unless you have a Rodgers most QB's are not given more then two groom years, heck many never get one year.

What did we see from Rodgers in 2006 that would have led us to believe he was definitely the guy for 2007?

I think the first HUGE indicator was 2007 Dallas where he played better than Favre.

that's basically what I said, but even in 06 Rodgers never looked flustered, and Ted taking Brohm was simply covering the bases, if you can remeber we didn't have a backup for Rodgers, but just look at what a terrible choice Brohm was, Ted didn't do his homework with that pick.

all I hear is people trying to say that Love= Rodgers as rookies, and that is so lame, only a couple teams where in the market for a QB in that draft, now and for the last doz years 4 or 5 QB's go off the board in the first 40 picks if not the first 30, big difference.

people stuck with Favre back then just as there wise to stick with Rodgers for the next 3 years if possible.

the proof is in the pudding, I just brought data that shows even #1 picked QB have only 50/50 odds of being successful

[BF004]

all I hear is people trying to say that Love= Rodgers as rookies,

Where have you heard that?

[Yoop]

I am not sure what constitutes 'high'. But I would definitely say 'higher'.

still lower then even, or above the shoulder from his days at Cal I remember from years ago, McCarthy weened him from that his first training camp.

don't take me wrong, I hope the best for LOve, I really do, but I wish we didn't have to play him this year, as Yoho said, more decent QB's are ruined because there forced to play to soon

[Yoop]

all I hear is people trying to say that Love= Rodgers as rookies,

Where have you heard that?

just look at a few post above, when people say Rodgers wasn't ready as a rookie or even his second season, there saying that maybe Love is, what it amounts to is this, Love = Rodgers

who knows, Favre was still very good, just as Rodgers is still very good, but Rodgers came into this league rated far higher then Love was, it's telling when Rodgers was Favres backup his first year, and Love never even suited for a game.

[Pckfn23]

I disagree, I think most fans had seen enough good stuff from Rodgers in 07 that he could eventually take over from Favre and do well, but most fans still thought Favre was better, that doesn't mean fans lacked faith in Rodgers.

lis prior to Yoho, unless you have a Rodgers most QB's are not given more then two groom years, heck many never get one year.

What did we see from Rodgers in 2006 that would have led us to believe he was definitely the guy for 2007?

I think the first HUGE indicator was 2007 Dallas where he played better than Favre.

that's basically what I said

Then you agree, not disagree...

all I hear is people trying to say that Love= Rodgers as rookies, and that is so lame

That's weird because that hasn't been said...

people stuck with Favre back then just as there wise to stick with Rodgers for the next 3 years if possible.

Favre had yet to actually retire in the spring of 2006...

[YoHoChecko]

Rodgers dropped in the draft because a Jeff Tedford-coached QB had never succeeded in the league and too many people didn't trust that his Tedford mechanics could be fixed and/or that his college production wasn't just the result of Tedford's offense the same way all those Texas Tech guys put up huge numbers in college and turned out to be Graham Harrells--better coaches than players.

Rodgers didn't have any elite pedigree--a non-recruit who went to JuCo. He had two years of success with a coach who had made Akili Smith and Joey Harrington look like stars. And he was part of a very weak QB class. Yoop, you make a good point that he was considered one of a 2-man class at the top, but remember also that Jason Campbell went one pick later in a move the WFT traded up to get. And in 2004 3 QBs went in the top 11 and a 4th later in the first round. The league was not LESS QB-crazed then. Teams were reaching just as much. JP Lossman went higher in 2004 than Aaron Rodgers went in 2005. J.P. Lossman.

Yeah, there were issues with his arrogance or demeanor, but that's not why a QB falls to 24. The fact is that teams weren't willing to take the early risk on him BECAUSE he had a ton of work to do to un-Tedford himself. Rodgers still, to this day, insists that MM "barely touched his mechanics" because Rodgers has always been incapable of accepting fault (I say this without judgement; just an observation). But it is plain to the eyes that he carried the ball and moved with the ball and adjusted in the pocket MUCH differently by the time he got into live games than he did in rookie and even second-year camps.

Jordan Love fell for many of the same reasons, but sort of in reverse. The fact that he was QB4 and Rodgers was QB2 in their draft classes does not matter. As I said, the league was already just as QB crazy then as they are now. Love fell because while we saw his arm talent on display in 2018, his 2019 tape indicated that he didn't take any more steps forward, that he hadn't corrected any mechanical flaws, and that he hasn't proven that he can read defenses and make the right decision. Maybe 2018 was just that his offense was running so smoothly and efficiently that any talented college QB could put up big numbers, but when things go off schedule, he forces it and doesn't have the mechanical and mental framework to adapt and adjust.

While Rodgers was viewed as overly mechanical and over-coached, Love was viewed as under-mechanical and under-coached. Both require major reclamation projects and that's why both slipped despite obviously possessing elite arm talent.

I don't need to see or hear about "wow" plays from Love in camp or OTAs because I don't WANT him doing that. Those plays, which he made plenty of in college, are the ones he needs to forget right now to focus on doing things right more consistently. He needs to be better at the short to intermediate game. When the beat reporters say "he was 7 for 10 in both team periods but hit nothing deep and seemed to do a lot of checking down" I am overjoyed because that shows that Love is being patient and playing within the system and not trying to force things. He is utilizing the exact method of QB development I laid out above--getting into a rhythm, doing the little things right, moving the ball efficiently, and building a comfort and confidence.

I don't KNOW if he can continue to build off of that nor do I know if he would go 7 for 10 in team periods that are more full speed. But I do know that being drafted in the mid-twenties of the first round, even many years apart, shows a similarity in the way teams (at least our team) valued the player. I know that the inverse issues of being overly mechanical or under-coached present a similar challenge in development in terms of time and process to make corrections; and I know that MLF runs an offense that helps QBs succeed, and he has seen his QBs succeed in each step of his career, from RGIII to Matt Ryan to Jared Goff to Marcus Mariota's highest ever completion percentage to Aaron Rodgers.

Love is in good hands. He's got a TON of work to do. And the scheme and his own patience are both signs pointing in positive directions. Let him get comfortable. IF he has to play before he's ready, we need to reign in the offense and give him easier throws. That will limit us to an extent, but it's in our long-term benefit to keep this guy confident, upright, comfortable, and efficient more so than it is to push for big plays and rush his dynamism.

Sorry, I have a LOT to say about QB development, it seems.

[NCF]

just look at a few post above, when people say Rodgers wasn't ready as a rookie or even his second season, there saying that maybe Love is, what it amounts to is this, Love = Rodgers

Certainly isn't what I'm saying nor what I am interpreting others saying. It's in your head, though, so I guess we're going to continue hearing about it, aren't we?

[Yoop]

Rodgers dropped in the draft because a Jeff Tedford-coached QB had never succeeded in the league and too many people didn't trust that his Tedford mechanics could be fixed and/or that his college production wasn't just the result of Tedford's offense the same way all those Texas Tech guys put up huge numbers in college and turned out to be Graham Harrells--better coaches than players.

Rodgers didn't have any elite pedigree--a non-recruit who went to JuCo. He had two years of success with a coach who had made Akili Smith and Joey Harrington look like stars. And he was part of a very weak QB class. Yoop, you make a good point that he was considered one of a 2-man class at the top, but remember also that Jason Campbell went one pick later in a move the WFT traded up to get. And in 2004 3 QBs went in the top 11 and a 4th later in the first round. The league was not LESS QB-crazed then. Teams were reaching just as much. JP Lossman went higher in 2004 than Aaron Rodgers went in 2005. J.P. Lossman.

Yeah, there were issues with his arrogance or demeanor, but that's not why a QB falls to 24. The fact is that teams weren't willing to take the early risk on him BECAUSE he had a ton of work to do to un-Tedford himself. Rodgers still, to this day, insists that MM "barely touched his mechanics" because Rodgers has always been incapable of accepting fault (I say this without judgement; just an observation). But it is plain to the eyes that he carried the ball and moved with the ball and adjusted in the pocket MUCH differently by the time he got into live games than he did in rookie and even second-year camps.

Jordan Love fell for many of the same reasons, but sort of in reverse. The fact that he was QB4 and Rodgers was QB2 in their draft classes does not matter. As I said, the league was already just as QB crazy then as they are now. Love fell because while we saw his arm talent on display in 2018, his 2019 tape indicated that he didn't take any more steps forward, that he hadn't corrected any mechanical flaws, and that he hasn't proven that he can read defenses and make the right decision. Maybe 2018 was just that his offense was running so smoothly and efficiently that any talented college QB could put up big numbers, but when things go off schedule, he forces it and doesn't have the mechanical and mental framework to adapt and adjust.

While Rodgers was viewed as overly mechanical and over-coached, Love was viewed as under-mechanical and under-coached. Both require major reclamation projects and that's why both slipped despite obviously possessing elite arm talent.

I don't need to see or hear about "wow" plays from Love in camp or OTAs because I don't WANT him doing that. Those plays, which he made plenty of in college, are the ones he needs to forget right now to focus on doing things right more consistently. He needs to be better at the short to intermediate game. When the beat reporters say "he was 7 for 10 in both team periods but hit nothing deep and seemed to do a lot of checking down" I am overjoyed because that shows that Love is being patient and playing within the system and not trying to force things. He is utilizing the exact method of QB development I laid out above--getting into a rhythm, doing the little things right, moving the ball efficiently, and building a comfort and confidence.

I don't KNOW if he can continue to build off of that nor do I know if he would go 7 for 10 in team periods that are more full speed. But I do know that being drafted in the mid-twenties of the first round, even many years apart, shows a similarity in the way teams (at least our team) valued the player. I know that the inverse issues of being overly mechanical or under-coached present a similar challenge in development in terms of time and process to make corrections; and I know that MLF runs an offense that helps QBs succeed, and he has seen his QBs succeed in each step of his career, from RGIII to Matt Ryan to Jared Goff to Marcus Mariota's highest ever completion percentage to Aaron Rodgers.

Love is in good hands. He's got a TON of work to do. And the scheme and his own patience are both signs pointing in positive directions. Let him get comfortable. IF he has to play before he's ready, we need to reign in the offense and give him easier throws. That will limit us to an extent, but it's in our long-term benefit to keep this guy confident, upright, comfortable, and efficient more so than it is to push for big plays and rush his dynamism.

Sorry, I have a LOT to say about QB development, it seems.

I remember reading that SF chose Smith over Rodgers mostly because they thought Rodgers would be harder to train, McCarthy even said he felt better in meetings with Smith then Rodgers, and Rodgers said it had always been a issue between he and Mike.

I remember reading articles back then where scouts and even GM's said Rodgers was the better QB and SF screwed up, and that proved to be true, Rodgers didn't get a chance to prove himself sooner because we had iron man Favre, which yes, did help Rodgers grow into the speed of the NFL game, and maybe/hopefully we are able to do the same for Love, but just like back then, minus Favre we'd have been forced to play Aaron sooner, and I think I'd have liked Rodgers chances then, then I do Loves now, hopefully I don't have to find out.

I've always felt the Tedford stuff was over blown, 004 just brought a pic of Rodgers holding the ball almost indentical from 06 tp 019, so as I said if he had been holding it higher from Cal, it didn't take long for him to correct it

[YoHoChecko]

I remember reading that SF chose Smith over Rodgers mostly because they thought Rodgers would be harder to train, McCarthy even said he felt better in meetings with Smith then Rodgers, and Rodgers said it had always been a issue between he and Mike.

I remember reading articles back then where scouts and even GM's said Rodgers was the better QB and SF screwed up, and that proved to be true, Rodgers didn't get a chance to prove himself sooner because we had iron man Favre, which yes, did help Rodgers grow into the speed of the NFL game, and maybe/hopefully we are able to do the same for Love, but just like back then, minus Favre we'd have been forced to play Aaron sooner, and I think I'd have liked Rodgers chances then, then I do Loves now, hopefully I don't have to find out.

I've always felt the Tedford stuff was over blown, 004 just brought a pic of Rodgers holding the ball almost indentical from 06 tp 019, so as I said if he had been holding it higher from Cal, it didn't take long for him to correct it

I don't think you're wrong. I just think "harder to train" has as much if not more to do with his overly mechanical nature than his personality.

The Tedford thing was overblown because Rodgers was a better QB than Harrington and Akili Smith, even comparing what they did in college under Tedford. But it was NOT overblown in that both Harrington and Smith, trained by Tedford, picked in the top 10, went into the NFL unprepared and washed out because they never fully got retrained to play without those habits and mechanics. It's not just a high-holding of the ball. It's a near roboticism of progression and movement. And there was a significant track record saying "guys from this system with this coaching flame out in the league."

You and I are right/were right to say "people are overblowing what that means for Rodgers' development" but you're incorrect if you think the Tedford thing is an overblown part of the story about WHY he fell. I was at the combine in 2005 with all the scouts and personnel people and the rumors and the chatter. The Tedford thing was real in the league, I can assure you.

[YoHoChecko]

I also want to say, and I know others will disagree....

If Rodgers was a team's day one starter as a rookie, I doubt he ever makes a Pro Bowl, let alone sniffs the Hall of Fame. I truly believe that. This is how firmly I believe in the power of development and easing a player into the most difficult position in football. Rodgers' legacy could just as easily be that of David Carr, the "can't-miss sure-fire" top pick who got crushed by the ineptitude of his supporting cast and never recovered.

[YoHoChecko]

To be fair to [mention]Yoop[/mention], my essay above was as close as you can get to saying "Love = Rodgers" as it gets. I'm basically saying their draft value, talent level, and development timelines are pretty darn similar, even if the reasons for the long development are sort of opposite.

And saying that their success and failure depend in large part ON that development timeline, not on the players' individual talent level.

I'm not saying anyone could be Rodgers or Mahomes, at all. But I am saying that Rodgers and Mahomes did not necessarily HAVE to end up as Rodgers and Mahomes and that with less development and worse coaching, I am saying neither Rodgers nor Mahomes would be who they are today, as players.

AND I'm saying that while not everyone can be Rodgers or Mahomes, most first round QBs CAN be, say, Derek Carr or Dak Prescott or gosh maybe even a Ryan Tannehill (his numbers have been insane the past 2 years, though, so I dunno)--starting-caliber players who can lead their teams to the playoffs and compete for Super Bowls... and that again, it's the development process that determines who is Derek Carr (solid QB) and who is JP Lossman (never got anywhere). And thus, how we handle Love in these first few years could keep an elite talent from every realizing that elite play. AND/OR could keep a solid, you-can-win-but-not-elite QB, from every realizing that potential as a solid starter rather than a washed out bust.

[go pak go]

I dont really buy that there was much debate inside the building on whether Rodgers was going to be the guy or not. He may have needed time, but I think everybody including Brett Favre knew pretty early on that Rodgers was going to be the next guy. I dont get the feeling that Love has convinced anyone that he will be ready eventually. Maybe he has, hard for us to know..just going off public reports.

I just don't think this is accurate. There are reports Mike Sherman did not like Rodgers and wanted Craig Nall as the #2 QB but felt pressure from the new GM to keep Rodgers as the backup.

2006 comes along, Rodgers looks a little better in 2006 preseason but then looks terrible vs his only snaps of the season vs New England before tearing his ACL. And I mean he looked terrible. MM praised Rodgers and his "QB school" but that was perceived as just coach talk at the time. Again people thought, "should we have kept Nall instead?" This was a legit conversation of why the Packers spent a 1st rounder on Rodgers when they already had the developmental quarterback who was less than 50% completion in 30 pass attempts and tore his ACL after playing like 1.5 quarters (remember we were used to ironman Favre)

2007 training camp rolls around after the 2nd QB school and then everyone is like "oh. okay" That is the first time you start hearing from coaches and the like that this kid is legit. Admittedly there had to be some 1265 love on Rodgers because there was rumors of Raiders wanting to trade Moss for Rodgers but that didn't happen. Of course that could also be that the trade market was a lot lower than Oakland thought as they only got a 4th rounder for Moss.

But I just don't think even the coaches know much about Love. Like he literally didn't practice. Being the #3 during a year when players can't even eat lunch by each other due to covid means Love never got reps.

So when they say "he's not ready"...it's because he never had a chance to get ready.

All the Rodgers stuff and "everyone knew" is easy to say now using hindsight. It's just like I hear "everyone knew Amazon or Tesla was going to be huge" and yet nobody who says that bought their stock in 2010 - 2014 because they said was it overvalued. So clearly they didn't really quite "know yet."

I think 1265 had reason for hope in 2006 and then by 2007 the internals were like "oh yeah. this kid is gonna be good". But right now Love isn't anywhere close to where Rodgers was after 2005 in terms of reps, etc.

AND, the Packer used two draft picks in 2008 on QBs, including the perceived 2007 #1 pick on Brian Brohm, just in case as competition for Rodgers. So even the Packers were hedging their bets pretty heavy. Just imagine what we would feel if the Packers used a 2nd rounder on a QB next draft. People would be flipping out and what that "means" the Packers view Love.

[Yoop]

I also want to say, and I know others will disagree....

If Rodgers was a team's day one starter as a rookie, I doubt he ever makes a Pro Bowl, let alone sniffs the Hall of Fame. I truly believe that. This is how firmly I believe in the power of development and easing a player into the most difficult position in football. Rodgers' legacy could just as easily be that of David Carr, the "can't-miss sure-fire" top pick who got crushed by the ineptitude of his supporting cast and never recovered.

well I don't know about, just look what the gunslinger Favre was able to do with baptism under fire, it's hard to say, the thing that I I saw with Rodgers in 06 PS was that he didn't seem to get raddled under pressure, he still needed to work on his progressions and the natural tunnel vision that most rookies have, but he had a calm about him that sets rookies apart.

I agree the pro game is soooo much faster then college, every rookie QB would be best served to sit at least one season, and thats why I don't want to see Love start this year, in fact If we lose Rodgers, I'd want Guty to go get a vet, I know we did with Bortles but he seems to act like he's in a comma, I think we could do better.

getting back to bust rate first round QB's even minus day one starters the success rate is terrible, so till Love proves me wrong I don't have a lot of confidence.