Rodgers wants out

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Where will Rodgers play next season?

Green Bay
21
62%
Cleveland
0
No votes
Las Vegas
1
3%
Miami
0
No votes
Indianapolis
0
No votes
Denver
11
32%
Seattle
0
No votes
Pittsburgh
1
3%
Houston
0
No votes
Washington
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 34

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Yoop
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Post by Yoop »

YoHoChecko wrote:
28 May 2021 08:35
There is no deal for Rodgers that I would accept that does not include a WR on a rookie contract to grow with Love. Our WR room is completely unsigned after this year. I’d rather have Juedy than Surtain but preferably both of them.

Like 23 said, trading him without receiving young starters makes no sense. Draft picks don’t help the team this year.

But also he’s an MVP who we don’t WANT to trade. If a team won’t offer what we want, we hold him. Period.
Yoho you are still trying to profit from this situation, and thats going to be the deal breaker, no one is going to win with Rodgers departure, not us, nor Rodgers, at best it's a amicable divorce, we get a couple first, etc. and a couple player, maybe a receiver not named Juedy, and Rodgers being able to duplicate what Tampa and Brady did year one is a real long shot, so it's not as though Rodgers and Denver win big right away either, for us, we'll have two first round picks the next two drafts, and possibly a couple seconds as well.

where ever Rodgers goes, that team isn't going to give up players Rodgers and that team will need to compete for the trophy, that would defeat the purpose of trading for Rodgers.

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Post by Acrobat »

Yoop wrote:
28 May 2021 08:55
YoHoChecko wrote:
28 May 2021 08:35
There is no deal for Rodgers that I would accept that does not include a WR on a rookie contract to grow with Love. Our WR room is completely unsigned after this year. I’d rather have Juedy than Surtain but preferably both of them.

Like 23 said, trading him without receiving young starters makes no sense. Draft picks don’t help the team this year.

But also he’s an MVP who we don’t WANT to trade. If a team won’t offer what we want, we hold him. Period.
Yoho you are still trying to profit from this situation, and thats going to be the deal breaker, no one is going to win with Rodgers departure, not us, nor Rodgers, at best it's a amicable divorce, we get a couple first, etc. and a couple player, maybe a receiver not named Juedy, and Rodgers being able to duplicate what Tampa and Brady did year one is a real long shot, so it's not as though Rodgers and Denver win big right away either, for us, we'll have two first round picks the next two drafts, and possibly a couple seconds as well.

where ever Rodgers goes, that team isn't going to give up players Rodgers and that team will need to compete for the trophy, that would defeat the purpose of trading for Rodgers.
Draft picks are technically profit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe one of the picks we received for Favre ended up being part of the package to move up and draft CM3. Considering the role CM3 had in the Super Bowl year and beyond, I'd say that Packers won that divorce, and we got far less compensation for Favre than we'd probably get for Rodgers, so it is possible to "win".

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Post by packman114 »

Make him hold a clipboard all year and run scout team. Still will get first round draft picks next year and less dead money to pay other guys.

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Post by Ghost_Lombardi »

packman114 wrote:
28 May 2021 08:58
Make him hold a clipboard all year and run scout team. Still will get first round draft picks next year and less dead money to pay other guys.
The team can't make him do anything.

And you don't tell or ask the MVP to hold a clipboard.

You'd lose the team by doing that.

Additionally, the plan to "trade him next year" exposes him to injury and a significant of not total loss of trade value.
Last edited by Ghost_Lombardi on 28 May 2021 09:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Yoop »

GREEN BAY - While the Aaron Rodgers-Green Bay Packers fracas has riled sportswriters and social media warriors, some fans have taken a more reasoned approach.

"I want to be an optimist about the season and I'd rather not spend a lot of time reading a lot of different stuff that's half true and half false," said Jeff Lanier, a season ticket holder from Allouez. "I'd like to focus on the positive things about this season. I think they're going to work it out with Aaron. I just think there's too much at stake for him and the team for them not to come to some sort of agreement."

these are the words I hear from most Packer fans, of course most fans don't converse at Packer forums, and there are so many conspiracy theory's floating about in the media most fans have tuned them out

average trade value for Rodgers is 2 first and a couple lesser draft picks, and maybe a player or two, and that is value, sure we could finagle that into a gem like Mathews, but that would be striking gold.

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Post by YoHoChecko »

Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 08:44

You are confusing leverage with value.

No trade = no return value. GB gets nothing and AR never plays again.

Trade = enormous return value. Multiple firsts and young, franchise calibre players.

There's only one good choice here, and it is obvious.
GB gets nothing and he never plays again? Well that’s a helluva leap to make based upon nothing.

No trade NOW means trade later. But even no trade now plus retirement means his contract is eliminated with no dead money from our cap, which does have relative value to nothing.

Also I’M not the one confusing leverage and value. He has no leverage to get traded because either scenario equals a withholding of labor from US, which accounts for the leverage.

The value return is a different question, but the option of “if we don’t trade him now we never get to trade him” is a fantasy of your own making. It is the heat likely outcome. Even if he retires, we get to trade him when he changes his mind and wants to return.

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Post by Yoop »

Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 09:02
packman114 wrote:
28 May 2021 08:58
Make him hold a clipboard all year and run scout team. Still will get first round draft picks next year and less dead money to pay other guys.
The team can't make him do anything.

And you don't tell or ask the MVP to hold a clipboard.

You'd lose the team by doing that.
I'am sure Packman was just being sarcastic, if not balif wack his pee pee :rotf:

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Post by Yoop »

Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 09:02
packman114 wrote:
28 May 2021 08:58
Make him hold a clipboard all year and run scout team. Still will get first round draft picks next year and less dead money to pay other guys.
The team can't make him do anything.

And you don't tell or ask the MVP to hold a clipboard.

You'd lose the team by doing that.

Additionally, the plan to "trade him next year" exposes him to injury and a significant of not total loss of trade value.
good point, If he sits out the season what does Rodgers do to pass his time? could take up another dangerous sport, sky diving, wind surfing, formula one racing, who knows, the point is a significant injury would wipe out all trade value

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Post by Ghost_Lombardi »

Yoho doesn't understand the difference between leverage and value. That's pretty funny.

AR's value is never going to be higher than it is right now, and Denver needs a playoff push or that house gets cleaned. They'll pay through the nose to keep their jobs.

You guys have a great weekend.

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Post by NCF »

YoHoChecko wrote:
28 May 2021 09:09
Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 08:44

You are confusing leverage with value.

No trade = no return value. GB gets nothing and AR never plays again.

Trade = enormous return value. Multiple firsts and young, franchise calibre players.

There's only one good choice here, and it is obvious.
GB gets nothing and he never plays again? Well that’s a helluva leap to make based upon nothing.

No trade NOW means trade later. But even no trade now plus retirement means his contract is eliminated with no dead money from our cap, which does have relative value to nothing.

Also I’M not the one confusing leverage and value. He has no leverage to get traded because either scenario equals a withholding of labor from US, which accounts for the leverage.

The value return is a different question, but the option of “if we don’t trade him now we never get to trade him” is a fantasy of your own making. It is the heat likely outcome. Even if he retires, we get to trade him when he changes his mind and wants to return.
I agree. I think Aaron has finally met his match if he thinks he can really out-stubborn the Packers FO.
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Post by Pckfn23 »

Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 09:33
Yoho doesn't understand the difference between leverage and value. That's pretty funny.

AR's value is never going to be higher than it is right now, and Denver needs a playoff push or that house gets cleaned. They'll pay through the nose to keep their jobs.

You guys have a great weekend.
While I also agree it will not be higher than right now, it may not be appreciably lower 9 months from now. You might want to consider the value of recouped salary cap dollars as well...
Last edited by Pckfn23 on 28 May 2021 10:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by YoHoChecko »

Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 09:33
Yoho doesn't understand the difference between leverage and value. That's pretty funny.

AR's value is never going to be higher than it is right now, and Denver needs a playoff push or that house gets cleaned. They'll pay through the nose to keep their jobs.
To be fair, I've already stated several times that I would accept a "pay through the nose" trade for Rodgers.

But that's the bar. You don't just "take the best offer available to you." If the trade doesn't include PLAYERS who will help your team THIS YEAR, then you wait. Next year with a better cap situation (for us thanks to Rodgers and for the league thanks to a $16 increase year over year), maybe we get fewer picks, but we can decide which pick we get in the first round. We also may be in a position where taking on a more veteran player with a non-rookie contract is feasible since Rodgers' number is gone.

Did you guys know that a player is fined a full regular season game check for each preseason game they skip?

That means that by the time the regular season arrives, Rodgers will have been fined 16% of his 2021 salary just in preseason games. That's not to mention the $50,000 a day fines throughout training camp, which will amount to another $1.5 million over the course of camp. If Rodgers is on the roster but not present for the whole training camp, he forfeits (already has) his $500,000 workout bonus, he pays $1.5 million in non-waivable training camp fines, $2.5 million in non-waivable preseason game check fines.

Look, Rodgers has plenty of money, but sitting out the whole offseason BEFORE any live games are played, will cost him $4.0 million in money he has to pay, not in money that he is foregoing. If he chooses to avoid those fines by retiring, he has to pay the Packers $23 million in returned signing bonus money that has not yet "been earned" by completing his contract. And THAT money comes off of our salary cap, unlike the fines.

This is the leverage he has. Obviously, money is not The Thing for this situation. But goodness there is a cost to taking a stand.

That's why I say you don't even entertain a trade until training camp comes. So many media people are like "well if he doesn't report to camp, you have to move him." No, that is when the team has their best leverage at getting him to return. "Hey, you haven't been traded; we still don't want to. Starting today, you begin hemorrhaging money. Welcome back?"

Don't try and tell me I don't understand leverage.

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Post by Drj820 »

YoHoChecko wrote:
28 May 2021 10:18
Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 09:33
Yoho doesn't understand the difference between leverage and value. That's pretty funny.

AR's value is never going to be higher than it is right now, and Denver needs a playoff push or that house gets cleaned. They'll pay through the nose to keep their jobs.
To be fair, I've already stated several times that I would accept a "pay through the nose" trade for Rodgers.

But that's the bar. You don't just "take the best offer available to you." If the trade doesn't include PLAYERS who will help your team THIS YEAR, then you wait. Next year with a better cap situation (for us thanks to Rodgers and for the league thanks to a $16 increase year over year), maybe we get fewer picks, but we can decide which pick we get in the first round. We also may be in a position where taking on a more veteran player with a non-rookie contract is feasible since Rodgers' number is gone.

Did you guys know that a player is fined a full regular season game check for each preseason game they skip?

That means that by the time the regular season arrives, Rodgers will have been fined 16% of his 2021 salary just in preseason games. That's not to mention the $50,000 a day fines throughout training camp, which will amount to another $1.5 million over the course of camp. If Rodgers is on the roster but not present for the whole training camp, he forfeits (already has) his $500,000 workout bonus, he pays $1.5 million in non-waivable training camp fines, $2.5 million in non-waivable preseason game check fines.

Look, Rodgers has plenty of money, but sitting out the whole offseason BEFORE any live games are played, will cost him $4.0 million in money he has to pay, not in money that he is foregoing. If he chooses to avoid those fines by retiring, he has to pay the Packers $23 million in returned signing bonus money that has not yet "been earned" by completing his contract. And THAT money comes off of our salary cap, unlike the fines.

This is the leverage he has. Obviously, money is not The Thing for this situation. But goodness there is a cost to taking a stand.

That's why I say you don't even entertain a trade until training camp comes. So many media people are like "well if he doesn't report to camp, you have to move him." No, that is when the team has their best leverage at getting him to return. "Hey, you haven't been traded; we still don't want to. Starting today, you begin hemorrhaging money. Welcome back?"

Don't try and tell me I don't understand leverage.
Not to be a #wellactually guy, but Rodgers is not going to miss a game check for missed preseason games.

My source:

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Post by salmar80 »

Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 09:33
Yoho doesn't understand the difference between leverage and value. That's pretty funny.

AR's value is never going to be higher than it is right now, and Denver needs a playoff push or that house gets cleaned. They'll pay through the nose to keep their jobs.

You guys have a great weekend.
It's very true AR's trade value will never get higher than now for several reasons:

1) He's not getting younger
2) Coming off MVP season and healthy
3) There are 3 years left on his contract = leverage and cap relief options in renegotiation/extension talks for the new team
4) The new team can get EXTREMELY low cap hits for selected years between 2021-2023 by extending that contract and by converting most of base salary into a signing bonus, and by doing other trickery. They could then REALLY load up on UFAs in 2022. Which is only possible because:
5) GB would be eating $38,356,000 in cap space (which is proration of money we've paid him already). That's like paying subsidies to the new team. They'd get AR without the cap hit baggage. I don't know what exactly that's worth in draft picks, but has to be something.
6) The sooner the new team gets AR into the building and into the playbook and program, the higher the chances of 2021 success. Even a vet can take time to get efficient in a new system. Transition from MM's O to LaFleur's O took him a year to get masterful at. Anyone trading for him mid-camp or mid-season would get a hampered AR

So if we do trade him, I expect it to happen pretty soon after June 1st. But I do hope we manage to mend the relationship and he plays for us now and in the future.
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Post by YoHoChecko »

Drj820 wrote:
28 May 2021 10:21
Not to be a #wellactually guy, but Rodgers is not going to miss a game check for missed preseason games.
Like I said, that's not a MISSED game check. It's a check he has to pay the team in the same amount as a game check.

And I KNOW he won't "miss" it. He has plenty of money.

But at some point, sitting at home with Shailene, sending million dollar checks to the organization you refuse to work for gets pretty annoying. And I said outright money isn't THE thing.

But $4.5 million by Labor Day? $23 million if he retires? The numbers get big, fast. And given the choice between playing a game you claim to love and want to play until you're 40 or sitting home paying the league to allow you not to play... it's going to have an impact.

And the CBA creating a world in which the teams are not allowed to waive these fines when the player comes back makes them iron-clad. There's no "I'll just sit home and then demand that my fines are waived as a precondition to my return." It's not an option.

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Post by YoHoChecko »

Drj820 wrote:
28 May 2021 10:21
Not to be a #wellactually guy, but Rodgers is not going to miss a game check for missed preseason games.

My source:
That's good information if it's right; like he says, it's being reported otherwise everywhere and I haven't found anything more or less reliable one way or the other. I used to know the whole CBA backwards and forwards but I also used to want a career knowing those things.

That said, what Ken lays out is WORSE. The $2.6 million on day 6? Fines increase to $130k a day for the second week? That's definitely worse.

The point remains. The Packers gain a lot of leverage when training camp comes. Even if it's not about the money for Rodgers. The money adds up quickly.

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Post by salmar80 »

Got to thinking: Imagine the possibility of trading your draft picks for another team's cap space. How high of a draft pick would you sell for 38M of cap space?

High 1st rounder? Low 1st? Would a 2nd round pick be worth over 35M?

Just wondering because that would be a thing in a Rodgers trade.
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Post by YoHoChecko »

salmar80 wrote:
28 May 2021 10:53
Got to thinking: Imagine the possibility of trading your draft picks for another team's cap space. How high of a draft pick would you sell for 38M of cap space?

High 1st rounder? Low 1st? Would a 2nd round pick be worth over 35M?

Just wondering because that would be a thing in a Rodgers trade.
As a reference point, the Browns and Texans I think made a trade involving a QB that amounted to a second round pick for $16 million in cap space a few years back. The analytics crowd felt that was a poor use of a second round pick because of the value of a second round pick being more than $16 million, not because the theory was bad.

Are you suggesting that we will or should accept less in compensation because we also are clearing $38 million in cap space over a 2-year period by moving him? That's an interesting thought but one I initially don't love.

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Post by YoHoChecko »

Ya know it's funny. Rodgers is, in many ways, totally right that the team probably planned to trade him and he wants to flex his muscles about it.

I think he's wrong about the timeline.

I'm in a wordy mood today, but let's review.

Rodgers signed a contract extension in 2018. He had 2 years remaining on his deal at the time (2019 and 2020). The deal was in total a 6-year deal (2018 - 2023). It offered him a record in new money over new years (34M/year), but was more accurately for cap purposes a 6-year deal averaging about $29 million per year.

Rodgers said at the time "This probably only guarantees 3 years." Late in 2019 or early in 2020, there was a restructure that pushed a few dollars back a little farther and probably got him a 4th year guaranteed, due to dead money. That 4th year would be 2021. But only probably. And if you look at the cap numbers on Rodgers' deal, you can see why he got in his head about the three-year mark.
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Look at that spike. GRANTED, that spike occurred because of the 2019/2020 restructure and didn't pre-exist it to this degree, BUT, it always looked like 2021 was a big inflection point of the contract. And the restructure was done before drafting Love. So at the time Love was drafted, this is what Rodgers' cap situation looked like.

So Rodgers feel that with the structure of his contract, the massive spike in 2021, the drafting of Jordan Love... Rodgers is convinced that this is all part of a plan to move on from him after 2020 and go with Love in 2021 to save from having to pay out the rest of the contract. And Rodgers now says "a wrench was put into that plan when I played the way I did."

It's all very rational.

HOWEVER.

I think it is MUCH more likely that the plan was always to move on either after 2021 or after 2022. I think that Rodgers underestimated the team's willingness to pay his big cap dollar years and underestimated the team's willingness to sit and develop Love for 2-4 years. But when I look at the cap situation, other players' contracts, and Love's development... Rodgers just mis-read the plan.

The plan was, of course, always contingent on Love proving himself. I know there are people who believe that if a GM drafts a QB in the first, he will NOT give up on that player. Tell that to Josh Rosen, but hey. But the hope was that Love developed nicely and that Rodgers won a Super Bowl in this stretch of years and that then, when Rodgers had 1-2 years left on his deal and Love had 1-2 years left on his deal, the team could make their selection and trade the other.

When I look at how BEAUTIFULLY that plan would/could have worked out, in terms of where the team is, where the roster is, when the cap crunch is coming, etc. (remember the covid year losses were not yet known or expected when all of this financial planning was being done, though were at least possible by the time Love was picked). Rodgers' contract becomes it's most moveable right when the other players' contracts make cap space valuable. Love's contract ends right after he could move into a starting role and get extended on an average QB deal based off of his 4th year salary, the projected 5th year option, and a franchise tag--creating a very good leverage situation for locking Love into a 6-year deal that he is likely to outplay, giving us prime post-development years at a relative bargain without ripping off the player and causing bad blood.

And so Rodgers thinks that his excellent play in 2020 threw a wrench in the plan to trade him THIS offseason. But actually, the only wrench thrown in is what Rodgers is doing right now. The plan to trade him next year or the year after IF Love looked like a success was PERFECT. It was so well-executed. It gave time and options for Love to display enough traits to get traded if Rodgers never falters. But it also lets the team move into the future if Love looks like he's the future. And if Gutey had only been better able manage his (and Murphy's) personal relationship with Rodgers, this team is in SUCH a good place.

But Rodgers wants more control over his life than NFL players typically get (and look, I felt that way in the Army, too. I left because I hated lacking control over my life decisions more than any other reason), and so he decided he's not going to let the team have that control. But he's wrong about what the plan was. And he's reacting to the wrong plan.

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Post by Waldo »

Ghost_Lombardi wrote:
28 May 2021 09:33
Yoho doesn't understand the difference between leverage and value. That's pretty funny.

AR's value is never going to be higher than it is right now, and Denver needs a playoff push or that house gets cleaned. They'll pay through the nose to keep their jobs.

You guys have a great weekend.
I disagree.

#12 will be much more valuable after the season when teams have time to plan to save/acquire the ammunition/cap space needed for a trade. Right now a tiny # of teams could even execute a trade with GB for #12, whether they want to or not. Its just too late in the offseason. Max value is at the opening bell of Free Agency, not in the summer.

I would just tell him straight up if I was Gute, he isn't getting traded until after this season no matter what he wants. If Aaron wants to be a jerk, its on him. He has a lot more to lose than the team. GB will still sell out games just fine if he leaves in a huff. Any post football media career for him depends on him not being labeled a big jerk by everyone. Any anyone random what they think of Favre and most remember the ironman streak, retirement drama, and the phallus pics he sent. 90's Favre that had a pedestal built around him is remembered by almost nobody but GB fans.

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