Plant Your Flag

[Acrobat]

depends on what level of success is wanted, as was noted, not many SB winners won with average QB play.

Oh we'd need better than average for sure, but we can still win a title without MVP caliber QB play. 3 of the last 6 Super Bowl champs have won without elite QB play.

they won because every other facet of there teams was top 5 in the league, and all 3 where well above average QB's, this idea that ya can win without great QB's is dubious at best, so many other things have to go near perfect for that stuff to work.

I mean, yeah, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are great QB's, but they weren't out of their minds awesome in 2015 and 2018. Not even close. My point is that if Jordan Love is good, even if not Elite, good coaching and player development and cap room can achieve the status of all other facets being top 5.

[YoHoChecko]

I mean, yeah, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are great QB's, but they weren't out of their minds awesome in 2015 and 2018. Not even close. My point is that if Jordan Love is good, even if not Elite, good coaching and player development and cap room can achieve the status of all other facets being top 5.

Also worth noting that Brady was on tilt (in a bad way) against us in the NFCCG and they still won. 3 INTs. He tried to let us back in the game and it was too little too late. Like I think it's fair to say that Rodgers didn't play his best game and there were plays to be made that weren't made on our end, but it's just abundantly true that brady played a mostly bad game--one of his worst last season after the bye when they came on strong. But that pre-halftime long 3rd down play which allowed a final heave TD were two big plays he made at a big moment that really broke our backs.

[NCF]

they won because every other facet of there teams was top 5 in the league, and all 3 where well above average QB's, this idea that ya can win without great QB's is dubious at best, so many other things have to go near perfect for that stuff to work.

As is having a top ten all-time QB "carrying" the team. Hasn't really worked out that well for us. I suppose you'll tell me that's because the rest of the team wasn't good enough. So, isn't the point between your contention and mine that we need a good team around the QB no matter what?

you insult me by thinking I wouldn't think that, the point is obviously that the Odds are better with that top 10 QB no matter what the situation is with the rest of the team.

Fair enough. I legitimately thought you were arguing the QB is the be-all-end-all. So, I guess the next bone becomes how much better the odds are with a better QB. Again, we had half the equation for a decade and it hasn't worked out well for us.

[NCF]

I mean, yeah, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are great QB's, but they weren't out of their minds awesome in 2015 and 2018. Not even close. My point is that if Jordan Love is good, even if not Elite, good coaching and player development and cap room can achieve the status of all other facets being top 5.

Also worth noting that Brady was on tilt (in a bad way) against us in the NFCCG and they still won. 3 INTs. He tried to let us back in the game and it was too little too late. Like I think it's fair to say that Rodgers didn't play his best game and there were plays to be made that weren't made on our end, but it's just abundantly true that brady played a mostly bad game--one of his worst last season after the bye when they came on strong. But that pre-halftime long 3rd down play which allowed a final heave TD were two big plays he made at a big moment that really broke our backs.

Back to the point [mention]Acrobat[/mention] made, you could also argue that a QB that isn't playing at an elite level AND doesn't have the supporting cast around him will be rewarded with some higher draft picks, etc. I think there are a few seasons we could point to that Aaron carried us to WC or Divisional losses and it would have been much better for us, long-term, to go 6-10 or something.

[Acrobat]

I mean, yeah, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are great QB's, but they weren't out of their minds awesome in 2015 and 2018. Not even close. My point is that if Jordan Love is good, even if not Elite, good coaching and player development and cap room can achieve the status of all other facets being top 5.

Also worth noting that Brady was on tilt (in a bad way) against us in the NFCCG and they still won. 3 INTs. He tried to let us back in the game and it was too little too late. Like I think it's fair to say that Rodgers didn't play his best game and there were plays to be made that weren't made on our end, but it's just abundantly true that brady played a mostly bad game--one of his worst last season after the bye when they came on strong. But that pre-halftime long 3rd down play which allowed a final heave TD were two big plays he made at a big moment that really broke our backs.

Back to the point @Acrobat made, you could also argue that a QB that isn't playing at an elite level AND doesn't have the supporting cast around him will be rewarded with some higher draft picks, etc. I think there are a few seasons we could point to that Aaron carried us to WC or Divisional losses and it would have been much better for us, long-term, to go 6-10 or something.

Haha reminds of how pissed I was in 2018 when we won that Jets game because I thought a top 6-8 pick was still in play. Looks like Gary is a baller though so it probably worked out but still.

[texas]

What about the titans

MLF not HC so therefore invalid

I have been wondering about this. Does LaFleur deserve any credit for laying the foundation for Arthur Smith's ascension to HC or the career resurrection of Ryan Tannehill? Arthur Smith's background is really interesting and there is no strong offensive influence in his background other than Mike Mularkey, Ken Whisenhunt, and Matt LaFleur. Given the struggles of those Titan offenses over the years, is it safe to say Matt LaFleur was a big influence? LaFleur needed two years in GB to really get the offense clicking. Did he just not have enough time in Tennessee to really put his stamp on it? I tend to think so.

I found one article that certainly suggests that.

New Falcons head coach Arthur Smith was with the Titans for the better part of a decade; however, his system is unique. Working under former Titans offensive coordinator and now Packers head coach Matt LaFleur has profoundly affected Smith’s own scheme.

https://www.sportstalkatl.com/falcons-b ... s-offense/

As a homer, I think we can safely conclude that any good things about Arthur Smith come from MLF and that any ostensibly negative things about MLF (such as his lack of dominance during his year in Tennessee) have reasonable explanations such as MLF needing 2 years to get an offense installed.

[texas]

Also worth noting that Brady was on tilt (in a bad way) against us in the NFCCG and they still won. 3 INTs. He tried to let us back in the game and it was too little too late. Like I think it's fair to say that Rodgers didn't play his best game and there were plays to be made that weren't made on our end, but it's just abundantly true that brady played a mostly bad game--one of his worst last season after the bye when they came on strong. But that pre-halftime long 3rd down play which allowed a final heave TD were two big plays he made at a big moment that really broke our backs.

Back to the point @Acrobat made, you could also argue that a QB that isn't playing at an elite level AND doesn't have the supporting cast around him will be rewarded with some higher draft picks, etc. I think there are a few seasons we could point to that Aaron carried us to WC or Divisional losses and it would have been much better for us, long-term, to go 6-10 or something.

Haha reminds of how pissed I was in 2018 when we won that Jets game because I thought a top 6-8 pick was still in play. Looks like Gary is a baller though so it probably worked out but still.

Everybody assumes Gary is about to explode on the scene this year, and based on his stats last season, it's probably more likely than not that he does. However, if he somehow doesn't, then we're all going to need to rethink things.

[salmar80]

Back to the point @Acrobat made, you could also argue that a QB that isn't playing at an elite level AND doesn't have the supporting cast around him will be rewarded with some higher draft picks, etc. I think there are a few seasons we could point to that Aaron carried us to WC or Divisional losses and it would have been much better for us, long-term, to go 6-10 or something.

Haha reminds of how pissed I was in 2018 when we won that Jets game because I thought a top 6-8 pick was still in play. Looks like Gary is a baller though so it probably worked out but still.

Everybody assumes Gary is about to explode on the scene this year, and based on his stats last season, it's probably more likely than not that he does. However, if he somehow doesn't, then we're all going to need to rethink things.

That goes for every player: Gotta be good every season.

Gary is so intriguing because of the athletic ceiling combined with willingness to improve. Kinda like Clark, both are rare specimens with high, high ceilings who improved upon their rookie years, demonstrating they are coachable.

It's always possible a player slacks off, starts believing "I've got this" or whatever, but I don't think Gary has that mindset.

IF Gary does hone his technique, and really takes off... Will be fun to watch.

[texas]

Haha reminds of how pissed I was in 2018 when we won that Jets game because I thought a top 6-8 pick was still in play. Looks like Gary is a baller though so it probably worked out but still.

Everybody assumes Gary is about to explode on the scene this year, and based on his stats last season, it's probably more likely than not that he does. However, if he somehow doesn't, then we're all going to need to rethink things.

That goes for every player: Gotta be good every season.

Gary is so intriguing because of the athletic ceiling combined with willingness to improve. Kinda like Clark, both are rare specimens with high, high ceilings who improved upon their rookie years, demonstrating they are coachable.

It's always possible a player slacks off, starts believing "I've got this" or whatever, but I don't think Gary has that mindset.

IF Gary does hone his technique, and really takes off... Will be fun to watch.

I just remember there was a stat last season, I think it was QB pressures per snap, and it was Gary and Aaron Donald at the top, and then a large gap, and then everyone else. If that holds for a starter's snap count, then he's a DPOY favorite.

[Yoop]

1. PITTSBURGH STEELERS
The Steelers are coming off one of the best pass-rushing seasons we’ve seen since 2006, generating pressure on a whopping 45.1% of their pass-rushing snaps over the regular season.

It was a well-rounded effort, with Defensive Player of the Year hopeful T.J. Watt leading the way with 73 total pressures (third in the NFL) and both Stephon Tuitt (71 pressures) and Cameron Heyward (62 pressures) not far behind that mark. Having three of the top 10 pressure producers on the same defense is a remarkable feat, particularly considering Pittsburgh lost starting edge defender Bud Dupree midway through the season.
this is so dominating, and to do so without Dupree.

we finished 15th

5. GREEN BAY PACKERS
The Packers’ pass rush didn’t have quite the same bite in 2020 as it did following the addition of several edge defenders in 2019, but they still finish the season as a slightly above average pass-rushing unit on this list.

Za’Darius Smith followed up a 2019 season in which he led the NFL in pressures with another strong showing this season, which included an 86.0 pass-rushing grade. On the other hand, Preston Smith saw a significant dip in his pass-rushing production. He was one of just five edge rushers in the league to post a pass-rush win rate below 10.0% on 300 or more pass-rushing snaps.

Gary was #9 in disruption rate at 15.1 % he barely had the 250 snap counts neccessary to be included in these ratings

A Donald was #6 with a disruption rate of 15.5 %

TJ watt led all disrupters with a 18.4 %

why Gary was 3rd fiddle having the best production of all our Rushers last year is another reason Pettine is now a defensive quality assistant for who???? the Chitown Bares, probably wouldn't take much for Gary to surpass Preston in coverage as well

https://www.nfl.com/news/next-gen-stats ... t-not-no-1

[lulu]

I believe he will but there will be many many insufferable Packers fans because he won't be Brett Favre/Aaron Rodgers. There is a generation of fans who know nothing but HOF caliber quarterback play. We have been blessed.

[RingoCStarrQB]

Ready for Love by Bad Company vs. Love Stinks by the J Geils band.
Weird.

[Drj820]

Alright if forced to choose right now...I think 20 years ago it took multiple years to develop a QB bc the college and the pro games were so different. Now, not so much.

Love is supposed to be “Lafleurs guy”, his project to show he can develop a qb with the tools he needs. So far, Lefleur looks terrified to have to start the guy. Everything he says about Love is a total word salad.

The young guns now pop early. Teams know they have something or spend 4 years trying to pretend they do.

Love played over 25 games in college, he has a red shirt year, and reporters are still getting excited when he hits a stationary net in practice.

Success to me is “do the packers give him a second contract that sets him up to be our long term QB option”

I think we will be looking for another option before we commit to love for another set of multiple years.

[NCF]

Everything he says about Love is a total word salad.

I think it's too much PR and not being allowed to say what he truly thinks. He's not just walking up to the podium and spouting off his personal thoughts. There are teams coaching his every word to every Jordan Love question. It's too bad because it absolutely does come across as you suggest.

[Drj820]

Everything he says about Love is a total word salad.

I think it's too much PR and not being allowed to say what he truly thinks. He's not just walking up to the podium and spouting off his personal thoughts. There are teams coaching his every word to every Jordan Love question. It's too bad because it absolutely does come across as you suggest.

I do get what you are saying, Lafleur just doesn’t seem like that great of a poker player to me. But I could be dead wrong of course ha

[YoHoChecko]

The young guns now pop early. Teams know they have something or spend 4 years trying to pretend they do.

This, to me, is absolute BS. It's why QBs have such a high bust rate. It's not that they "pop early or don't," it's that they "play early, whether they pop early or not, and if they're not ready, they're scarcely given another chance to develop properly ever again"

[Drj820]

The young guns now pop early. Teams know they have something or spend 4 years trying to pretend they do.

This, to me, is absolute BS. It's why QBs have such a high bust rate. It's not that they "pop early or don't," it's that they "play early, whether they pop early or not, and if they're not ready, they're scarcely given another chance to develop properly ever again"

So what are we to do with our first round (not 4th round) QB selection? He has been given a year in the system. Granted he didnt have a camp..but neither did rookies Herbert or Burrow and we saw who they were last year. Love was so not ready last year that he couldnt hold a clip board on game day over a guy we let walk for free.

Recently we have seen Watson, Herbert, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Josh Allen, Burrow and more make a more seamless transition from college to pro. Way more than we used to see when everything about the two games were different.

Now, I agree that players arent always immedietely ready..I just have a hard disagreement that the coaches, evaluators, and other players dont quickly know "oh ya we have something here", "oh ya just wait till the game slows down for this kid" or "ugh oh", "this kid cannot be put in a game, we cant put him on the gameday roster" or "this guy cant play"

So far, as opposed to other recent first round picks..Love doesnt seem to be giving anyone the feeling that all he needs is time...which is why when forced to "plant my flag", I think Lafleur would know by now. I dont think he would look so scared if he thought he had something he could work with. I think in a dream world you sit your first round QB for three years and then start him..I dont think that is the leagues realty. I also think it isnt as necessary anymore, the difference in the college game and the pro game is the windows and the speed now..the coaches have done everything else they can do to help the transitions be less drastic. The team should feel some excitement about Love by now, not this overwhelming excitement they get when he throws ten yards into a stationary net.

[Drj820]

The young guns now pop early. Teams know they have something or spend 4 years trying to pretend they do.

This, to me, is absolute BS. It's why QBs have such a high bust rate. It's not that they "pop early or don't," it's that they "play early, whether they pop early or not, and if they're not ready, they're scarcely given another chance to develop properly ever again"

Just one more seperate comment that I would like to add about this...teams that draft high in the first round and then throw their QBs out to wolves with no OL and no help around him...are probably terrible orgs that are setting their guy up to fail (ie Jets with Darnold.)

Teams that draft at the end of the first round have players around the QB to help him succeed (Lamar with the Ravens who i dont even think is a good QB). All Love has to do is not be terrible. He is in the perfect situation to come in and start in year two and do pretty well.

Teams have a high bust rate because they overdraft talented guys who cant process information quickly, and they set them up to fail with no help around the new rookie QB.

Love is already in his second year, and he has a great roster around him, as well as a great coach to guide him..Lefluer already knows whether he should feel scared about Love or not. Seems scared to me.

[go pak go]

I will say this.

Based on the limited, and I mean very limited, action we have seen Love do drills in compared to Blake Bortles and that other guy, Jordan Love is in a league of his own.

I remembered going to camp over the years and would watch Brett Hundley vs Rodgers throw or even camp arms compared to Hunldey or Matt Flynn. And you could tell immediately the difference in arm talent, footwork, etc.

Jordan Love right now compared to the other QBs is in a different zip code. Especially with Bortles who has had some minor success in his own right, I would say that is a good first sign. Now I just would like to see Jordan Love actually throw to an NFL caliber WR.

[Drj820]

I will say this.

Based on the limited, and I mean very limited, action we have seen Love do drills in compared to Blake Bortles and that other guy, Jordan Love is in a league of his own.

I remembered going to camp over the years and would watch Brett Hundley vs Rodgers throw or even camp arms compared to Hunldey or Matt Flynn. And you could tell immediately the difference in arm talent, footwork, etc.

Jordan Love right now compared to the other QBs is in a different zip code. Especially with Bortles who has had some minor success in his own right, I would say that is a good first sign. Now I just would like to see Jordan Love actually throw to an NFL caliber WR.

Good news, and good point.