Plant Your Flag

[Yoop]

Alright if forced to choose right now...I think 20 years ago it took multiple years to develop a QB bc the college and the pro games were so different. Now, not so much.

Love is supposed to be “Lafleurs guy”, his project to show he can develop a qb with the tools he needs. So far, Lefleur looks terrified to have to start the guy. Everything he says about Love is a total word salad.

The young guns now pop early. Teams know they have something or spend 4 years trying to pretend they do.

Love played over 25 games in college, he has a red shirt year, and reporters are still getting excited when he hits a stationary net in practice.

Success to me is “do the packers give him a second contract that sets him up to be our long term QB option”

I think we will be looking for another option before we commit to love for another set of multiple years.

no, years ago teams could afford to develop QB's, often teams carried as many as 4 on the team just so they could have time to bring one around slowly, the only reason they pop ( there not like POP corn, where only a few don't pop, with QB's, it's the opposite, most dont pop) is because there rushed into the speed of the pro game.

I don't know why everyone thinks Love fits the lafluer offense better then some other QB? it's not as though Lafluer has hinted to run option QB, we may become more run balanced, but that is so much harder to maintain then people seem to think.

[YoHoChecko]

Recently we have seen Watson, Herbert, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Josh Allen, Burrow and more make a more seamless transition from college to pro. Way more than we used to see when everything about the two games were different.

Ummm, what?

Josh Allen was 5-6 as a starter completed 52% of his passes, for 10 TDs and 12 INTs on a 6-10 team as a rookie.

Lamar Jackson was a running QB who threw only 6 TDs in 7 games and completed only 58% his rookie year.

Kyler Murray started all 16 games and only threw 20 TDs and won 5 games.

Watson was probably the best of this group until Herbert came along, but didn't play year one until the tail end of the season; 6 starts, but did manage to crack 60% completion (61%, in fact, which is a VERY low bar for a league in which the 25th best completion percentage is around 63%). His TD production in those games was crazy, though. Good for him.

We remember these guys as great successes because doing well as a rookie is SO hard. Like the BEST rookies in your memory were mostly below-average NFL starters in those years.


But it's so much more than playing well as a rookie. It's about developing the muscle memory of footwork and throwing mechanics before you start taking live shots. Listen to literally all the offensive coaches in their pressers, they literally say this. They literally talk about timing the footwork with the route combination and developing that connection until it is automatic so that your focus is on other things.

That takes repetition. And that repetition is exactly what Love missed out on as a rookie with nothing on-field. He got a leg up on the playbook and he certainly was able to unlearn a lot of bad mistakes, but I just don't think it makes any sense to say "a handful of guys made a quick adjustment so everyone who doesn't isn't any good."

Like just because a handful of pass rushers get 10 sacks as a rookie doesn't mean ZaDarius isn't a great player because it took him until his 5th year to do it. Just because Justin Jefferson exists doesn't mean Jordy was a bad player because it took him until his 4th year to break out.

You look at guys and their situations individually. I think teams are pretty good at evaluating when their rookie QBs are NFL game-ready from the jump. Most who start from Day One are well-evaluated actually. But it's the guys who clearly aren't ready who get thrown into games in blowouts or late in the season who stumble, stunt their development, and fail to grow as planned.

The Packers had a plan with Jordan Love. It included COVID and it included Rodgers. If they wanted to SPEED his development, they would have given him Tim Boyle's reps in camp, no matter who was more prepared. If they wanted to SPEED his development, they would have made him the #2 in practices all year. But they didn't want to SPEED it up., They just wanted to make sure they get it right. And so they didn't rush getting him the reps and repetition he needs to develop the muscle memory and automation of his mechanics. Will he get there by week one this year? He may still! It's not even certain that he WON'T be ready.

But when a guy is going through his mechanical and footwork development for the first time in OTAs, he's probably not going to look all that seasoned and ready. Because he isn't. And that's perfectly normal.

[go pak go]

Remind me never to work for some of these people on this forum.

Feel like the expectations is to hit the ground running no matter what I am doing after I just finished my mandatory sexual harassment and internal software orientation.

Like give the professionals some time!

[bud fox]

Remind me never to work for some of these people on this forum.

Feel like the expectations is to hit the ground running no matter what I am doing after I just finished my mandatory sexual harassment and internal software orientation.

Like give the professionals some time!

I agree.

I feel expectations would be that you will never be recognized for carrying the company on your back for years.

[go pak go]

Remind me never to work for some of these people on this forum.

Feel like the expectations is to hit the ground running no matter what I am doing after I just finished my mandatory sexual harassment and internal software orientation.

Like give the professionals some time!

I agree.

I feel expectations would be that you will never be recognized for carrying the company on your back for years.

Until I hear how much that a$$hole coworker makes.

But poor fella didn't get to have the secretary he wanted hired.

[bud fox]

Remind me never to work for some of these people on this forum.

Feel like the expectations is to hit the ground running no matter what I am doing after I just finished my mandatory sexual harassment and internal software orientation.

Like give the professionals some time!

I agree.

I feel expectations would be that you will never be recognized for carrying the company on your back for years.

Until I hear how much that a$$hole coworker makes.

But poor fella didn't get to have the secretary he wanted hired.

Best to give the guy controlling 95% of the revenue with what he wants - he probably knows a thing or two about how he got to the position.


I am getting off this example now as we will probably go down the rabbit hole of comparing it to farm animals or aliens soon.

[Yoop]

I will say this.

Based on the limited, and I mean very limited, action we have seen Love do drills in compared to Blake Bortles and that other guy, Jordan Love is in a league of his own.

I remembered going to camp over the years and would watch Brett Hundley vs Rodgers throw or even camp arms compared to Hunldey or Matt Flynn. And you could tell immediately the difference in arm talent, footwork, etc.

Jordan Love right now compared to the other QBs is in a different zip code. Especially with Bortles who has had some minor success in his own right, I would say that is a good first sign. Now I just would like to see Jordan Love actually throw to an NFL caliber WR.

really, you are one sharp football mind then, cause imo as to camp QB ing I have found it near impossible to tell the QB's apart, typically there all pretty accurate, have decent footwork, and there mechanics to a un trained eye look almost flawless, that you can say at this point Love is so much better and farther along then anyone else in camp, well hell why waste your life away as a CPA, when you could possibly intern as a QB coaching assistant, and in a couple years make a mil annual as a top level QB guru coach, in demand by many teams, go for it (kidding)

[Drj820]

Recently we have seen Watson, Herbert, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Josh Allen, Burrow and more make a more seamless transition from college to pro. Way more than we used to see when everything about the two games were different.

Ummm, what?

Josh Allen was 5-6 as a starter completed 52% of his passes, for 10 TDs and 12 INTs on a 6-10 team as a rookie.

Lamar Jackson was a running QB who threw only 6 TDs in 7 games and completed only 58% his rookie year.

Kyler Murray started all 16 games and only threw 20 TDs and won 5 games.

Watson was probably the best of this group until Herbert came along, but didn't play year one until the tail end of the season; 6 starts, but did manage to crack 60% completion (61%, in fact, which is a VERY low bar for a league in which the 25th best completion percentage is around 63%). His TD production in those games was crazy, though. Good for him.

We remember these guys as great successes because doing well as a rookie is SO hard. Like the BEST rookies in your memory were mostly below-average NFL starters in those years.


But it's so much more than playing well as a rookie. It's about developing the muscle memory of footwork and throwing mechanics before you start taking live shots. Listen to literally all the offensive coaches in their pressers, they literally say this. They literally talk about timing the footwork with the route combination and developing that connection until it is automatic so that your focus is on other things.

That takes repetition. And that repetition is exactly what Love missed out on as a rookie with nothing on-field. He got a leg up on the playbook and he certainly was able to unlearn a lot of bad mistakes, but I just don't think it makes any sense to say "a handful of guys made a quick adjustment so everyone who doesn't isn't any good."

Like just because a handful of pass rushers get 10 sacks as a rookie doesn't mean ZaDarius isn't a great player because it took him until his 5th year to do it. Just because Justin Jefferson exists doesn't mean Jordy was a bad player because it took him until his 4th year to break out.

You look at guys and their situations individually. I think teams are pretty good at evaluating when their rookie QBs are NFL game-ready from the jump. Most who start from Day One are well-evaluated actually. But it's the guys who clearly aren't ready who get thrown into games in blowouts or late in the season who stumble, stunt their development, and fail to grow as planned.

The Packers had a plan with Jordan Love. It included COVID and it included Rodgers. If they wanted to SPEED his development, they would have given him Tim Boyle's reps in camp, no matter who was more prepared. If they wanted to SPEED his development, they would have made him the #2 in practices all year. But they didn't want to SPEED it up., They just wanted to make sure they get it right. And so they didn't rush getting him the reps and repetition he needs to develop the muscle memory and automation of his mechanics. Will he get there by week one this year? He may still! It's not even certain that he WON'T be ready.

But when a guy is going through his mechanical and footwork development for the first time in OTAs, he's probably not going to look all that seasoned and ready. Because he isn't. And that's perfectly normal.

Okay, based on your response I am guessing that I must not be doing an effective job making my point (Il blame myself). I am not going to call Love a failure if the first year he starts the packers go 8-9 or something like that. However,

1) do you really think the guys you mentioned above had terrible rookie years? I think they were just rookies and on bad teams and the teams recogízed early on they were worth building their teams around. Lamar can still barely throw but they’ve built a car he can drive to the playoffs.
Allen had a bad record on a bad team, the team still saw plenty from him to know he was worth committing to.

2) all of the above teams besides the Ravens were not good teams. Love is going to a better situation with a better coach than all of them. What expectations are reasonable for him? I am fine with giving him all kinds of mistakes and losing games due to him that we would have won with Rodgers. But Love played multiple years as a starter in college, spent an entire year in the qb room with 12, spent an entire year practicing with the team...I don’t discredit that stuff. I think we will see this year whether he can play or not. It’s time to see. He was a first rounder, not a fifth.

3) the above guys may have had bad records with rough stats, they still all passed the eye test. All the coaches knew they had something they could work with, it’s not gonna take me 3 years to make a call on Love if whether we should give him the keys to the car, or be looking for another driver in the meantime. Allen, Watson, Mahommes, Murray, Lamar, Herbert, Burrow...all guys that their teams knew early they had their guy and all the guys learned a lot their rookie years..in game experience can be valuable and help a rookie. It doesn’t have to destroy the rookie, not every franchise is Adam Gase and the Jets.

4) I don’t think Love was number 3 and couldn’t hold a clip board on game day bc the packers wanted to ease the guy in that slowly. I think it was bc they wanted him away from Rodgers on the sideline, or Boyle was just so much better they couldn’t justify dressing love over Boyle.

5) When I say the pro game is easier to transition to now bc it’s more like the college game, kyler and lamar are perfect examples. QBs used to go to a team and the OC told them what to learn and they had to learn all new verbiage etc to fit the mode the OC sets. Now OCs run plays the QBs are familiar with, run what they are good at, the OC knows if the QB fails they are gone first. I think we see more and more young QBs play competent in the NFL due the college concepts making their way up to the NFL.

6) Love was a first rounder. He had a redshirt year. He should be able to throw to a stationary net and it not be breaking news that he hit the net. He can fail a lot next year and I won’t judge him by his stats, but the coaches, team, and most people that watch football will know if we have something we can work with or not. Lafleur is so qb friendly and the team is great around Love, if the team is 2-15 next year with Love at Qb I hope we look for another guy, not say “well just second year in league, original plan was to give him 4 before we decide”.

[Drj820]

The fundamental difference between my opinion on Love and what the team seems to be implying they think of him and others is that some devalue multiple seasons starting in college, being in the same QB room as Rodgers for a year, a year of practice with the team, and Lafleurs ability to prepare Love even when he had no gameday role. I think those things equal valuable time that Love should be making progress as well as time that the org and Lafleur can evaluate what they have. I think they know.

The other side seems to think because Love tan scout team, didn’t get a training camp Rookie year, never dressed for a game, and doesn’t have his WRs at OTAs that conclusion cant be made off what the team has seen and that lafleur and the org still just have no idea if he can play or not.

I think they have a VERY GOOD educated guess.

Hope I’m being fair to the two sides of this debate. Just wanted to point out what we seem to be rehashing a lot of.

[RingoCStarrQB]

I will say this.

Based on the limited, and I mean very limited, action we have seen Love do drills in compared to Blake Bortles and that other guy, Jordan Love is in a league of his own.

I remembered going to camp over the years and would watch Brett Hundley vs Rodgers throw or even camp arms compared to Hunldey or Matt Flynn. And you could tell immediately the difference in arm talent, footwork, etc.

Jordan Love right now compared to the other QBs is in a different zip code. Especially with Bortles who has had some minor success in his own right, I would say that is a good first sign. Now I just would like to see Jordan Love actually throw to an NFL caliber WR.

really, you are one sharp football mind then, cause imo as to camp QB ing I have found it near impossible to tell the QB's apart, typically there all pretty accurate, have decent footwork, and there mechanics to a un trained eye look almost flawless, that you can say at this point Love is so much better and farther along then anyone else in camp, well hell why waste your life away as a CPA, when you could possibly intern as a QB coaching assistant, and in a couple years make a mil annual as a top level QB guru coach, in demand by many teams, go for it (kidding)

What you don't want is a 5th round pick camp arm that makes the roster. The last one we had ended up throwing 12 INTs in 9 games while going 3-6 as a 2nd year starter ............ amassed a QB rating of 70. Averaged less than 170 yard passing per game. Ready for Love or Love Stinks........it doen't matter. Gutey should be praised for his move to bring in a new QB with a 1st round pick. Bold, intelligent GM move.

[Yoop]

I will say this.

Based on the limited, and I mean very limited, action we have seen Love do drills in compared to Blake Bortles and that other guy, Jordan Love is in a league of his own.

I remembered going to camp over the years and would watch Brett Hundley vs Rodgers throw or even camp arms compared to Hunldey or Matt Flynn. And you could tell immediately the difference in arm talent, footwork, etc.

Jordan Love right now compared to the other QBs is in a different zip code. Especially with Bortles who has had some minor success in his own right, I would say that is a good first sign. Now I just would like to see Jordan Love actually throw to an NFL caliber WR.

really, you are one sharp football mind then, cause imo as to camp QB ing I have found it near impossible to tell the QB's apart, typically there all pretty accurate, have decent footwork, and there mechanics to a un trained eye look almost flawless, that you can say at this point Love is so much better and farther along then anyone else in camp, well hell why waste your life away as a CPA, when you could possibly intern as a QB coaching assistant, and in a couple years make a mil annual as a top level QB guru coach, in demand by many teams, go for it (kidding)

What you don't want is a 5th round pick camp arm that makes the roster. The last one we had ended up throwing 12 INTs in 9 games while going 3-6 as a 2nd year starter ............ amassed a QB rating of 70. Averaged less than 170 yard passing per game. Ready for Love or Love Stinks........it doen't matter. Gutey should be praised for his move to bring in a new QB with a 1st round pick. Bold, intelligent GM move.

there are Love caliber QB's near the end of the first round every draft class, why chose one a year after extending your HOF QB for 4 more years, all it did was create the situation the team is now, possibly destroying any chance we have to win a SB with the most talented group of players the team has assembled in 15 years, I completely disagree, it was a idiotic attempt to send a message that he was in charge, Rodgers called him on it, and Guty will find out first hand that the letters NFL stand for not for long if this team tanks out.

[NCF]

there are Love caliber QB's near the end of the first round every draft class

So, if you believe this, it changes every argument there is about Love. I, personally, believe he was a Top-10 player in that draft and I said as much BEFORE The Draft. I believe the Packers assuredly believed he was a Top-10 player in that Draft and that is why they, not only selected him, but traded up to take him.

I mean if the Packers truly believed what you believe, then it absolutely was an egregious pick. I just don't think that is the case, though. I really think the FO thought this was there one shot to get someone of that caliber. To me Love >>> DeShone Kizer and Drew Lock and every other QB they have been interested in over the years. Then, look no further than this year when all the QB's go before pick 15 and the last to go is Mac Jones. Mac freaking Jones. So, sometimes, if you have conviction, you have to go for it and not think you can accomplish the same thing on a perfect schedule... and it definitely wasn't and still isn't on a perfect schedule.

[Yoop]

there are Love caliber QB's near the end of the first round every draft class

So, if you believe this, it changes every argument there is about Love. I, personally, believe he was a Top-10 player in that draft and I said as much BEFORE The Draft. I believe the Packers assuredly believed he was a Top-10 player in that Draft and that is why they, not only selected him, but traded up to take him.

I mean if the Packers truly believed what you believe, then it absolutely was an egregious pick. I just don't think that is the case, though. I really think the FO thought this was there one shot to get someone of that caliber. To me Love >>> DeShone Kizer and Drew Lock and every other QB they have been interested in over the years. Then, look no further than this year when all the QB's go before pick 15 and the last to go is Mac Jones. Mac freaking Jones. So, sometimes, if you have conviction, you have to go for it and not think you can accomplish the same thing on a perfect schedule... and it definitely wasn't and still isn't on a perfect schedule.

Yoho made a sold point, far more QB's taken round one would succeed if given a 2 or 3 year time frame as a under study to a great QB, actually I'd say almost any starting QB, it would build confidence and allow them time to adapt to a much faster level of play then they ever experienced in college ball, with that said you don't need to pick a top 10 QB, teams do it obviously because those players need less tutoring and are more adaptive to play pro ball.

I don't know what you saw in Love prior to our choosing him, but consider this, even highly drafted guys that sit a year bust out at about a 30% rate, great coaches have thought they could eventually turn them into good players, and failed.

I know you and others wont agree, but I think the pick of Love was done to send a message, I don't believe Guty, I think the talk that we where interested in a couple receivers that went off the boards earlier was just that, TALK, sure I imagine it was discussed between scouts and coaches, but Guty took Love, because like you he checked out all the QB's, but I ask you, why where we so involved with scouting out QB's anyway, we had a decent backup with Boyle, no Guty wanted his own QB, so he took one that anyone that wanted a QB had passed over.

I never read a article from anyone other then our FO or Packer beat writers, may cheese head TV that said we had to move up because some other team would snatch Love away, heck I did read some articles that said we could have traded back and still got him.

whatever, it's water over the bridge now, and we have to live with Guty's decision, but certainly something I think could have been put off another year or two.

[APB]

whatever, it's water over the bridge now, and we have to live with Guty's decision, but certainly something I think could have been put off another year or two.

I'm gonna apologize up front because I'm about to be brutally honest with you.

I desperately wish you would embrace your quoted statement above. Instead, you bludgeon the forum with the same opinions in post after post after post, thread after thread after thread. Heck, just take a look at the last two posts from you in this very conversation and ask yourself how many times you've said it before?

If your post includes statements of "like I said", "you've heard me say", "I'll say it again", etc...that should serve as a red flag. For the love of god, please heed your own advice.

[NCF]

I think everyone seems a little on edge lately. I think we all could use a good step back and start having fun with conversations again.

[YoHoChecko]

Okay, based on your response I am guessing that I must not be doing an effective job making my point (Il blame myself). I am not going to call Love a failure if the first year he starts the packers go 8-9 or something like that. However,

1) do you really think the guys you mentioned above had terrible rookie years? I think they were just rookies and on bad teams and the teams recogízed early on they were worth building their teams around. Lamar can still barely throw but they’ve built a car he can drive to the playoffs.
Allen had a bad record on a bad team, the team still saw plenty from him to know he was worth committing to.

I do not think they had terrible rookie years. I think they had overwhelmingly good rookie years and that is still quite poor quarterbacking by NFL starter standards. I specifically disagree that Josh Allen showed enough in year one to know they had something. I think at the end of year one that could have gone either way. And yes, the Ravens completely retooled their offense to Lamar's game in a way that I've been dying for teams to do with mobile QBs in the past, but still isn't clear if it's sustainable (the offense tanked last year)

2) all of the above teams besides the Ravens were not good teams. Love is going to a better situation with a better coach than all of them. What expectations are reasonable for him? I am fine with giving him all kinds of mistakes and losing games due to him that we would have won with Rodgers. But Love played multiple years as a starter in college, spent an entire year in the qb room with 12, spent an entire year practicing with the team...I don’t discredit that stuff. I think we will see this year whether he can play or not. It’s time to see. He was a first rounder, not a fifth.

I also do not discredit the year Love spent with the team in many regards and the undisputed "he looks so much better than last year" narrative proves there is much that he gained. What I AM saying, though, is the lack of regular reps that it takes to build muscle memory on the fundamentals lessened the potential impact for his rookie year. The comment above made that we could call it 0.75 years in the league seems right to me. He learned a lot. He improved a lot. But the on-field fundamental work was less in Love's rookie year than it often is for a rookie, both because of COVID and because of his role.

3) the above guys may have had bad records with rough stats, they still all passed the eye test. All the coaches knew they had something they could work with, it’s not gonna take me 3 years to make a call on Love if whether we should give him the keys to the car, or be looking for another driver in the meantime. Allen, Watson, Mahommes, Murray, Lamar, Herbert, Burrow...all guys that their teams knew early they had their guy and all the guys learned a lot their rookie years..in game experience can be valuable and help a rookie. It doesn’t have to destroy the rookie, not every franchise is Adam Gase and the Jets.

Yes, there were a lot of guys who passed the eye test and it was clear early on that something really great was coming. There are also a lot of guys who early on did NOT pass the eye test and later it became really clear that the team had something. I consider Rodgers to be one of those guys, fwiw. Rodgers needed two years on the bench, by my eye test. Ryan Tannehill is another good example. You mention above that he is a first rounder, not a fifth, and that is valid but there is also a very big difference between a top-10 pick at QB and a pick at 26. Waldo harps on this all the time, but if you are a franchise QB who the NFL considers ready to play in year one, you're going top 10 without a doubt. If you're a franchise QB who needs a year, you're probably still going top ten but you might slip down into the teens. If you're a QB with elite talent and is a project to develop into a franchise QB (Lamar Jackson at the time of the draft, Jordan Love, Jason Campbell) you're in the 20s. And draft status can be wrong about readiness, but it's a good indicator. It's important, though, to take these cases individually. We drafted a guy whose mechanics were a mess from coaching changes and poor team play around him after the expectations on him were already high.

4) I don’t think Love was number 3 and couldn’t hold a clip board on game day bc the packers wanted to ease the guy in that slowly. I think it was bc they wanted him away from Rodgers on the sideline, or Boyle was just so much better they couldn’t justify dressing love over Boyle.

No, you're right. I worded or explained this quite poorly. What I mean is that in 2005 Craig Nall was better in camp than Rodgers, because knowing the offense and the speed on the NFL are the two biggest advantages you can have on a rookie, but the team decided that with Favre's uncertain retirement schedule, it was important to have Rodgers be ready more quickly; and it was less important to hang onto the stop-gap backup QB until Rodgers was ready. So even though by almost every eye test and by some reporting that has gone on, Craig Nall played better than Rodgers, the TEAM said to the coach, "no sorry, we need you to make Rodgers the backup and focus on getting him ready"

When Tim Boyle played better than Jordan Love in year one, because knowing the offense and the speed on the NFL are the two biggest advantages you can have on a rookie, the team was like "look, we have Rodgers for at least 2 more years. It's more important to have the best possible backup this year than it is to make sure than Jordan Love is ready asap." That was a team looking to win a Super Bowl, so it was not time to experiment with a rookie backup. It was time to put the better player right now in the better position to play.

5) When I say the pro game is easier to transition to now bc it’s more like the college game, kyler and lamar are perfect examples. QBs used to go to a team and the OC told them what to learn and they had to learn all new verbiage etc to fit the mode the OC sets. Now OCs run plays the QBs are familiar with, run what they are good at, the OC knows if the QB fails they are gone first. I think we see more and more young QBs play competent in the NFL due the college concepts making their way up to the NFL.

I mean yes, the Ravens completely went college offense and the Cardinals hired a college coach, but MLF is not teaching Jordan Love his college offense, but better. He's teaching an offense which does make life easier on QBs, generally, but only once they have the fundamentals down. There is a reason Aaron Rodgers improved DRASTICALLY from 2019 to 2020. Because it takes time to adjust your mechanics and fundamentals to a new scheme, and it takes time to fully understand the wrinkles of an offense, even for a high football IQ MVP.

6) Love was a first rounder. He had a redshirt year. He should be able to throw to a stationary net and it not be breaking news that he hit the net. He can fail a lot next year and I won’t judge him by his stats, but the coaches, team, and most people that watch football will know if we have something we can work with or not. Lafleur is so qb friendly and the team is great around Love, if the team is 2-15 next year with Love at Qb I hope we look for another guy, not say “well just second year in league, original plan was to give him 4 before we decide”.

You seem to be focusing a lot on the stationary net stuff. Which is weird because a) Jordan Love is 24 for 37 in team drills according to Rob Demovsky, and b) we're literally watching OTAs for signs of progress and he IS throwing into a stationary net on a lot of these drills. What are we supposed to report? Nothing? You seem to want to "see" something from him, but when he does throw it into a net, no one is like "wow, a net throw!" We're just like "well, ok, at least he can do that one thing they're currently asking him to do." But he's also completing 64.8% of his passes (albeit not fullspeed) against our NFL defense with absolute scrub WRs out there. So, like, focus less on the net.

But in terms of KNOWING I think all the things you say about teams knowing what they have comes from seeing them in limited live action to confirm what's happening on the field. Like even when Mahomes was making "wow" throws on the regs, there are multiple multiple beat reporters at his second-year training camp fixating on his interceptions. And Mahomes played in his rookie preseason, his rookie season finale, and his second-year preseason. That's when people started saying "oh, OK." Jordan Love hasn't played a single snap against a live NFL pass rush, ever. How on earth do you think anyone can know what a player is when that statement is true?

And more broadly, as a response to your post in total, none of the things that put Love in a good situation in Green Bay (which I agree, are many things), do anything to hasten the process or the number of reps it takes to build new muscle memory. That is still an ongoing process that is to be expected. We took a project and we treated him like a project. Maybe in retrospect, keeping Boyle over Love was a mistake because we needed to get Love better practice reps and better gameday preparation than we did. But we didn't know that Rodgers would stay healthy all season and that he would then take his ball and go home the next offseason.

Jordan Love needs muscle memory. Once his feet are good, we'll evaluate the rest. And from what I can tell, he's still thinking about his feet; so he's not ready. I mean, that's really an unsatisfying, unexciting, unsexy way to look at it. But that's really all there is to it. Dating back to the MM QB school, all I know about good QBing is that it starts with footwork. As long as that's not automatic and locked up, you're going to be holding yourself back.

[RingoCStarrQB]

In Marino's rookie season he started 9 games. Went 7-2. Threw 20 TD passes and only 6 INTs.

[RingoCStarrQB]

Favre needed so much coaching compared to Marino. Love is still a mystery.

[Yoop]

whatever, it's water over the bridge now, and we have to live with Guty's decision, but certainly something I think could have been put off another year or two.

I'm gonna apologize up front because I'm about to be brutally honest with you.

I desperately wish you would embrace your quoted statement above. Instead, you bludgeon the forum with the same opinions in post after post after post, thread after thread after thread. Heck, just take a look at the last two posts from you in this very conversation and ask yourself how many times you've said it before?

If your post includes statements of "like I said", "you've heard me say", "I'll say it again", etc...that should serve as a red flag. For the love of god, please heed your own advice.

hey, if you don't like the conversation, go start one of your own, when people comment I respond, and obviously opinions get hashed over, you do more to stop conversations then any other member of this forum with your constant gastopo BS
hell if it wasn't for belittling me you'd never be heard of, you bring nothing to this place, It's mind boggling that your even a mod here, soooo please, you know what you can do with your advice.

[Labrev]

So, if you believe this, it changes every argument there is about Love. I, personally, believe he was a Top-10 player in that draft and I said as much BEFORE The Draft. I believe the Packers assuredly believed he was a Top-10 player in that Draft and that is why they, not only selected him, but traded up to take him.

I mean if the Packers truly believed what you believe, then it absolutely was an egregious pick. I just don't think that is the case, though. I really think the FO thought this was there one shot to get someone of that caliber. To me Love >>> DeShone Kizer and Drew Lock and every other QB they have been interested in over the years. Then, look no further than this year when all the QB's go before pick 15 and the last to go is Mac Jones. Mac freaking Jones.

I will say this... one of my main complaints with the Love pick -- that it was too early for a high pick at QB -- has not really survived the test of time. If this past offseason is the beginning of the "appropriate" time to look for a possible successor at QB, it really did not offer us a chance at a comparable talent at QB. The top QBs were gone very early; we would have needed to give up more than a 4th to get one, and half those guys were comparable or inferior talents.

Also, this whole Rodgers drama, which at some level is likely fueled by the existence of a successor in the first place, but there's also some reason to believe it may have happened anyway (maybe to a lesser degree, but still) in which case, it's nice to have that talent behind him.