Whose Side Are You On?

[NCF]

LaFleur is the major reasoning behind the team success from 2018 to 2019. TEAM SUCCESS. An average QB wasn't. It was still football, while the system was new the fundamentals of football were not. There were fundamental good QB play that Rodgers was struggling with in 2019 that can not be explained by a new scheme or talent.

2019 was such a transition year. I do think a lot of Rodgers "struggles" were self-inflicted. MM was out, LaFleur was in, but Rodgers made sure there was some carryover of things he liked from the old scheme. A lot has been made about LaFleur earning Rodgers trust and Rodgers fully buying into the scheme in Year 2. So as much as Rodgers may have wanted MM gone, he wasn't the only one hanging on a little too tightly to things that didn't work anymore.

[Drj820]

Yes, he decided to put more work in. He decided to take it more seriously and improve his game. Players do not actively decide to play poorly, but they do actively decide to put more work in and take it more seriously so that they can improve. Tony Gonzalez is a great example of how he was almost bounced from the league before taking it more seriously and becoming a Hall of Famer.

Rodgers' teammates didn't struggle with the transition to the new system as much as he did. Aaron Jones had his best year. Allen Lazard had his best year. Jamaal Williams had his best year. The transition alone does not explain the continued average to below average play in 2019 and then such a HUGE improvement in 2020.

His competent QB play wasn't good, even for year 1 in a new system. It was below average QB play outside of a new system. There were a decent number of QBs in 2019 that could have provided the same competent play. The talent around him was very similar to the talent in 2020. Talent around him was not enough of an explanation for the "competent" play in 2019. The transition was also not enough of an explanation. Adding those 2 things and Rodgers taking it seriously again to improve himself is. He did regress for 2 straight seasons then bounced back in 2020.

2019 he was 13th in passer rating, 25th in completion%, 15th in TD%, 18th in sack%, 20th in yards per attempt, 1st in INT%. This is not what good QB play looks like.

I sure would hope Lazard made an improvement from 2018 where he appeared in one game and had one catch. He still went for less than 500 yards though in 2019. I would hope Jones had a better 2019 when he actually got the ball and wasnt hampered by a coach that seemed to hate him. And surely you recognize the transition in a new system would be easier for a RB than for a QB right?

Like I said, the Packers went 13-3 and made it to the NFCCG in 2019 with a defense that couldnt stop the run, terrible special teams, no TE, and a WR1 that missed a quarter of the season. I think thats because Rodgers impacts wins more than what the stat sheet would scream. I think Lafluer knows that too. I think Rodgers was putting in effort to make it work in 2019, he just was learning something brand new that he had never done before. If you think the Packers would go 13-3 with other "below average" quarterbacks or "not good" QB play, then you shouldnt be too worried about whether Rodgers comes back or not.

The 2019 team is not 13-3 with a below average QB. Rodgers earned his check.

LaFleur is the major reasoning behind the team success from 2018 to 2019. TEAM SUCCESS. An average QB wasn't. It was still football, while the system was new the fundamentals of football were not. There were fundamental good QB play that Rodgers was struggling with in 2019 that can not be explained by a new scheme or talent. Rodgers' play had regress 2 years in a row. His play was average/competent as I said all along, there were a good number of QBs in the league in 2019 that could have provided the same competent/average QB play. I am worried about Rodgers coming back because he improved his play in 2020 and was awesome.

Alright. I would say this convo is at a stalemate. You think any average QB gets the 2019 Packers to 13-3 and the NFCCG, I strongly disagree and think Rodgers impacts winning in far more ways than the stat sheet will tell you. All good, difference of opinion.

[Pckfn23]

the reason others improved is due to the only direction for them to go was UP, Rodgers struggles was there reward

This doesn't make sense.

lis, here I go being redundent again, but you just wont accept the reality that old dogs don't learn new tricks fast,

Then don't be "redundent," especially when arguing something that no one is arguing against...

you take a player like MVS, of course he's bound to improve it being his 3rd year in the NFL in a scheme that makes it easier to do well, thats not the same this for the player that runs the scheme.

Why isn't it? Why would other players be able to excel in the scheme, but the QB can't until year 2? I have never contended that the transition had no reason behind the continued struggles. I contend that it is a reason, but not the biggest reason.

you know this stuff, yet refuse to acknowlege it's truths, it was the same story with Hayward and Hyde, they fit a scheme better, but also busted there butt to make sure they would, same think with Rodgers in the 019 off season

Actually I do acknowledge that a better scheme is a big reason behind the improvement of Rodgers and Hayward and Hyde. I also believe all 3 improved because they chose to put in more work to improve. What I am arguing against is that the transition for Rodgers, along with talent, was the main reason because his average QB play.

[Pckfn23]

LaFleur is the major reasoning behind the team success from 2018 to 2019. TEAM SUCCESS. An average QB wasn't. It was still football, while the system was new the fundamentals of football were not. There were fundamental good QB play that Rodgers was struggling with in 2019 that can not be explained by a new scheme or talent.

2019 was such a transition year. I do think a lot of Rodgers "struggles" were self-inflicted. MM was out, LaFleur was in, but Rodgers made sure there was some carryover of things he liked from the old scheme. A lot has been made about LaFleur earning Rodgers trust and Rodgers fully buying into the scheme in Year 2. So as much as Rodgers may have wanted MM gone, he wasn't the only one hanging on a little too tightly to things that didn't work anymore.

Then the transition shouldn't have been that impactful for Rodgers and a major reason behind his average play. That he was still holding on to McCarthy's tendencies and schemes very well could be reasoning behind it. That points to what I have been saying. It is Rodgers himself, more so than anything, that was responsible for his average play in 2019 and vast improvement in 2020. He was still regressing for a 2nd year in a row in 2019. Thus leading to the drafting of Love, prematurely.

[Drj820]

I blame MMs crappy schemes that didnt fit the ingredients in the cupboard, lack of roster talent, Rodgers not practicing the entire season due to a bum knee, Rodgers playing games on one leg, and Rodgers frustrations with MM for the appeared decline in 2018.

4 of those 5 reasons would hurt any QB in the league.

[Yoop]

LaFleur is the major reasoning behind the team success from 2018 to 2019. TEAM SUCCESS. An average QB wasn't. It was still football, while the system was new the fundamentals of football were not. There were fundamental good QB play that Rodgers was struggling with in 2019 that can not be explained by a new scheme or talent.

2019 was such a transition year. I do think a lot of Rodgers "struggles" were self-inflicted. MM was out, LaFleur was in, but Rodgers made sure there was some carryover of things he liked from the old scheme. A lot has been made about LaFleur earning Rodgers trust and Rodgers fully buying into the scheme in Year 2. So as much as Rodgers may have wanted MM gone, he wasn't the only one hanging on a little too tightly to things that didn't work anymore.

well wouldn't u consider that a natural tendency of us human beings? I do, people take time to wash out tendency's that had prior success, and if the changes are so complex as is the case with running any pro offense that transition is going to have a learning curve, and far bigger for the player running it who has to memorize all the variables that make it work.

[NCF]

LaFleur is the major reasoning behind the team success from 2018 to 2019. TEAM SUCCESS. An average QB wasn't. It was still football, while the system was new the fundamentals of football were not. There were fundamental good QB play that Rodgers was struggling with in 2019 that can not be explained by a new scheme or talent.

2019 was such a transition year. I do think a lot of Rodgers "struggles" were self-inflicted. MM was out, LaFleur was in, but Rodgers made sure there was some carryover of things he liked from the old scheme. A lot has been made about LaFleur earning Rodgers trust and Rodgers fully buying into the scheme in Year 2. So as much as Rodgers may have wanted MM gone, he wasn't the only one hanging on a little too tightly to things that didn't work anymore.

well wouldn't u consider that a natural tendency of us human beings? I do, people take time to wash out tendency's that had prior success, and if the changes are so complex as is the case with running any pro offense that transition is going to have a learning curve, and far bigger for the player running it who has to memorize all the variables that make it work.

I absolutely would consider this natural. But, it also does go against your theory that Rodgers wanted LaFleur's schemes all along. I don't think Rodgers exactly knew what he wanted until he saw it in action. That is absolutely natural. I am not blaming Rodgers for that, but also, I am. There is a degree of culpability there.

[Drj820]

2019 was such a transition year. I do think a lot of Rodgers "struggles" were self-inflicted. MM was out, LaFleur was in, but Rodgers made sure there was some carryover of things he liked from the old scheme. A lot has been made about LaFleur earning Rodgers trust and Rodgers fully buying into the scheme in Year 2. So as much as Rodgers may have wanted MM gone, he wasn't the only one hanging on a little too tightly to things that didn't work anymore.

well wouldn't u consider that a natural tendency of us human beings? I do, people take time to wash out tendency's that had prior success, and if the changes are so complex as is the case with running any pro offense that transition is going to have a learning curve, and far bigger for the player running it who has to memorize all the variables that make it work.

I absolutely would consider this natural. But, it also does go against your theory that Rodgers wanted LaFleur's schemes all along. I don't think Rodgers exactly knew what he wanted until he saw it in action. That is absolutely natural. I am not blaming Rodgers for that, but also, I am. There is a degree of culpability there.

I agree with you NCF. I would just say that all of that is part of the "transition" and is why the transition into new schemes are harder for QBs than say RBs. I would also say if Rodgers had a hard time in the transition, it is "natural" and he was better at it than most would have been in year one. Basically, i think you have a great point..i just dont think other QBs would have done better.

[go pak go]

well wouldn't u consider that a natural tendency of us human beings? I do, people take time to wash out tendency's that had prior success, and if the changes are so complex as is the case with running any pro offense that transition is going to have a learning curve, and far bigger for the player running it who has to memorize all the variables that make it work.

I absolutely would consider this natural. But, it also does go against your theory that Rodgers wanted LaFleur's schemes all along. I don't think Rodgers exactly knew what he wanted until he saw it in action. That is absolutely natural. I am not blaming Rodgers for that, but also, I am. There is a degree of culpability there.

I agree with you NCF. I would just say that all of that is part of the "transition" and is why the transition into new schemes are harder for QBs than say RBs. I would also say if Rodgers had a hard time in the transition, it is "natural" and he was better at it than most would have been in year one. Basically, i think you have a great point..i just dont think other QBs would have done better.

I agree with this.

[YoHoChecko]

I agree with you NCF. I would just say that all of that is part of the "transition" and is why the transition into new schemes are harder for QBs than say RBs. I would also say if Rodgers had a hard time in the transition, it is "natural" and he was better at it than most would have been in year one. Basically, i think you have a great point..i just dont think other QBs would have done better.

Yeah, I have no issues with Rodgers' 2019 year. First year in a new system, and the team was winning so little reason to push. Transitioning is tough. I do think that lots of QBs could have had similar years there if they had some previous scheme experience. But I do think it's fair to say both that we did not go 13-3 primarily on the strength of our QB AND that our offense and run game likely benefitted from even the presence of a QB with Rodgers' skillset and history for teams to gameplan against.

There's some of both things there. But regardless of whether or not it was a sign of a prolonged decline in ability (or whether it's fair to perceive it that way), there's no denying that he didn't have the outcomes he was used to. Nor is there any denying that he was in his late thirties and a draft pick at QB can just as easily be a 4-year plan as a 2-year plan.

I just think the "we're on a fixed timeline" side of that draft pick is all too much. And I also think that the reasons behind Rodgers' dip in stellar play are fully erroneous given that EITHER Rodgers was good all along but needed a supporting cast and scheme improvement, which means that Gutey and Murphy are responsible for providing him what he needed and thus the Love pick was just one wrong turn... OR Rodgers was seen to be genuinely declining in his focus or preparation, in which the Love pick makes sense. Like, either way, I side against Rodgers here.

[Pckfn23]

There's some of both things there. But regardless of whether or not it was a sign of a prolonged decline in ability (or whether it's fair to perceive it that way), there's no denying that he didn't have the outcomes he was used to. Nor is there any denying that he was in his late thirties and a draft pick at QB can just as easily be a 4-year plan as a 2-year plan.

I think that is being denied though...

I also think that the reasons behind Rodgers' dip in stellar play are fully erroneous given that EITHER Rodgers was good all along but needed a supporting cast and scheme improvement, which means that Gutey and Murphy are responsible for providing him what he needed and thus the Love pick was just one wrong turn... OR Rodgers was seen to be genuinely declining in his focus or preparation, in which the Love pick makes sense. Like, either way, I side against Rodgers here.

As well as this.

[YoHoChecko]

There's some of both things there. But regardless of whether or not it was a sign of a prolonged decline in ability (or whether it's fair to perceive it that way), there's no denying that he didn't have the outcomes he was used to. Nor is there any denying that he was in his late thirties and a draft pick at QB can just as easily be a 4-year plan as a 2-year plan.

I think that is being denied though...

Yes. That's true. That IS being denied; some here, and alll over the national media.

[Pckfn23]

There's some of both things there. But regardless of whether or not it was a sign of a prolonged decline in ability (or whether it's fair to perceive it that way), there's no denying that he didn't have the outcomes he was used to. Nor is there any denying that he was in his late thirties and a draft pick at QB can just as easily be a 4-year plan as a 2-year plan.

I think that is being denied though...

Yes. That's true. That IS being denied; some here, and alll over the national media.

There just was some valid reasons to take Jordan Love in the 2020 draft.

Personally I didn't like that we traded up and I didn't like doing it after just offering Aaron Rodgers an extension through 2023, essentially making Love a 5 year play at the longest.

[YoHoChecko]

There just was some valid reasons to take Jordan Love in the 2020 draft.

Personally I didn't like that we traded up and I didn't like doing it after just offering Aaron Rodgers an extension through 2023, essentially making Love a 5 year play at the longest.

I thought it was a year too early and hated the trade. I was in a very bad mood for much of that night.

But, like, that's fine. I was in a bad mood when we picked a bunch of guys in first rounds over the years. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

[Drj820]

There just was some valid reasons to take Jordan Love in the 2020 draft.

Personally I didn't like that we traded up and I didn't like doing it after just offering Aaron Rodgers an extension through 2023, essentially making Love a 5 year play at the longest.

I thought it was a year too early and hated the trade. I was in a very bad mood for much of that night.

But, like, that's fine. I was in a bad mood when we picked a bunch of guys in first rounds over the years. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

I mean its all good, all of it..if Love can play. Quite a big TBD we have on our hands. Devastating consequences to the decision if he cant, not a big deal we pushed 12 out the door if he can play.

Remember Gutey said he would take a QB if there was one available that he "loved" not just liked...so Gutey staked his career on this pick. Hope he works out.

[go pak go]

There just was some valid reasons to take Jordan Love in the 2020 draft.

Personally I didn't like that we traded up and I didn't like doing it after just offering Aaron Rodgers an extension through 2023, essentially making Love a 5 year play at the longest.

I thought it was a year too early and hated the trade. I was in a very bad mood for much of that night.

But, like, that's fine. I was in a bad mood when we picked a bunch of guys in first rounds over the years. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

The night of the 2020 draft was the angriest I have ever been during an NFL draft

[YoHoChecko]

I mean its all good, all of it..if Love can play. Quite a big TBD we have on our hands. Devastating consequences to the decision if he cant, not a big deal we pushed 12 out the door if he can play.

Remember Gutey said he would take a QB if there was one available that he "loved" not just liked...so Gutey staked his career on this pick. Hope he works out.

I agree. But that's also what some of us are trying to say. It's EVEN ok if Love can't play so long as they keep Rodgers because of it. Then it's just a bust.

[YoHoChecko]

The night of the 2020 draft was the angriest I have ever been during an NFL draft

The weekend was so weird for me.

Didn't like the Love pick; hated the trade; was optimistic about the player.

LOVED AJ Dillon. Thought he was a round or so early

LOVED Josiah Deguara. Thought he was 2 or 3 rounds early

LOVED Jon Runyan Jr. Taken at a good value

HATED getting no receiver help in the top 3 rounds. Understood taking no receivers on day 3.

It was a weird weekend. But it happened and we moved on and I'm excited about who he could be and what it could mean, but I'm angry again now that Rodgers' reaction to it has blown up the options.

[Madcity_matt]

I voted FO, and by that I mean voting for the Green Bay Packers. I didn't have any issue with the Packers drafting Love in 2019, and I don't have any issue with it now. Green Bay has lacked a decent #2 QB for some time, and if Rodgers played at a high level and they developed a stud behind him they would have options. Options for injury, options for regression, options for Rodgers pouting and taking the ball and going home. It's the responsibility of the front office to protect the franchise against the loss of a player and beyond important to protect the most important position on the team.

[go pak go]

It was a weird weekend. But it happened and we moved on and I'm excited about who he could be and what it could mean, but I'm angry again now that Rodgers' reaction to it has blown up the options.

Yeah. The 2020 draft could have been a forgivable draft that had the potential to be a franchise changing for the better draft but Rodgers is trying his darndest to ensure it is a franchise changing draft for different reasons.

I think that is what make me so frustrated. We have swings and misses in the late 20's all the time. Like who cares. But it is AR12's reaction to this that is making the draft setup to be a massive failure.

And that stinks because everything else done since spring 2019 has been nearly amazing or the potential to be legendary as long as Gary and Savage step up in 2021.