Whose Side Are You On?

From Lambeau to Lombardi, Holmgren, McCarthy and LaFleur and from Starr to Favre, Rodgers and now Jordan Love we’re talking Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers football. This Packers Forum is the place to talk NFL football and everything Packers. So, pull up a keyboard, make yourself at home and let’s talk some Packers football.

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Whose Side

Aaron Rodgers
7
22%
The Front Office
25
78%
 
Total votes: 32

YoHoChecko
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Post by YoHoChecko »

bud fox wrote:
09 Jun 2021 06:00
You want only news that will fit your narrative which makes sense. If it doesn't fit your narrative you will make it by saying it doesn't matter.

It is very typical of a packer fan. It fits the nature or psychology. Packers fans are a conservative bunch. Need direction and have a sense of overarching loyalty to the brand. The problem is the brand is always identified as being what packers.com says. By that I mean the president and GM etc. The simplicity of human sociology and psychology is not more evident than in these forums especially with the current environment.

God bless Aaron Rodgers
What you’re misunderstanding here is that this news DOES fit my narrative. That’s exactly why I’m saying it isn’t exciting or interesting to me.

Jordan Love is developing at the pace I expected Jordan Love to develop. And so that should be reported. But it shouldn’t be treated like this big breaking news.

In case you’ve missed it, I desperately want Rodgers back this year. I think Jordan Love was a high variance outcome pick because he was a clear project. He was the physical talent to be as good as anyone, and he came to a team that would give him the time and the mechanical education that he needs. The remaining variable is the mental processing, and I suppose you could throw in some “intangible” factors.

I want to see Love get his time and mechanical education to maximize his potential. And only AFTER that can I begin to evaluate whether or not he has the mental makeup. Only when a QB isn’t thinking about the fundamentals is his brain free to process the game.

Right now, Jordan Love is still processing the fundamentals. So in order to maximize the possible outcome of Jordan Love the QB, I want to give him more time.

I don’t CARE if a first round pick “should” be here or there in their development. I don’t CARE if it’s his first year or his second year. I’m evaluating what IS and applying it to everything I’ve learned and everything I believe about QB development.

And I’m saying “Jordan Love struggles at first day of minicamp” is a perfectly valid headline, but it is what I expected. So I can’t bring myself to make any sort of big deal about it. And I question those who want to read into it beyond that basic

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Post by NCF »

YoHoChecko wrote:
09 Jun 2021 07:30
And I’m saying “Jordan Love struggles at first day of minicamp” is a perfectly valid headline, but it is what I expected. So I can’t bring myself to make any sort of big deal about it. And I question those who want to read into it beyond that basic
And the first day he does some good things, I bet we'll miss that headline. After all, it's only Minicamp.
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Post by Yoop »

NCF wrote:
09 Jun 2021 07:35
YoHoChecko wrote:
09 Jun 2021 07:30
And I’m saying “Jordan Love struggles at first day of minicamp” is a perfectly valid headline, but it is what I expected. So I can’t bring myself to make any sort of big deal about it. And I question those who want to read into it beyond that basic
And the first day he does some good things, I bet we'll miss that headline. After all, it's only Minicamp.
well, it seems almost normal with the media these days that the good stuff is back burner till some bad stuff over shadows the good, bad stuff gets more clicks.

:mrgreen:

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Post by bud fox »

YoHoChecko wrote:
09 Jun 2021 07:30
bud fox wrote:
09 Jun 2021 06:00
You want only news that will fit your narrative which makes sense. If it doesn't fit your narrative you will make it by saying it doesn't matter.

It is very typical of a packer fan. It fits the nature or psychology. Packers fans are a conservative bunch. Need direction and have a sense of overarching loyalty to the brand. The problem is the brand is always identified as being what packers.com says. By that I mean the president and GM etc. The simplicity of human sociology and psychology is not more evident than in these forums especially with the current environment.

God bless Aaron Rodgers
What you’re misunderstanding here is that this news DOES fit my narrative. That’s exactly why I’m saying it isn’t exciting or interesting to me.

Jordan Love is developing at the pace I expected Jordan Love to develop. And so that should be reported. But it shouldn’t be treated like this big breaking news.

In case you’ve missed it, I desperately want Rodgers back this year. I think Jordan Love was a high variance outcome pick because he was a clear project. He was the physical talent to be as good as anyone, and he came to a team that would give him the time and the mechanical education that he needs. The remaining variable is the mental processing, and I suppose you could throw in some “intangible” factors.

I want to see Love get his time and mechanical education to maximize his potential. And only AFTER that can I begin to evaluate whether or not he has the mental makeup. Only when a QB isn’t thinking about the fundamentals is his brain free to process the game.

Right now, Jordan Love is still processing the fundamentals. So in order to maximize the possible outcome of Jordan Love the QB, I want to give him more time.

I don’t CARE if a first round pick “should” be here or there in their development. I don’t CARE if it’s his first year or his second year. I’m evaluating what IS and applying it to everything I’ve learned and everything I believe about QB development.

And I’m saying “Jordan Love struggles at first day of minicamp” is a perfectly valid headline, but it is what I expected. So I can’t bring myself to make any sort of big deal about it. And I question those who want to read into it beyond that basic
Okay that makes sense.

An expectation he will be bad.

I am crossing threads but I don't think you're comments on 7 year evaluation are realistic. He is a first round pick and should not be given a free pass. Ultimately we are possibly going to lose our modern day rookie cap friendly superbowl window because we need to give him time.

I also need to reiterate that Aaron Rodgers is currently the best QB of all time from a performance perspective. It is unlikely to get that again even if we give our rookie 10 years.

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Post by Yoop »

bud fox wrote:
09 Jun 2021 07:46
YoHoChecko wrote:
09 Jun 2021 07:30
bud fox wrote:
09 Jun 2021 06:00
You want only news that will fit your narrative which makes sense. If it doesn't fit your narrative you will make it by saying it doesn't matter.

It is very typical of a packer fan. It fits the nature or psychology. Packers fans are a conservative bunch. Need direction and have a sense of overarching loyalty to the brand. The problem is the brand is always identified as being what packers.com says. By that I mean the president and GM etc. The simplicity of human sociology and psychology is not more evident than in these forums especially with the current environment.

God bless Aaron Rodgers
What you’re misunderstanding here is that this news DOES fit my narrative. That’s exactly why I’m saying it isn’t exciting or interesting to me.

Jordan Love is developing at the pace I expected Jordan Love to develop. And so that should be reported. But it shouldn’t be treated like this big breaking news.

In case you’ve missed it, I desperately want Rodgers back this year. I think Jordan Love was a high variance outcome pick because he was a clear project. He was the physical talent to be as good as anyone, and he came to a team that would give him the time and the mechanical education that he needs. The remaining variable is the mental processing, and I suppose you could throw in some “intangible” factors.

I want to see Love get his time and mechanical education to maximize his potential. And only AFTER that can I begin to evaluate whether or not he has the mental makeup. Only when a QB isn’t thinking about the fundamentals is his brain free to process the game.

Right now, Jordan Love is still processing the fundamentals. So in order to maximize the possible outcome of Jordan Love the QB, I want to give him more time.

I don’t CARE if a first round pick “should” be here or there in their development. I don’t CARE if it’s his first year or his second year. I’m evaluating what IS and applying it to everything I’ve learned and everything I believe about QB development.

And I’m saying “Jordan Love struggles at first day of minicamp” is a perfectly valid headline, but it is what I expected. So I can’t bring myself to make any sort of big deal about it. And I question those who want to read into it beyond that basic
Okay that makes sense.

An expectation he will be bad.

I am crossing threads but I don't think you're comments on 7 year evaluation are realistic. He is a first round pick and should not be given a free pass. Ultimately we are possibly going to lose our modern day rookie cap friendly superbowl window because we need to give him time.

I also need to reiterate that Aaron Rodgers is currently the best QB of all time from a performance perspective. It is unlikely to get that again even if we give our rookie 10 years.
Yoho never mentioned a 7 year time frame to evaluate any player, I've tried to defend some of the stuff you sau, but you make it really hard to with comments like these.

and everyone knows replacing Rodgers would be a miracle, everyone, why even insert something like that into this convo.

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Post by NCF »

Light at the end of the tunnel?

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Post by BF004 »

NCF wrote:
09 Jun 2021 08:53
Light at the end of the tunnel?

Isn't that basically what I kind of said a few pages back? This thread or another.
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Post by NCF »

BF004 wrote:
09 Jun 2021 09:03
Isn't that basically what I kind of said a few pages back? This thread or another.
Yes and I called it stupid. How is it fixable? What needs to happen to fix it? Seems overly simple to fix when I think about it. Apology and a few new policies going forward to remedy the issue?
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Post by TheSkeptic »

No, replacing AR will not be a miracle. It will be a certainty. He will be replaced, sooner or later. Possibly by another great QB and possibly by an average QB that takes a much smaller % of the salary cap. Either way there is a path to SB's.

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Post by YoHoChecko »

The James Jones interview... especially when asked what the major beef actually is and he responded "that's a conversation I have to keep private" indicates to me that there is A THING that Rodgers is bothered by, more specific than the general way James Jones explained it after that, about people being allowed to leave the building.

But it is becoming maybe clearer, right?

Like, let's start with 2016 when Josh Sitton is a surprise cut. Sitton was considered a leader on the team, both of the OLine and the offense in general. My sense at the time was that Sitton had turned sour on the team and the team recognized the danger of a leader who is "leading" the troops against team management and let him go.

In 2017 was TJ Lang, who introduced us to this general management practice (even though there was slightly different management at the time)
Lang, who likely would be the Packers’ most expensive free agent to re-sign, said Monday in an interview on SiriusXM NFL Radio that he “hasn’t heard a word” from the Packers about a new contract.

“I said it after the season about obviously wanting to stay in Green Bay, and I still feel that way, but at this point I don’t really have any other options,” Lang said. “I have to prepare as if I’m going to hit the open market and see what the options are.”
Now, before March came, he did report that there had been "some contact," so it didn't stay silent, but that quote still resonated with us as fans.

Then in 2018 Jordy gets cut with one year left on his deal. This, to me, is a big one; maybe THE big one. James Jones mentioned him in some detail, that having a guy who can finish the QB's sentences might be more productive and important than having a guy who's a step faster. Jordy's play in Oakland justified the move, but from the QB's point of view, this seems big. Jordy at the time said he was "hurt" by the "unceremonius cut." This quote hits different now than it did 3 years ago.
Nelson was slated to enter the final year of a four-year, $39 million deal with the Packers this season that came with a cap hit of more than $12 million. He anticipated being asked to take a pay cut, and even considered it, up until he spoke with new Green Bay general manager Brian Gutekunst.

"I think the [pay cut] number was part of it, but also the conversation I had in the meeting," Nelson said. "I met with Brian and had a discussion because I had to get a feel for not just the pay cut but what their plans were going forward. After that meeting, there wasn't, I don't think, much desire there. I think with the combination of both, we decided what was best for myself and my family [just] as they decided what was best for them and the Packers."
Rodgers signed his big extension, though, like 4 months later. So he was probably bothered by it, but hadn't identified it as a pattern.

There is a small parade of players who have reported/stated that leading up to free agency they heard absolute radio silence, and I wish I could remember more of them. So Jordy talks about wanting to know their plans moving forward regarding him, and was unsatisfied with the meeting. Lang talks about wanting to remain a Packer and hearing nothing. This happened again this offseason with Linsley.
Packers center Corey Linsley said Thursday that while he doesn't necessarily want to leave Green Bay, he feels as if his departure is coming in March.

"We're not closing the door for anything," Linsley told SiriusXM NFL Radio. "Obviously we'd never do that for any team, especially the Packers, but yeah it definitely feels weird. Looks like all signs are pointing towards snapping the ball somewhere else next year."
We also of course have Aaron Rodgers calling Jake Kumerow a "lock" for the roster the day before he got cut in final roster cutdowns. This came up in reporting in a way that was almost comical, given the absolute nonfactor that Kumerow had been, but as was mentioned at the time, Rodgers made comments about this during the season, stating in a press conference "the last time I praised a guy he ended up in Buffalo so I'll keep those comments to myself."

And then we have his "people" rant.
It’s never been about the draft pick, picking Jordan. I love Jordan. He’s a great kid. Lot of fun to work together. I love the coaching staff, love my teammates. Love the fan base in Green Bay. Incredible 16 years. It’s just kind of about a philosophy, you know? And maybe forgetting that it is about the people that make the thing go.

It’s about character. It’s about culture. It’s about doing things the right way. A lot of this was put in motion last year. The wrench was just kind of thrown into it when I won the MVP and played the way I played last year. So this is just kind of I think the spill out of all that. But look, man, it is about the people, and that’s the most important thing. Green Bay has always been about the people, from Curly Lambeau being owner and founder to the ’60s with Lombardi and Bart Starr and all those incredible names to the ’90s teams with Coach Holmgren and Favrey and the Minister of Defense to the run that we’ve been on. It’s about the people.
So now, we're getting an idea that Rodgers wants the team to be more sentimental about who it releases, to give Rodgers' opinions of which OLinemen and WRs he likes having around him some weight, and probably most of all, to let the players know, more candidly and more empathetically, what the team plans for them are when the time is coming. Jordy wanted to know the plan for him. Lang wanted to know the plan. Linsley wanted to know the plan. And Rodgers feels like he intuited his own replacement plan primarily because they didn't communicate with him clearly what their plan was.

Those, I think, are reasonable things to be upset about and want to see changed. They are also backward-looking gripes which means there isn't a great resolution for it.

I STILL think the best way out of this is for Gutey to address the team, tell them he has heard their concerns, Aaron's concerns. Open his door for players to come in and have a conversation with him about those types of grievances. I think they should hire someone in the front office to be some sort of a player liason to keep the FO accountable to the goals they are setting out, and that person should be present for the meetings and should be someone the team knows and trusts--likely a former player. Then, after addressing the team, making the hire, holding the meetings, and implementing some sort of communication reforms, (some of which will leak to the media) the team should formally announce it in a press release the day before Gutey has media access for a press conference. And then he can make his case that concerns have been heard, that the situation is ongoing, and that they still want Aaron Rodgers back. Rodgers comes back, he needs very little (if any) personal accommodations made, and to his teammates he's the hero who fought for their humanity and dignity in a dog-eat-dog business.

If he doesn't come back, despite all of that, to the outside world he's the villain who pretends to make it about the team and the people but it's really about him and his selfish demands.

That's my take. That's my plan.

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Post by Madcity_matt »

It's a game of replacement. As I've heard it said, "If you're old and slow and make too much dough...you gotta go." I think it's reasonable for the front office to make the decisions about what's best for the long term success of the team, and for the players to play football. I'm good with Yoho's idea of a player liason but ultimately if you're a player and you've hit the point where your compensation is more than your value to the team, it's time to move on. Father time is undefeated. Aaron is starting to hear father time's footsteps and is afraid that he won't be worth the monstrous sums he is due in the next few years. Easiest solution is to play at a high level and make yourself irreplaceable. If football players were allowed to retire on their own terms, they would almost all stick around a year ot two too long.

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Post by wallyuwl »

NCF wrote:
09 Jun 2021 08:53
Light at the end of the tunnel?

Is this new? I remember him saying basically the same thing a few weeks ago.

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Post by NCF »

wallyuwl wrote:
09 Jun 2021 10:54
Is this new? I remember him saying basically the same thing a few weeks ago.
Yeah, today. You are right, basically echoing what he said last time.
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Post by Raptorman »

BF004 wrote:
09 Jun 2021 06:52
Raptorman wrote:
08 Jun 2021 20:15
ME. :cigar:

Only because there is no popcorn-eating smile on this forum.
:munch:
Guess I missed that.

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Post by Willink »

lol, James Jones is clearly doing damage control

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Post by Labrev »

This is a tough one. As is often the case when it comes to things like this, there is some tension between competing interests, but I think that that tension should be embraced and fully understood.

On one hand, as a matter of conviction, I support Rodgers bargaining for what he feels is a fair deal (on principle). And it seems like what a "fair deal" is for him in this case is a new contract with built-in job security by making it impracticable to replace him with another QB... or something.

And tbh, I wouldn't hate it if he got that. Rodgers clearly has MVP-caliber years in him yet and I do think that it could be a treat to watch him age into the savvy, experienced veteran signal-caller rather than the one in his prime who wins on pure talent superiority. And I do feel like, regardless how the negotiations work out, that Rodgers has earned the right to have a say in where he ends up being traded if/when it comes to that.

On the other hand, as a "consumer" of the Packers and Rodgers brands, I want Lombardi trophies. Thus, I am not really in favor of what he (seemingly) wants -- not at the price it will likely take. It's not even about the money so much as the opportunity cost; paying Rodgers means we lose some of the key young talented pieces on our roster.
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Post by Labrev »

And there's where I break with ardent Rodgers supporters -- yes, Rodgers is good enough to carry middling teams into relevance... but he is NOT good enough to carry playoff teams to the SuperBowl. And at 38, I cannot justify paying Top-5 QB money for that. =/

The Catch-22 with Rodgers is that he needs a well-balanced team around him to get over the hump (and on two or three occasions, even that was not enough), yet we can't really deliver that to Rodgers with his contract. I am hardly very high on Love or anything, but that Rodgers conundrum is what makes the idea of moving forward with Love attractive. Love will also need such a squad around him to be successful early, but at least he will likely be cheap enough for us to actually do that.
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Post by williewasgreat »

YoHoChecko wrote:
09 Jun 2021 09:25
The James Jones interview... especially when asked what the major beef actually is and he responded "that's a conversation I have to keep private" indicates to me that there is A THING that Rodgers is bothered by, more specific than the general way James Jones explained it after that, about people being allowed to leave the building.

But it is becoming maybe clearer, right?

Like, let's start with 2016 when Josh Sitton is a surprise cut. Sitton was considered a leader on the team, both of the OLine and the offense in general. My sense at the time was that Sitton had turned sour on the team and the team recognized the danger of a leader who is "leading" the troops against team management and let him go.

In 2017 was TJ Lang, who introduced us to this general management practice (even though there was slightly different management at the time)
Lang, who likely would be the Packers’ most expensive free agent to re-sign, said Monday in an interview on SiriusXM NFL Radio that he “hasn’t heard a word” from the Packers about a new contract.

“I said it after the season about obviously wanting to stay in Green Bay, and I still feel that way, but at this point I don’t really have any other options,” Lang said. “I have to prepare as if I’m going to hit the open market and see what the options are.”
Now, before March came, he did report that there had been "some contact," so it didn't stay silent, but that quote still resonated with us as fans.

Then in 2018 Jordy gets cut with one year left on his deal. This, to me, is a big one; maybe THE big one. James Jones mentioned him in some detail, that having a guy who can finish the QB's sentences might be more productive and important than having a guy who's a step faster. Jordy's play in Oakland justified the move, but from the QB's point of view, this seems big. Jordy at the time said he was "hurt" by the "unceremonius cut." This quote hits different now than it did 3 years ago.
Nelson was slated to enter the final year of a four-year, $39 million deal with the Packers this season that came with a cap hit of more than $12 million. He anticipated being asked to take a pay cut, and even considered it, up until he spoke with new Green Bay general manager Brian Gutekunst.

"I think the [pay cut] number was part of it, but also the conversation I had in the meeting," Nelson said. "I met with Brian and had a discussion because I had to get a feel for not just the pay cut but what their plans were going forward. After that meeting, there wasn't, I don't think, much desire there. I think with the combination of both, we decided what was best for myself and my family [just] as they decided what was best for them and the Packers."
Rodgers signed his big extension, though, like 4 months later. So he was probably bothered by it, but hadn't identified it as a pattern.

There is a small parade of players who have reported/stated that leading up to free agency they heard absolute radio silence, and I wish I could remember more of them. So Jordy talks about wanting to know their plans moving forward regarding him, and was unsatisfied with the meeting. Lang talks about wanting to remain a Packer and hearing nothing. This happened again this offseason with Linsley.
Packers center Corey Linsley said Thursday that while he doesn't necessarily want to leave Green Bay, he feels as if his departure is coming in March.

"We're not closing the door for anything," Linsley told SiriusXM NFL Radio. "Obviously we'd never do that for any team, especially the Packers, but yeah it definitely feels weird. Looks like all signs are pointing towards snapping the ball somewhere else next year."
We also of course have Aaron Rodgers calling Jake Kumerow a "lock" for the roster the day before he got cut in final roster cutdowns. This came up in reporting in a way that was almost comical, given the absolute nonfactor that Kumerow had been, but as was mentioned at the time, Rodgers made comments about this during the season, stating in a press conference "the last time I praised a guy he ended up in Buffalo so I'll keep those comments to myself."

And then we have his "people" rant.
It’s never been about the draft pick, picking Jordan. I love Jordan. He’s a great kid. Lot of fun to work together. I love the coaching staff, love my teammates. Love the fan base in Green Bay. Incredible 16 years. It’s just kind of about a philosophy, you know? And maybe forgetting that it is about the people that make the thing go.

It’s about character. It’s about culture. It’s about doing things the right way. A lot of this was put in motion last year. The wrench was just kind of thrown into it when I won the MVP and played the way I played last year. So this is just kind of I think the spill out of all that. But look, man, it is about the people, and that’s the most important thing. Green Bay has always been about the people, from Curly Lambeau being owner and founder to the ’60s with Lombardi and Bart Starr and all those incredible names to the ’90s teams with Coach Holmgren and Favrey and the Minister of Defense to the run that we’ve been on. It’s about the people.
So now, we're getting an idea that Rodgers wants the team to be more sentimental about who it releases, to give Rodgers' opinions of which OLinemen and WRs he likes having around him some weight, and probably most of all, to let the players know, more candidly and more empathetically, what the team plans for them are when the time is coming. Jordy wanted to know the plan for him. Lang wanted to know the plan. Linsley wanted to know the plan. And Rodgers feels like he intuited his own replacement plan primarily because they didn't communicate with him clearly what their plan was.

Those, I think, are reasonable things to be upset about and want to see changed. They are also backward-looking gripes which means there isn't a great resolution for it.

I STILL think the best way out of this is for Gutey to address the team, tell them he has heard their concerns, Aaron's concerns. Open his door for players to come in and have a conversation with him about those types of grievances. I think they should hire someone in the front office to be some sort of a player liason to keep the FO accountable to the goals they are setting out, and that person should be present for the meetings and should be someone the team knows and trusts--likely a former player. Then, after addressing the team, making the hire, holding the meetings, and implementing some sort of communication reforms, (some of which will leak to the media) the team should formally announce it in a press release the day before Gutey has media access for a press conference. And then he can make his case that concerns have been heard, that the situation is ongoing, and that they still want Aaron Rodgers back. Rodgers comes back, he needs very little (if any) personal accommodations made, and to his teammates he's the hero who fought for their humanity and dignity in a dog-eat-dog business.

If he doesn't come back, despite all of that, to the outside world he's the villain who pretends to make it about the team and the people but it's really about him and his selfish demands.

That's my take. That's my plan.
I think what you have quite clearly highlighted is the Packer's FO communication issues. For whatever reason, they don't want to communicate with their players. I find this a horrible practice and most definitely needs to change. Treat their players like adults and talk to them like any employer should do. This secretive approach makes them look small and untrustworthy. I think this might be the "character" issue that Rodgers is referring to.

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Post by NCF »

It's a hard line to walk between being direct and honest and being blatantly insulting. How do you tell a Jordy Nelson, "OK, here's the deal, we will have you back, but on a minimum, non-guaranteed salary so we can cut you if your preseason performance is lesser than these rookies." Silence almost seems better, but it's not and these conversations have to be had.
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Post by Yoop »

Jordy new his time here was short, and that his contract #'s where to high, instead of the FO reaching out to see if Jordy would accept a more team friendly deal to retire a Packer, they cut bait and used 3 mid level picks hoping at least one could replace what Nelson still had to offer, none came any where near it in 3 years.

as with other departed vets, guys that gave a 100% to the team, it appears the FO had no intention of retaining the players whether the player would take a discount salary, or not, and let them know there services where no longer needed through one or another outside the FO media sources, completely cutting ties with the player, to expect players not to be insulted with the way this FO handles these situation goes against reality, of course players feel slighted.

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