2021 Post Draft Discussion

[Yoop]

ya have to try and line up pick to value, but if your CB position is void of talent for instance then somehow you have to take the best available player at the position as Thompson did with Randal, not to is idiotic

In defending your "pick for needs" opinion you just illustrated exactly why you don't do that with your "Randal" example.

Randall was considered the best DB left when we took him, and he was our best CB his 2nd season, we had to have CB's and Ted took 2 of em, now we can argue that he should have used UFA to get a more experienced vet, sure, but ted treated UFA like it was a hot stove, or scalding water, avoid at all cost, the year before that draft our CB room was full of marginal back ups, I doubt any went else where and started, Randal was at least a starting caliber player, Rollins was a miss, both where picks in hopes of adding talent to a near talentless position, and if your averse to using UFA then a GM has to draft for need, no way around this concerning positions like CB and edge rusher, thats why the good ones are off the board fast in every draft, and the not so good are reached for and over drafted, can't play defense without them.

[BF004]

This value and rating thing really needs to stop.

The 3 guys at The Draft Network or even Todd McShay really don’t know what they are doing, don’t have the access nfl teams do, they don’t meet with friends, family, high school and college coaches and teachers, doctors and trainers, talk with their coaching staff to know what traits are most desired specific to that one team and staff.

Public draft rankings are borderline irrelevant when determining good picks or value. Literally worthless to judge before a few years.


If you draft a good player, it was good value, period.

[go pak go]

This value and rating thing really needs to stop.

The 3 guys at The Draft Network or even Todd McShay really don’t know what they are doing, don’t have the access nfl teams do, they don’t meet with friends, family, high school and college coaches and teachers, doctors and trainers, talk with their coaching staff to know what traits are most desired specific to that one team and staff.

Public draft rankings are borderline irrelevant when determining good picks or value. Literally worthless to judge before a few years.


If you draft a good player, it was good value, period.

[Pckfn23]

This value and rating thing really needs to stop.

The 3 guys at The Draft Network or even Todd McShay really don’t know what they are doing, don’t have the access nfl teams do, they don’t meet with friends, family, high school and college coaches and teachers, doctors and trainers, talk with their coaching staff to know what traits are most desired specific to that one team and staff.

Public draft rankings are borderline irrelevant when determining good picks or value. Literally worthless to judge before a few years.


If you draft a good player, it was good value, period.

[Yoop]

This value and rating thing really needs to stop.

The 3 guys at The Draft Network or even Todd McShay really don’t know what they are doing, don’t have the access nfl teams do, they don’t meet with friends, family, high school and college coaches and teachers, doctors and trainers, talk with their coaching staff to know what traits are most desired specific to that one team and staff.

Public draft rankings are borderline irrelevant when determining good picks or value. Literally worthless to judge before a few years.


If you draft a good player, it was good value, period.

ya don't have to be a football genius to know that this or that player was dominent college, and will probably be the same in the pros, dummy's don't put together draft rankings of players, and while they may be wrong or miss out on talent some, so do scouts and GM's

this convo was also about GM's drafting for need, and we've watched this happen almost every season with us, heck GM's double and triple pick a position just to be sure one of the picks will pan out, Wolf did it with Edwards, Vinson and Newsome, Ted did it with Randal and Rollins.

anyway, have a happy Fathers day everyone

[go pak go]

This value and rating thing really needs to stop.

The 3 guys at The Draft Network or even Todd McShay really don’t know what they are doing, don’t have the access nfl teams do, they don’t meet with friends, family, high school and college coaches and teachers, doctors and trainers, talk with their coaching staff to know what traits are most desired specific to that one team and staff.

Public draft rankings are borderline irrelevant when determining good picks or value. Literally worthless to judge before a few years.


If you draft a good player, it was good value, period.

ya don't have to be a football genius to know that this or that player was dominent college,

That's the thing though. Scouting is significantly tougher than that because often times it does not come down to if that player was dominant in college.

But that's why "needs" drafting or "value" drafting doesn't make sense. D. Randle was a terrible pick. Absolutely terrible pick. I don't care if he was the best DB at the time. We now can judge it and it was absolutely god awful. Filling a need did jack sh*t because we had to try and fill that need again in 2017, twice in 2018 and now again in 2021.

It's why I don't get too involved in judging picks until after year 3. Because until then, none of that makes sense.

[go pak go]

This value and rating thing really needs to stop.

The 3 guys at The Draft Network or even Todd McShay really don’t know what they are doing, don’t have the access nfl teams do, they don’t meet with friends, family, high school and college coaches and teachers, doctors and trainers, talk with their coaching staff to know what traits are most desired specific to that one team and staff.

Public draft rankings are borderline irrelevant when determining good picks or value. Literally worthless to judge before a few years.


If you draft a good player, it was good value, period.

ya don't have to be a football genius to know that this or that player was dominent college,

That's the thing though. Scouting is significantly tougher than that because often times it does not come down to if that player was dominant in college.

But that's why "needs" drafting or "value" drafting doesn't make sense. D. Randle was a terrible pick. Absolutely terrible pick. I don't care if he was the best DB at the time. We now can judge it and it was absolutely god awful. Filling a need did jack sh*t because we had to try and fill that need again in 2017, twice in 2018 and now again in 2021.

It's why I don't get too involved in judging picks until after year 3. Because until then, none of that makes sense.

I have no problem yelling at the FO for having a bad pick. But it's more about the FO not scouting well than it is about getting good "value"

[Yoop]

This value and rating thing really needs to stop.

The 3 guys at The Draft Network or even Todd McShay really don’t know what they are doing, don’t have the access nfl teams do, they don’t meet with friends, family, high school and college coaches and teachers, doctors and trainers, talk with their coaching staff to know what traits are most desired specific to that one team and staff.

Public draft rankings are borderline irrelevant when determining good picks or value. Literally worthless to judge before a few years.


If you draft a good player, it was good value, period.

ya don't have to be a football genius to know that this or that player was dominent college,

That's the thing though. Scouting is significantly tougher than that because often times it does not come down to if that player was dominant in college.

But that's why "needs" drafting or "value" drafting doesn't make sense. D. Randle was a terrible pick. Absolutely terrible pick. I don't care if he was the best DB at the time. We now can judge it and it was absolutely god awful. Filling a need did jack sh*t because we had to try and fill that need again in 2017, twice in 2018 and now again in 2021.

It's why I don't get too involved in judging picks until after year 3. Because until then, none of that makes sense.

I have no problem yelling at the FO for having a bad pick. But it's more about the FO not scouting well than it is about getting good "value"

who wouldn't pick BPA with every pick if they could? I'am just saying it's not that simple, and whether you think Randal was a poor choice or not, which he wasn't, doesn't matter, if ya need CB's your gonna take CB's, so Ted took 2 of em, and thats what all GM's do,

you can now look back and judge any draft pick , thats not the case on draft day, and you have to fix that position, so you draft players to do so or you buy them, your choice, but not to do so is not a option, so if your not willing to buy them, then you draft them, usually a team will have several positions that need new talent, but if there CB room is as bad as ours was, that position will get priority, and it did, and Randal became better then anyone we had prior to that draft, he sure didn't suck.

[go pak go]

The 2014 CB group was absolutely loaded.

Tramon Williams
Sam Shields
Casey Hayward
Micah Hyde
Devon House

Absolutely. loaded.

Ted Thompson made a fatal error in completely overhauling that position when it didn't need to happen. It was one of his worst moves IMO as a GM. The fact he didn't entertain resigning Hayward in 2015 or Hyde in 2016 completely goes against the draft and develop philosophy and the Packers paid the price dearly. I get you can't pay everyone and Shields unexpectedly ended his career because of injury, but he should have split the difference with either Hyde or Hayward and didn't.

And yes. The Randle pick was a horrible draft pick. Because we can use lookback history now. He cost us the 2015 playoffs. He was a POS teammate and couldn't hack in Cleveland or Oakland and spent the 2020 season on the Seahawks Practice Squad. It would have been his 5th NFL season. That is the very definition of a horrible draft pick and career. Bust. Bust. Bust.

It makes far more sense to say Randle is a bad pick compared to any pick right now that is based purely on projection and emotion or feelings of what was wanted as an alternative.

[Drj820]

Ted Thompson made a fatal error in completely overhauling that position when it didn't need to happen.

Teds successor went a similar route in 2020 with the QB room.

“Brian Gutekunst made a fatal error in completely overhauling the qb position when it didn’t need to happen”

Works perfect!

[go pak go]

Ted Thompson made a fatal error in completely overhauling that position when it didn't need to happen.

Teds successor went a similar route in 2020 with the QB room.

“Brian Gutekunst made a fatal error in completely overhauling the qb position when it didn’t need to happen”

Works perfect!

No I don't think they are in the same area at all.

Ted chose to move on from his young star CBs and his aging CBs. Ted actively decided to not resign his top 3 CBs in a two year period to save money and instead throw a 1st round pick and 2nd round at the position in hopes they could level the position in their rookie seasons. That is a bold move when you consider the volume of players the Packers had. I will once again state though the caveat, the Packers could not predict losing Sam Shields for his career and Ted should be given that benefit of doubt. However. The Packers are a draft and develop team. Meaning they DRAFT and DEVELOP. And when their two drafted players developed, Ted didn't even give a call to Hayward or Hyde. That is the cardinal sin of the draft and develop program.

Gutey on the other hand drafted one player while at the same time paying and keeping his current player. Gutey didn't draft the player to force into a rookie role like Ted did with Randle and Rollins. Gutey instead planned the position for long term with a slow transition or no transition at all if Love couldn't hack it.

I think you're reaching for straws to try and correlate the two.

[Drj820]

Ted Thompson made a fatal error in completely overhauling that position when it didn't need to happen.

Teds successor went a similar route in 2020 with the QB room.

“Brian Gutekunst made a fatal error in completely overhauling the qb position when it didn’t need to happen”

Works perfect!

No I don't think they are in the same area at all.

Ted chose to move on from his young star CBs and his aging CBs. Ted actively decided to not resign his top 3 CBs in a two year period to save money and instead throw a 1st round pick and 2nd round at the position in hopes they could level the position in their rookie seasons. That is a bold move when you consider the volume of players the Packers had. I will once again state though the caveat, the Packers could not predict losing Sam Shields for his career and Ted should be given that benefit of doubt. However. The Packers are a draft and develop team. Meaning they DRAFT and DEVELOP. And when their two drafted players developed, Ted didn't even give a call to Hayward or Hyde. That is the cardinal sin of the draft and develop program.

Gutey on the other hand drafted one player while at the same time paying and keeping his current player. Gutey didn't draft the player to force into a rookie role like Ted did with Randle and Rollins. Gutey instead planned the position for long term with a slow transition or no transition at all if Love couldn't hack it.

I think you're reaching for straws to try and correlate the two.

Gutey chose to move on from his young back up qb Timmy Boyle and his aging qb. Gutey actively decided not to resign Boyle to save money and instead threw a first and 4th round pick at the position in hopes he could level the position in the draft picks Rookie contract. I will once again state though the caveat, the Packers could not predict losing Aaron Rodgers after the 2020 season. They wanted to dump the qb in 2022, not 21 and Gutey should be given that benefit of doubt. Gutey drafting Love to replace Rodgers is a bold move when you consider how good Rodgers was still playing. The Packers are a draft and develop team. Meaning they DRAFT and DEVELOP players with the intention to play them, And when they drafted love, Gutey didn't even give a call to Rodgers. That is the cardinal sin of the draft and develop program.

I still think it’s perfect!

[Yoop]

Haywards best season as a Packer was his rookie season, and he didn't play with the same intensity till his first season with the Chargers, where he had 2 PB season and has been average ever since, who knows why he didn't play well after his injured 2nd season with us, all we know is that he didn't

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ywCa00.htm

I agree it seemed short sighted to dump Williams, obviously he wasn't as good as he had been but he was still a very good CB.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... llTr99.htm

Randals rookie year was his best with us and on par with Williams last 2 seasons, he was never able to stay healthy enough to duplicate it, and blew up at the coaches on a judgement decision that he got wrong and was traded.

who knows why Ted decided that it was time to rebuild the CB position, obviously he didn't feel like paying Hayward starter money when he hadn't been the starter, and T. Willy did show moderate decline, point is GM's positional draft, they have to.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ndDa00.htm

[go pak go]

Teds successor went a similar route in 2020 with the QB room.

“Brian Gutekunst made a fatal error in completely overhauling the qb position when it didn’t need to happen”

Works perfect!

No I don't think they are in the same area at all.

Ted chose to move on from his young star CBs and his aging CBs. Ted actively decided to not resign his top 3 CBs in a two year period to save money and instead throw a 1st round pick and 2nd round at the position in hopes they could level the position in their rookie seasons. That is a bold move when you consider the volume of players the Packers had. I will once again state though the caveat, the Packers could not predict losing Sam Shields for his career and Ted should be given that benefit of doubt. However. The Packers are a draft and develop team. Meaning they DRAFT and DEVELOP. And when their two drafted players developed, Ted didn't even give a call to Hayward or Hyde. That is the cardinal sin of the draft and develop program.

Gutey on the other hand drafted one player while at the same time paying and keeping his current player. Gutey didn't draft the player to force into a rookie role like Ted did with Randle and Rollins. Gutey instead planned the position for long term with a slow transition or no transition at all if Love couldn't hack it.

I think you're reaching for straws to try and correlate the two.

Gutey chose to move on from his young back up qb Timmy Boyle and his aging qb. Gutey actively decided not to resign Boyle to save money and instead threw a first and 4th round pick at the position in hopes he could level the position in the draft picks Rookie contract. I will once again state though the caveat, the Packers could not predict losing Aaron Rodgers after the 2020 season. They wanted to dump the qb in 2022, not 21 and Gutey should be given that benefit of doubt. Gutey drafting Love to replace Rodgers is a bold move when you consider how good Rodgers was still playing. The Packers are a draft and develop team. Meaning they DRAFT and DEVELOP players with the intention to play them, And when they drafted love, Gutey didn't even give a call to Rodgers. That is the cardinal sin of the draft and develop program.

I still think it’s perfect!

The only thing I see accurate here is not calling Rodgers.

Jordan Love makes more than Tim Boyle. Drafting Love was not about saving money but instead looking at the long term future of the position.

But yes. The Packers didn't call Rodgers. Definitely a mistake. Especially hindsight.

[go pak go]

Haywards best season as a Packer was his rookie season, and he didn't play with the same intensity till his first season with the Chargers, where he had 2 PB season and has been average ever since, who knows why he didn't play well after his injured 2nd season with us, all we know is that he didn't

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ywCa00.htm

I agree it seemed short sighted to dump Williams, obviously he wasn't as good as he had been but he was still a very good CB.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... llTr99.htm

Randals rookie year was his best with us and on par with Williams last 2 seasons, he was never able to stay healthy enough to duplicate it, and blew up at the coaches on a judgement decision that he got wrong and was traded.

who knows why Ted decided that it was time to rebuild the CB position, obviously he didn't feel like paying Hayward starter money when he hadn't been the starter, and T. Willy did show moderate decline, point is GM's positional draft, they have to.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ndDa00.htm

And the bigger point is it was wrong. Clear as day it was wrong. The two DBs who leave GB have pro-bowl/All Pro seasons and the two players the Packers drafted were cut into their 3rd season and are now both out of the league.

Every GM has a reason for everything. But we now have the ability to look back and make judgements. And there is no question TT was oh so wrong. Erik Kendricks was available and a very viable option. If we didn't "chase" the DB need that should have never been a need to start, we could have selected a very talented ILB who was also a high rated player at the time.

Again. Looking back, that was right move (to not deplete your secondary that you invested draft capital in just a few years prior and instead draft an ILB). I didn't like the move at the time of the draft. But I kept quiet and let it play out to make any judgements. Now I can make the judgement and it was a horrible move.

[Yoop]

Haywards best season as a Packer was his rookie season, and he didn't play with the same intensity till his first season with the Chargers, where he had 2 PB season and has been average ever since, who knows why he didn't play well after his injured 2nd season with us, all we know is that he didn't

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ywCa00.htm

I agree it seemed short sighted to dump Williams, obviously he wasn't as good as he had been but he was still a very good CB.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... llTr99.htm

Randals rookie year was his best with us and on par with Williams last 2 seasons, he was never able to stay healthy enough to duplicate it, and blew up at the coaches on a judgement decision that he got wrong and was traded.

who knows why Ted decided that it was time to rebuild the CB position, obviously he didn't feel like paying Hayward starter money when he hadn't been the starter, and T. Willy did show moderate decline, point is GM's positional draft, they have to.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ndDa00.htm

And the bigger point is it was wrong. Clear as day it was wrong. The two DBs who leave GB have pro-bowl/All Pro seasons and the two players the Packers drafted were cut into their 3rd season and are now both out of the league.

Every GM has a reason for everything. But we now have the ability to look back and make judgements. And there is no question TT was oh so wrong. Erik Kendricks was available and a very viable option. If we didn't "chase" the DB need that should have never been a need to start, we could have selected a very talented ILB who was also a high rated player at the time.

Again. Looking back, that was right move (to not deplete your secondary that you invested draft capital in just a few years prior and instead draft an ILB). I didn't like the move at the time of the draft. But I kept quiet and let it play out to make any judgements. Now I can make the judgement and it was a horrible move.

ya well we all question stuff GM's do now don't we? point is they make judgement calls, some go well some don't, Ted also took some DL almost year after year because we needed them and they didn't pan out either, as I just showed you Hayward was never the player for us that we and TED thought he would be, and T Willy was in fact trending down.

and every season WE see players passed over who WE think would have been better choices, but again we can only confirm it with hind sight, I bet plenty of GM's had Randall rated higher then Kendricks, and would have taken him based mostly due to positional priority.

I love the part about investing capitol recently, Hayward had been here 4 years, and never played with the intensity he had as a rookie the last 3 years, and Hyde was never better then Dix at safety for us, and couldn't beat out the starting CB's, the D&D has to show improved results, or you start over, thats how that works. Ted may have missed per se, but he was following the age old tradition of D&D to a tee.

[YoHoChecko]

Honestly [mention]Yoop[/mention], you have to know this post is absurd.

Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde are better football players than Damarius Randall, HaHa Clinton-Dix, and Quinton Rollins.

The only evidence you need is their careers. Randall and Dix are working out and trying out and on practice squads. Hyde and Hayward have been gainfully employed starters for years. There is ZERO excuse, schematic or otherwise, to try to say that HaHa or Randall were good but mis-used because they have been tried by several other teams and can't make an impact. They had promise, but they were never much good and they never made good on it. There is nothing to debate here. Their careers tell the whole story. There is no opinion or judgment needed here. The FACTS speak for themselves.

Casey Hayward was a good player who went and signed elsewhere and outplayed his attempted replacements handily over the course of their next contracts.

Micah Hyde is a slightly-overrated but still very good starting safety for a very good secondary on a very good defense and has been for years. I think his Pro Bowl was a bit of a fluke and he hasn't replicated that high-level play since; but it's NOTHING like the fluke that was HaHa's Pro Bowl selection, given that he couldn't maintain even competent starting play as his career progress, and he now is on a try-out basis looking for work. He stinks.

[Yoop]

Honestly @Yoop, you have to know this post is absurd.

Casey Hayward and Micah Hyde are better football players than Damarius Randall, HaHa Clinton-Dix, and Quinton Rollins.

The only evidence you need is their careers. Randall and Dix are working out and trying out and on practice squads. Hyde and Hayward have been gainfully employed starters for years. There is ZERO excuse, schematic or otherwise, to try to say that HaHa or Randall were good but mis-used because they have been tried by several other teams and can't make an impact. They had promise, but they were never much good and they never made good on it. There is nothing to debate here. Their careers tell the whole story. There is no opinion or judgment needed here. The FACTS speak for themselves.

Casey Hayward was a good player who went and signed elsewhere and outplayed his attempted replacements handily over the course of their next contracts.

Micah Hyde is a slightly-overrated but still very good starting safety for a very good secondary on a very good defense and has been for years. I think his Pro Bowl was a bit of a fluke and he hasn't replicated that high-level play since; but it's NOTHING like the fluke that was HaHa's Pro Bowl selection, given that he couldn't maintain even competent starting play as his career progress, and he now is on a try-out basis looking for work. He stinks.

honestly Yoho that was not the case when they played for us, and thats why Ted dumped them, what are you now going to join GPG in thinking you would have known better what to do back then over Thompson?

Hyde didn't have the tackles #'s or the pd's prior to Dix taking over

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... deMi00.htm

Dix had two less seasons and 50 more career tackles and was also better in PD, granted Dix seemed to turn into a head case, but he had talent and benched Hyde in 5 games as a rookie

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... inHa00.htm

and it's absurd to think there play would have improved with us the way it did after they left, when Players often play better for there new teams ( Woody, Peppers, Reggie White, I could go on and on)

[YoHoChecko]

What we're saying is that a GM's job is to predict the future. It's always going to be full of intuition, guesswork, evidence, evaluation, and plenty of mistakes.

What we are saying is that these were mistakes. HaHa always was mediocre at best; you know I've sung that tune since before he was drafted. He has not had any success anywhere he's been for the past 4 years. Hayward was injured all during his sophomore seasona nd there was reason to wonder if he was just not going to be the same guy. But they clearly mis-used or mis-evaluated him, because he's been very good.

Hyde was used at CB for us and played much better at FS when he went to Buffalo. Randall was used at CB for us and played better at FS when he went to Cleveland (not very well, mind you, but better).

All of this "at the time" discussion is fine for giving a guy leeway to make decisions and acknowledge that mistakes get made routinely. But that said, it does NOTHING to change the FACT that letting Hayward and Hyde walk to stick with Randall, Rollins, and HaHa ended very poorly for us. A judgement was made, and it was the incorrect judgement. It happens all the time. I'm not saying I would have known better at the time. I'm just saying we all know better now.

[Yoop]

What we're saying is that a GM's job is to predict the future. It's always going to be full of intuition, guesswork, evidence, evaluation, and plenty of mistakes.

What we are saying is that these were mistakes. HaHa always was mediocre at best; you know I've sung that tune since before he was drafted. He has not had any success anywhere he's been for the past 4 years. Hayward was injured all during his sophomore seasona nd there was reason to wonder if he was just not going to be the same guy. But they clearly mis-used or mis-evaluated him, because he's been very good.

Hyde was used at CB for us and played much better at FS when he went to Buffalo. Randall was used at CB for us and played better at FS when he went to Cleveland (not very well, mind you, but better).

All of this "at the time" discussion is fine for giving a guy leeway to make decisions and acknowledge that mistakes get made routinely. But that said, it does NOTHING to change the FACT that letting Hayward and Hyde walk to stick with Randall, Rollins, and HaHa ended very poorly for us. A judgement was made, and it was the incorrect judgement. It happens all the time. I'm not saying I would have known better at the time. I'm just saying we all know better now.

the point is a GM has to go by past performance, and neither of Hayward or Hyde played well enough for Ted to keep them over drafting what he thought would be better players, and as I've shown Randal was a solid players his first couple years just as Dix was, I know you hated Dix right from the start, point is he was better then Hyde when Hyde played for us, the stats prove it.