From Lambeau to Lombardi, Holmgren, McCarthy and LaFleur and from Starr to Favre, Rodgers and now Jordan Love we’re talking Super Bowl Champion Green Bay Packers football. This Packers Forum is the place to talk NFL football and everything Packers. So, pull up a keyboard, make yourself at home and let’s talk some Packers football.
Did he fail, though? I thought he kind of flashed early, but hit a bout of injuries. That whole position change thing was a curious case with him. I am not entirely convinced it was done out of necessity because he couldn't play DT. Neal was really the first in a long line of players we drafted who we just didn't know what to do with. Then, to make matters worse, they doubled-down a few years later and took another guy who didn't have a clear position in Dom's defense.
Neal was a work out junkie, but who just didn't play stout enough at DT or even DE, I thought we tried him as a 5 tech to, point is he was 1 of the what ?????? 5 or 6, maybe 7 DL that Ted missed on, it's why I say I hate taking DL late round 1, and please don't mention Clark again,
Ted selected 4 DL in the first round. 2 were great. 2 were not great.
Mike Neal and Worthy were 2nd rounders. Both failed.
Thornton and Adams were 3rd rounders. Both failed.
I always liked MN's approach. They draft volume on Day 3 similar to how we draft volume for the Oline on day 3. I wish we did that more on the Dline. All we really need to do is just hit on one more Dlineman and we are good to go.
good point, the average hit rate with DL is around 50%, so the more you take, the higher the odds are of eventually finding a keeper, and that process has worked pretty well with our OL.
I've always supported Ted when he took a shot on a guy like Worthy or Neal, not to would be neglecting a position of great importance, just because i hate taking a chance on late first and 2nd rounders doesn't mean I don't understand why he did it, and like a lot of GM's, misses tend to out number hits at that position, it's the nature of things.
I maintain that the run defense was more of a scheme problem than a personnel problem.
Yes, no, maybe, sort of, probably.
If you don't have the personnel to run the scheme you want, you run the scheme that your personnel can deliver.
In some ways, I think Pettine's light boxes/run defense were a function of not having better DL rotation to use - so it really wasn't his first choice.
I've read elsewhere comments about "poor run fits" and "gap integrity" - so I'm not absolving Pettine of all responsibility here - but his hands were tied a bit...same as most DCs.
The other part about the run defense is situational- the 2020 Packers offense was # 1 in the entire league and even more importantly- they were a top -scoring first half offense. What that means to the DC is that the only way your opponent can keep up or close the gap is by throwing the ball- so letting a team run on you while preventing deep shots/quick scores is a defensible strategy. Protecting against deep shots often equals 2 deep safeties, an easier alignment to run against. So "letting" teams run eats the clock, prevents shot plays and helps the Packers win the games.
Lots of moving parts here (same as most football discussions) and I genuinely appreciate all your football insight around here
"But one name really flying under the radar, and he has for much of his career, is safety Adrian Amos, who is coming off a fantastic 2020 season and is signed through the 2022 season.
By PFF’s grading system, Amos had the second-highest overall grade among safeties and ranked first among safeties in coverage by that same metric. He allowed only 7.9 yards per catch when targeted, came away with three interceptions along with seven pass breakups, and allowed a passer rating of just 79.0.
Amos would also tally three pressures, two of which were sacks, and 26 stops—or plays that constitute a “loss” for the offense.
He was on the field for over 1,100 snaps last season, which included 387 in the box, where again, he was PFF’s top-graded safety, 590 as the free safety, and 108 from the slot—showing off that versatility. Amos has shown that he’s more than capable in coverage, a willing run defender, and able to make plays near the line of scrimmage."
I maintain that the run defense was more of a scheme problem than a personnel problem.
Yes, no, maybe, sort of, probably.
If you don't have the personnel to run the scheme you want, you run the scheme that your personnel can deliver.
In some ways, I think Pettine's light boxes/run defense were a function of not having better DL rotation to use - so it really wasn't his first choice.
I've read elsewhere comments about "poor run fits" and "gap integrity" - so I'm not absolving Pettine of all responsibility here - but his hands were tied a bit...same as most DCs.
The other part about the run defense is situational- the 2020 Packers offense was # 1 in the entire league and even more importantly- they were a top -scoring first half offense. What that means to the DC is that the only way your opponent can keep up or close the gap is by throwing the ball- so letting a team run on you while preventing deep shots/quick scores is a defensible strategy. Protecting against deep shots often equals 2 deep safeties, an easier alignment to run against. So "letting" teams run eats the clock, prevents shot plays and helps the Packers win the games.
Lots of moving parts here (same as most football discussions) and I genuinely appreciate all your football insight around here
So the reason I object to this is because we’re taking front seven players off the field to get Will Redmond on the field. We didn’t have the personnel to run dime, either. It was a choice.
But I do like the rest. Top offenses often face opponents whose offense will take more risks, putting more pressure on defenses.
So the reason I object to this is because we’re taking front seven players off the field to get Will Redmond on the field. We didn’t have the personnel to run dime, either. It was a choice.
It was a choice, but unfortunately - it often comes down to plugging your nose and taking the lesser of 2 evils.
You're going to die either way, so how do you wish to die ? In my post above, I elucidated the reasons why you might choose to focus on stopping the pass instead of focusing on the run game. If those reasons are valid, then you'd choose Will Redmond over the other not-exciting options.
Tyler Lancaster
Montravious Adams
Ty Summers
Will Redmond
Keke, Barnes, Martin all missed time to injury but could have offered better front 7 choices vs Will Redmond IF you were worried about the run.
Of course, the Packers didn't think much of the choices Pettine made - hence his departure. But we can also see that GB invested in having better choices at ILB, DT, CB - so that's part of the picture too.
Barry should have more to work with in terms of a better 3-Tech in developing Keke and K. Clark at 3-Tech on occasion as well. Slaton could be an upgrade over Lancaster in terms of playing 1-Tech snaps and handling double teams. So with those, plus the addition of FA Campbell- it suggests GB front office felt it was both a scheme and a personnel issue.
.
I’m not sure that adding a fifth round DT, a 6th round ILB, and a still on the street $2 million ILB is a lot of indication that they’re investing in those positions.
I’m not sure that adding a fifth round DT, a 6th round ILB, and a still on the street $2 million ILB is a lot of indication that they’re investing in those positions.
I would agree except it is often our strategy with Oline. We usually ensure we have 3 spots covered and then draft the hell out of Day 3 to fill the Spots 4 - 7 and it has been pretty successful.
ESPN/PFF ranked the rosters based on PFF data (2020 grades, plus some career grades and projections, it sounds like)
The Packers came in 6th
Biggest strength: Jaire Alexander and Adrian Amos form one of the league's best defensive back duos. Alexander's impact is easier to see: He allowed just 51% of the passes into his coverage to be completed last season, and those receptions went for fewer than 10 yards on average. Amos doesn't get as much of the national spotlight. That may be because he hasn't made a ton of splash plays, but Amos also rarely gets beaten for big plays. His 91.9 PFF grade since 2017 ranks second among all qualifying safeties.
Biggest weakness: For as good as some of the high-end talent is on Green Bay's defense, there still are clear weak points for opposing offenses to attack. The second outside cornerback spot is one of them. Kevin King is coming off a 2020 season in which he earned a coverage grade below 50.0 and allowed a passer rating of 105.8 on throws into his coverage. First-round rookie Eric Stokes is the only real competition for King at that spot, and there may be an adjustment period for Stokes in the NFL, given the difference in how illegal contact is enforced from college to the pros.
X factor for 2021: This has to be Aaron Rodgers, right? The future Hall of Famer is coming off the highest-graded season of his career and well-deserved MVP honors in 2020. The Packers' Super Bowl aspirations all hinge on whether Rodgers can have similar success under center this year, but Green Bay can't even guarantee Rodgers will suit up for the team this season, let alone play to the level of his 2020 campaign.
image.png (71.97 KiB) Viewed 547 times
Ranked ahead of us were:
1 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Biggest strength: Tom Brady only had one wide receiver or tight end clear a 70.0 receiving grade in his final season with New England in 2019, and Julian Edelman (72.4) barely met the threshold. But in 2020, Tampa Bay had six different wide receivers and tight ends record at least a 75.0 receiving grade, including O.J. Howard in limited action. It's one of the deepest receiving corps in the NFL, extending beyond those six to include promising young players such as Scotty Miller, Tyler Johnson and rookie Jaelon Darden.
Biggest weakness: Running back Leonard Fournette's stretch of success last postseason doesn't change the fact that 19.1% of his carries have gone for first downs or touchdowns since entering the NFL (third lowest among 30 running backs with 500-plus attempts). Ronald Jones II was an effective runner last season (84.7 rushing grade), but he can't be relied upon on passing downs. Jones tallied just 165 receiving yards on 41 targets in 2020. It's difficult to find a true weakness on this roster, but the running back position is the closest thing to it in the starting lineup.
X factor for 2021: Linebacker Devin White recorded an 83.5 coverage grade across his final five games of the 2020 season, three of which were playoff games. White also came up with 10 quarterback pressures and four sacks over that stretch. The next step in his development is to play at that level with more consistency, like his teammate Lavonte David has done for years. There's no denying that White's speed in the middle of Tampa Bay's defense can be a game-changer.
2021 Buccaneers
OFFENSE DEFENSE
QB Tom Brady (93.3) DI Ndamukong Suh (62.4)
RB Leonard Fournette (65.5) DI Vita Vea (89.9)
WR Mike Evans (74.9) DI William Gholston (61.6)
WR Chris Godwin (76.0) ED Shaquil Barrett (74.7)
WR Antonio Brown (82.2) ED Jason Pierre-Paul (66.3)
TE Rob Gronkowski (70.9) LB Lavonte David (78.8)
TE O.J. Howard (54.7*) LB Devin White (48.1)
LT Donovan Smith (72.8) CB Carlton Davis (65.7)
LG Ali Marpet (80.7) CB Jamel Dean (76.4)
C Ryan Jensen (63.6) CB Sean Murphy-Bunting (59.6)
RG Alex Cappa (67.7) S Antoine Winfield Jr. (67.2)
RT Tristan Wirfs (84.1) S Jordan Whitehead (70.0)
2. Kansas City Chiefs Biggest strength: The offensive trio of Patrick Mahomes, Travis Kelce and Tyreek Hill is the reason Kansas City is once again the betting favorite to bring home a Lombardi Trophy this season. According to PFF's wins above replacement metric, Mahomes has been the most valuable quarterback in the NFL over the past three seasons by more than a full win. Kelce comfortably ranks first at the tight end position, and Hill comes in at fourth among wide receivers. Throw in coach Andy Reid, one of the top offensive playcallers in the NFL, and the offense becomes nearly impossible to stop.
Biggest weakness: Defensive tackle Chris Jones is elite. He has earned pass-rushing grades of at least 90.0 in each of the past three seasons. Aaron Donald is the only other interior defensive lineman who can say the same. However, the rest of the defensive line doesn't bring nearly as much juice. Frank Clark's pass-rushing grade is 20 points lower over the past two seasons in Kansas City than it was across his final two seasons in Seattle. Clark profiling more as a below-average starter than the top-flight edge the Chiefs expected only accentuates the lack of difference-makers on the defensive line beyond Jones.
X factor for 2021: Kansas City reportedly showed interest in several free-agent wide receivers this offseason, including JuJu Smith-Schuster and Josh Reynolds. The Chiefs didn't land any of those bigger names at the position in free agency, opening the door for a larger role for third-year receiver Mecole Hardman in 2021. Hardman saw 20-plus more targets in 2020 than he did as a rookie, but he struggled to bring in all of those additional targets. Hardman's 13.7% drop rate was one of the highest marks at the position.
2021 Chiefs
OFFENSE DEFENSE
QB Patrick Mahomes (91.8) DI Chris Jones (90.3)
RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire (77.2) DI Jarran Reed (56.5)
RB Darrel Williams (65.3) ED Frank Clark (54.3)
WR Tyreek Hill (84.5) ED Taco Charlton (51.6*)
WR Mecole Hardman (68.3) LB Anthony Hitchens (49.7)
WR Demarcus Robinson (60.7) LB Willie Gay Jr. (68.1)
TE Travis Kelce (93.8) CB Charvarius Ward (64.3)
LT Orlando Brown Jr. (77.8) CB L'Jarius Sneed (68.4)
LG Joe Thuney (74.2) CB Rashad Fenton (70.0)
C Creed Humphrey (80.9**) S Tyrann Mathieu (67.0)
RG Laurent Duvernay-Tardif (59.7*) S Juan Thornhill (59.0)
RT Mike Remmers (71.3) S Daniel Sorensen (48.4)
3. Cleveland Browns Biggest strength: Cleveland's front office has done an excellent job of building up the offensive line, and offensive line coach Bill Callahan has molded it into one of the league's best. Joel Bitonio, JC Tretter, Wyatt Teller and Jack Conklin were all among the top-two-graded players at their respective positions in 2020. Left tackle Jedrick Wills Jr. is the lone player not on that list, but he still delivered an impressive performance in pass protection for a rookie. His 3.7% pressure rate allowed was a top-10 mark at the left tackle position.
Biggest weakness: Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods has previously discussed running a dime "base defense" in Cleveland. The Browns now have the personnel to do so with the additions to their secondary this offseason. That should reduce the number of linebackers on the field at any given time, but off-ball linebacker remains the biggest weakness of this defense on paper. Anthony Walker is the favorite to start at middle linebacker after coming off a 45.5 overall grade with Indianapolis last season.
X factor for 2021: The Browns have been unable to make the Baker Mayfield-to-Odell Beckham Jr. connection work through its first two years. Mayfield has a passer rating of just 72.4 when targeting Beckham over those two seasons. That number jumps to 89.9 when targeting any other player since 2019. Theoretically, the return of an elite talent at wide receiver from injury this season should elevate this offense. But 2021 may be the last season for Mayfield, OBJ and coach Kevin Stefanski to figure things out.
2021 Browns
OFFENSE DEFENSE
QB Baker Mayfield (85.7) DI Andrew Billings (69.3*)
RB Nick Chubb (88.3) DI Malik Jackson (64.7)
RB Kareem Hunt (74.4) ED Myles Garrett (86.5)
WR Odell Beckham Jr. (75.3) ED Jadeveon Clowney (74.9)
WR Jarvis Landry (84.7) LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah (79.7**)
WR Rashard Higgins (73.4) LB Anthony Walker (45.5)
TE Austin Hooper (69.8) CB Denzel Ward (70.5)
LT Jedrick Wills Jr. (62.6) CB Greg Newsome II (79.8**)
LG Joel Bitonio (85.5) CB Troy Hill (69.9)
C JC Tretter (81.0) S John Johnson III (85.3)
RG Wyatt Teller (92.3) S Ronnie Harrison Jr. (76.6)
RT Jack Conklin (84.0) S Grant Delpit (66.3***)
4. Buffalo Bills Biggest strength: Josh Allen showed last season that he could go toe-to-toe with any quarterback in the NFL. The first-round pick out of Wyoming in 2018 took a massive third-year leap, improving from 28th at the position in PFF grade across the first two years of his career (65.3) to seventh last season (90.3). And Allen's improved accuracy gives reason to believe that his 2020 season was no fluke. His 16.5% uncatchable pass rate was a top-five mark among QBs last season.
Biggest weakness: Buffalo did not run the ball or defend the run well in 2020. Their interior offensive and defensive lines were the biggest reasons why, and the Bills didn't make any major additions to either group this offseason. Buffalo will hope that Cody Ford returning from injury (56.7 run-blocking grade last season) and Star Lotulelei returning from opt-out (61.5 run-defense grade in 2019) can bolster their respective units.
X factor for 2021: Dane Jackson, a seventh-round selection last offseason, will have an opportunity to win the starting cornerback job opposite Tre'Davious White. He appeared in four games for Buffalo as a rookie in 2020, recording four pass breakups and an interception on fewer than 20 passes thrown into his coverage. Jackson's coaches and teammates have spoken positively about his play through the early stages of this offseason, and he could play his way into a starting role for Buffalo this season.
2021 Bills
OFFENSE DEFENSE
QB Josh Allen (90.3) DI Ed Oliver (45.8)
RB Zack Moss (73.0) DI Star Lotulelei (58.6*)
RB Devin Singletary (66.0) ED Jerry Hughes (75.6)
WR Stefon Diggs (90.2) ED Mario Addison (59.5)
WR Cole Beasley (81.7) LB Tremaine Edmunds (41.2)
WR Emmanuel Sanders (74.4) LB Matt Milano (55.6)
TE Dawson Knox (61.3) LB A.J. Klein (46.4)
LT Dion Dawkins (80.6) CB Tre'Davious White (68.5)
LG Cody Ford (53.8) CB Levi Wallace (68.3)
C Mitch Morse (63.3) CB Taron Johnson (61.5)
RG Jon Feliciano (64.8) S Micah Hyde (70.3)
RT Daryl Williams (79.2) S Jordan Poyer (71.3)
5. Baltimore Ravens Biggest strength: There aren't many cornerbacks in the league who can seamlessly transition from an outside role to the slot and provide high-level play at both spots. Marlon Humphrey has done that better than anyone in recent years, spending more time inside due to a string of Tavon Young injuries. Humphrey is the only cornerback in the league with a PFF coverage grade of at least 80.0 both in the slot and out wide since 2017.
Biggest weakness: It's not difficult to see the reasoning behind Baltimore's decision to let Matt Judon and Yannick Ngakoue walk in free agency. Defensive coordinator Wink Martindale does as good of a job as anyone at scheming up pressure with the blitz, reducing the need for elite edge rushers. But those departures do leave the Ravens thin at outside linebacker entering this season. Since Tyus Bowser was drafted in 2017, neither he nor Pernell McPhee have recorded 40 pressures in a season. Those are now Baltimore's two projected starters.
X factor for 2021: Rookie wide receiver Rashod Bateman isn't listed above with the projected starters because of how often both Mark Andrews and Nick Boyle figure to be on the field, but he should factor heavily into the Ravens' offense. Bateman showed that he could win from primarily wide alignments (2019) and in the slot (2020) by earning grades north of 80.0 in each of the last two seasons at Minnesota. Bateman joined DeVonta Smith and new teammate Tylan Wallace as the only wide receivers in this draft class to average over 3.0 yards per route run in both 2019 and 2020.
2021 Ravens
OFFENSE DEFENSE
QB Lamar Jackson (79.3) DI Calais Campbell (74.7)
RB J.K. Dobbins (72.0) DI Brandon Williams (70.3)
RB Gus Edwards (85.5) DI Derek Wolfe (68.2)
WR Marquise Brown (74.6) ED Tyus Bowser (68.3)
WR Sammy Watkins (64.5) ED Pernell McPhee (72.4)
TE Mark Andrews (76.5) LB Patrick Queen (29.7)
TE Nick Boyle (70.6) LB L.J. Fort (71.5)
LT Ronnie Stanley (79.9) CB Marlon Humphrey (76.4)
LG Ben Cleveland (78.8**) CB Marcus Peters (67.2)
C Bradley Bozeman (63.6) CB Tavon Young (62.7*)
RG Kevin Zeitler (65.9) S Chuck Clark (69.8)
RT Alejandro Villanueva (74.9) S DeShon Elliott (69.6)
thanks for the article Yoho even though I think it shows ESPN/PFF bias, Savage was rated as a top 4 safety from mid season on, Jenkins was one of the best LG's in the game, and A Jones delivered 1500 yrds of Offense, KeKe totaled barely 20 tackles, Gary per snap count was our most productive pass rusher, just a couple grades that make little sense.
Elgton Jenkins casually being a bad player on this list.
Maybe one day he can be as good as Kamal Martin (one could hope)
66 isn't bad, pretty average, but yes that grade is all kinds of BS.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
"The Packers have come up in every team post we have had so far and not only did they reach the red zone at an extremely high rate, but they also cashed those trips in for touchdowns at a bonkers rate. Their 76.8% red zone conversion rate led the league and was the second-best mark in red zone efficiency of the 2000s behind the 2019 Titans."
"With back-to-back seasons of 13-3, his 26-6 record equates to a .813 winning percentage. That is the highest winning percentage among all coaches with at least 25 games in NFL history."
To be sure, having Aaron Rodgers as his quarterback has helped. LaFleur would be the first to say it. But, it’s worth noting, the Rodgers who won MVP honors in 2020 isn’t the same as the Rodgers of 2019. In 2019, Rodgers ranked 21st in completion percentage, 17th in yards per attempt and 12th in passer rating – about the same as in 2018. In 2020, Rodgers ranked first in completion percentage, third in yards per attempt and first in passer rating. He went from a combined 51 touchdown passes in 2018 and 2019 to 48 in 2020.
LaFleur deserves at least some credit for the incredible improvement."
"With back-to-back seasons of 13-3, his 26-6 record equates to a .813 winning percentage. That is the highest winning percentage among all coaches with at least 25 games in NFL history."
To be sure, having Aaron Rodgers as his quarterback has helped. LaFleur would be the first to say it. But, it’s worth noting, the Rodgers who won MVP honors in 2020 isn’t the same as the Rodgers of 2019. In 2019, Rodgers ranked 21st in completion percentage, 17th in yards per attempt and 12th in passer rating – about the same as in 2018. In 2020, Rodgers ranked first in completion percentage, third in yards per attempt and first in passer rating. He went from a combined 51 touchdown passes in 2018 and 2019 to 48 in 2020.
LaFleur deserves at least some credit for the incredible improvement."
If it was just AR and otherwise superior roster carrying the team without much innovation needed from the coach, I'd dock some points from LaFleur, but his overhaul of scheme on O and the imaginative and effective utilization of his personnel have made him a coaching phenom in my eyes. And the jump from year 1 to 2 was big even tho the result was the same. And he achieved that jump in the weirdest year of my time watching the NFL. I certainly wanna see what he can cook up now, hopefully with AR.
And the jump from year 1 to 2 was big even tho the result was the same.
Not arguing, but emphasizing your point. The record was the same, the result was not. Of their 13 wins last year, only one was by less than 7 points and they had an OT loss and a 6-point loss to Minnesota. Obviously, the game in Tampa was the big blemish. In 2019, there were 4 wins that were by less than 7 points and the two big blowout losses. The team definitely took a step forward, especially given a 1st-place schedule in 2020.
again,
