Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2021

[YoHoChecko]

So play Hurts. They've barely given him a chance and there is no better solution at this point. Watson may, and I would say probably, won't play this year. And who knows for how long going forward. He's not a good answer for anyone right now.

Not that I care. Philly can continue to screw themselves over and over. I have 0 love for any Philly teams.

I don't want Philly to trade for Watson so that if they give up on Hurts after this year, they can become a prime player for Rodgers next year with their 2-3 first round draft picks.

[NCF]

So play Hurts. They've barely given him a chance and there is no better solution at this point. Watson may, and I would say probably, won't play this year. And who knows for how long going forward. He's not a good answer for anyone right now.

Not that I care. Philly can continue to screw themselves over and over. I have 0 love for any Philly teams.

I don't want Philly to trade for Watson so that if they give up on Hurts after this year, they can become a prime player for Rodgers next year with their 2-3 first round draft picks.

Packers play on the road in Philly in 2022. That makes it a bit tougher, but embrace that &%$@. I understand trading him outside the division, but no need to avoid a battle.

[NCF]

So play Hurts. They've barely given him a chance and there is no better solution at this point. Watson may, and I would say probably, won't play this year. And who knows for how long going forward. He's not a good answer for anyone right now.

Not that I care. Philly can continue to screw themselves over and over. I have 0 love for any Philly teams.

I don't want Philly to trade for Watson so that if they give up on Hurts after this year, they can become a prime player for Rodgers next year with their 2-3 first round draft picks.

I just want a good, old-fashioned bidding war.

[YoHoChecko]

I just want a good, old-fashioned bidding war.

Yes, whether Rodgers LANDS on the Eagles or not. A team with multiple firsts in 2022 being involved in the discussions benefits us. If they trade those picks for Watson, that's dead. If Wentz recovers in time to play 70% of the Colts' snaps and the Colts make the playoffs (or 75% and they don't), the Eagles get the Colts' first rouner, as well. They already have Miami's and their own. Though Miami has San Francisco's.

Anyway, the Eagles COULD be sitting there with three first-round picks in 2022 looking for a QB if they stick with Hurts and he's mediocre or below. And that would be stellar for us, unless Rodgers publicly says that Philly is a mess and he's out. But Jalen Hurts, Davonta Smith, Dallas Goedert is a nice little group of young weapons.

[BSA]

Rodgers has a say in where he goes, so its unlikely to be a typical bidding war.
Fair guess Philly is not on his list of preferred destinations -> after all, its not on anybody's list of preferred destinations

[Yoop]

now posters pay attention to QB pressures as much as they do sacks, imo that makes more sense to me, I think most fans only see the success of a sack, and fail to notice the pressures, and while a sack is finite, the accumulations of constant pressures forces more turn overs and QB mistakes.

Love this; it's just really difficult to have consistent access to those numbers. If they were listed on the regular stat sites instead of usually behind paywalls and released ion tidbits and occasional lists, we'd all pay attention to pressures. But because those numbers are safeguarded in a way that official NFL stats never have been, we focus on the numbers that are made widely available

Pressure statistics have a level of subjectivity to it.

QB hits/knockdowns and sacks are objective stats and easy calculate and track.

QB pressures though...definitely more wiggle room. It's why it's likely not as available. It takes resources to count and disagreement on the count.

So I agree. Though it's nice to stand on the high ground and say, "I don't care about sacks I care about pressures. I am a more sophisticated fan..."

It's understanding the challenge of the pressure stat to begin with.

haha, hey I've been bringing up pressures for eons when most posters acted as though sacks where the only thing, I remember saying if Gary got 60 pressures I'd be happy, and most here acted as though I was nuts to demand so much from him, 6 months later Z had 90 plus pressures and led the league in that stat, months back I showed this Pitts stats where the team had about 240 pressures which was the best since 06.

sorry to blow my own horn here a little, but it's because I got so much flack over the years for supporting pressures over sack totals. high ground

[Yoop]

Rodgers has a say in where he goes, so its unlikely to be a typical bidding war.
Fair guess Philly is not on his list of preferred destinations -> after all, its not on anybody's list of preferred destinations

Amen to that

[go pak go]

Love this; it's just really difficult to have consistent access to those numbers. If they were listed on the regular stat sites instead of usually behind paywalls and released ion tidbits and occasional lists, we'd all pay attention to pressures. But because those numbers are safeguarded in a way that official NFL stats never have been, we focus on the numbers that are made widely available

Pressure statistics have a level of subjectivity to it.

QB hits/knockdowns and sacks are objective stats and easy calculate and track.

QB pressures though...definitely more wiggle room. It's why it's likely not as available. It takes resources to count and disagreement on the count.

So I agree. Though it's nice to stand on the high ground and say, "I don't care about sacks I care about pressures. I am a more sophisticated fan..."

It's understanding the challenge of the pressure stat to begin with.

sorry to blow my own horn here a little, but it's because I got so much flack over the years for supporting pressures over sack totals. high ground

Oh I don't believe that is why you got flack.

[APB]

Love this; it's just really difficult to have consistent access to those numbers. If they were listed on the regular stat sites instead of usually behind paywalls and released ion tidbits and occasional lists, we'd all pay attention to pressures. But because those numbers are safeguarded in a way that official NFL stats never have been, we focus on the numbers that are made widely available

Pressure statistics have a level of subjectivity to it.

QB hits/knockdowns and sacks are objective stats and easy calculate and track.

QB pressures though...definitely more wiggle room. It's why it's likely not as available. It takes resources to count and disagreement on the count.

So I agree. Though it's nice to stand on the high ground and say, "I don't care about sacks I care about pressures. I am a more sophisticated fan..."

It's understanding the challenge of the pressure stat to begin with.

haha, hey I've been bringing up pressures for eons when most posters acted as though sacks where the only thing, I remember saying if Gary got 60 pressures I'd be happy, and most here acted as though I was nuts to demand so much from him, 6 months later Z had 90 plus pressures and led the league in that stat, months back I showed this Pitts stats where the team had about 240 pressures which was the best since 06.

sorry to blow my own horn here a little, but it's because I got so much flack over the years for supporting pressures over sack totals. high ground

I don't recall anybody saying you were nuts or even that you were the only one focusing on pressures. I do recall you obsessing over pressures specifically- and that on limited information - and other posters taking pressures as just another stat in assessing a player.

Really no need to play this up. I think we've all accepted pressures as a tool in assessing quality rushers. Just as most feel the ability to close the deal on a pressure and get the QB on the ground is an even better quality.

[go pak go]

Pressure statistics have a level of subjectivity to it.

QB hits/knockdowns and sacks are objective stats and easy calculate and track.

QB pressures though...definitely more wiggle room. It's why it's likely not as available. It takes resources to count and disagreement on the count.

So I agree. Though it's nice to stand on the high ground and say, "I don't care about sacks I care about pressures. I am a more sophisticated fan..."

It's understanding the challenge of the pressure stat to begin with.

haha, hey I've been bringing up pressures for eons when most posters acted as though sacks where the only thing, I remember saying if Gary got 60 pressures I'd be happy, and most here acted as though I was nuts to demand so much from him, 6 months later Z had 90 plus pressures and led the league in that stat, months back I showed this Pitts stats where the team had about 240 pressures which was the best since 06.

sorry to blow my own horn here a little, but it's because I got so much flack over the years for supporting pressures over sack totals. high ground

I don't recall anybody saying you were nuts or even that you were the only one focusing on pressures. I do recall you obsessing over pressures specifically- and that on limited information - and other posters taking pressures as just another stat in assessing a player.

Really no need to play this up. I think we've all accepted pressures as a tool in assessing quality rushers. Just as most feel the ability to close the deal on a pressure and get the QB on the ground is an even better quality.

I do recall the expectation was double digit sack requirement for all 3 individually and 50+ sacks combined between the 3 in 2019 or it was a failure.

I also remember going through 2019 and laughing my butt off because the Smiths were SO GOOD they were actually on pace for the expectations.

But yes I agree. Pressures are important. But actually making a play is also really, really important. Like it's great that Preston Smith was sooooooo close to sacking Brady on his completed bombs. Yay. Go Preston.

But the result was the Bucs completed the necessary passes to go onto the SB.

[Yoop]

I don't remember anyone even discussing cumulatives, sacks, hits and hurries 5 years ago, I didn't either till PFF and other data sights started publishing and reporting the data, now ya can't find it unless you pay for it, but hits and Hurries cause turn overs, and broken plays.

look how great we all thought our pass rush was in 019, and how it had dropped off in 020, well what declined was the hits and hurries cause the total team sacks remained the same at 41.

I expected the same production at least that we got from Mathews as a rookie and also a 2nd year player, not to much to expect given draft slotting, why not, a lot of edge rushers produce double digit sacks and 50 pressures as rookies taken as high as Gary, hell he should have been given a lot more snaps last year.

I couldn't find total pressure counts, there out there, but I'd bet we had about half the total team pass pressures in 2020 as we had in 2019, so they do make a difference.

[BF004]

a lot of edge rushers produce double digit sacks and 50 pressures as rookies

No they do not, this has been told to you so many times and shown with facts and figures. Probably mostly back on the old forum if you are curious in seeing what the accurate numbers were.

Last years rookie of the year had 7.5 sacks and 40 pressures and Chase Young was very very good by all accounts for a rookie.

[Yoop]

OK, so 10 sacks and 50 pressures was a little high, but rookies do achieve those marks, or close to it, and Gary because of the Smith bros, didn't get to show case his ability, my biggest complaint with the selection of Gary was that we had bigger needs else where.

almost every year the top rated edge rushing rookies produce a hurry roughly every 15 snaps, which amounts to high 40 or 50 total pressures for 16 games.

EDGE NICK BOSA, SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS
You just don’t see rookies edge defenders come into the NFL and have the kind of impact that Bosa has this season, and it’s why he was named PFF’s Defensive Rookie of the Year. His 80 total pressures as a rookie were 14 more than any rookie edge defender has recorded in a single season since the start of the PFF era back in 2006. The havoc that he created in opposing backfields all year landed him an 86.7 overall grade that was nearly identical to the 86.6 overall grade posted by his brother, Joey Bosa, back in his rookie season of 2016. The Bosa brothers have some work to do to rival J.J. Watt and T.J. Watt, but Nick’s stellar debut has them on their way.

EDGE JOSH ALLEN, JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS
Outside of Bosa, Allen holds the highest pass-rushing grade of any rookie edge defender at 70.2. Allen also ranks second to Bosa in total pressures (49), pressure rate (13.7%) and pass-rush win rate (15.7%), making him an easy choice for the second edge slot on the PFF All-Rookie Team. When Allen has gotten to the quarterback, he has made the most of it. Of his 49 pressures, 26 were either sacks or quarterback hits. That mark is tied for eighth at the position with Chandler Jones and Danielle Hunter.

2009 (Rookie Season): Matthews recorded 51 tackles, 10.0 sacks, 7 pass deflections, a forced fumble, and 3 fumble recoveries in his rookie season of 2009. He played in all 16 games, starting at ROLB in 13 of them. He led the Packers in QB Pressures, with 45.5. He finished 3rd for NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year, losing to his former USC teammate Brian Cushing. He was named NFC Defensive Rookie of the Year and set the Packers record for most sacks in a season by rookie (10.0). Matthews was named to the Pro-Bowl, being the first Packer rookie to be named to the Pro-Bowl since James Lofton in 1978.

yes my expectations where high, didn't expect Gary to surpass any of these players, however I did expect more production from a player we selected at slot 12.

[go pak go]

yes my expectations where high, didn't expect Gary to surpass any of these players, however I did expect more production from a player we selected at slot 12.

And if you continue to hold onto that narrative that the draft's primary variable in being selected earlier = playing and impacting sooner than those picked later...you will continue to be pissed off at most of the Packers 1st round picks for the rest of your life.

Because that is just simply not how the Packers view the draft.

[Labrev]

I also love how 12th Overall is arbitrarily deemed to be [elite player territory] just because the Packers have not had a pick that high since Raji (a DL whose rookie stat line was 15 solo tackles & 1 sack, and we "already had" DL suited for the new 3-4 Capers scheme in Ryan Pickett, Johnny Jolly, etc).

Some draft classes do not even have 3 players who will be scheme-irrelevant elite like Nick Bosa, and those players are snatched up way ahead of 12th overall (and whose production is not the norm for rookies even by that PFF blurb's admission). 12th is mid-, not high-first.

[paco]

[salmar80]

Signing bonus' cap hit can only be spread through 5 years from date of signing, and other guarantees are likely guaranteed early year roster bonuses (that are already mostly covered by the signing bonus), so there's a whole lotta fluff in this thing.

My educated guess: Pretty much like our AR deals. Ties the franchise to the QB at the hip for 3 years with no options if the QB gets injured or lazy. Hence title "franchise QB". The team is truly stuck with him for this period. If anything bad happens, it's kiss success and jobs goodbye time.

After season 3, it's decreasing amounts of cap pain to move on. But at that point the team has weathered the biggest risk, so the QB has less leverage.

[Yoop]

yes my expectations where high, didn't expect Gary to surpass any of these players, however I did expect more production from a player we selected at slot 12.

And if you continue to hold onto that narrative that the draft's primary variable in being selected earlier = playing and impacting sooner than those picked later...you will continue to be pissed off at most of the Packers 1st round picks for the rest of your life.

Because that is just simply not how the Packers view the draft.

come on, you can't be serious, that is exactly why some players are rated higher then others, readiness to play at NFL level, and it is how the GM's have used there first picks ever since Wolf became the GM 30 years ago, almost every year our top pick is dedicated to filling a weak position and almost all have started at some point of there rookie season, just Lately we have Alexander, Savage, and that could have been the same with Gary cept he couldn't beat out the 100 plus mil. Smith Bros. as I've said a doz times, Gary the player isn't what pissed me off, it's using that pick on a position we had already fixed.


look at the post Paco brought showing 2nd contracts, big money, thats why you want them to produce fast on there rookie contract cause you might not be able to afford to pay them the second time around.

so lets say that Gary does well this year, and even next, that would be 2 good to great years out of 4, then he'll possibly want so much we can't sign him, imo that amounts to minimal value from from a very high draft pick.

[Yoop]

I also love how 12th Overall is arbitrarily deemed to be [elite player territory] just because the Packers have not had a pick that high since Raji (a DL whose rookie stat line was 15 solo tackles & 1 sack, and we "already had" DL suited for the new 3-4 Capers scheme in Ryan Pickett, Johnny Jolly, etc).

Some draft classes do not even have 3 players who will be scheme-irrelevant elite like Nick Bosa, and those players are snatched up way ahead of 12th overall (and whose production is not the norm for rookies even by that PFF blurb's admission). 12th is mid-, not high-first.

big diff starting at DT as a rookie compared to edge rusher, and Raji was taken to be our NT and replace Pickett, really a tough nut to crack for a Rookie, heck go and look up how many DT's start and do well as a rookie, it's a short list.

also tier one players often go past top 10, and often half the players selected round one start, if not game one then at some point during the season.( low ball guess, it's probably 2/3rds)

I don't know where people get the idea thats not true, but it is, I think it's made up simply to defend our GM's when they blunder.

it's one thing to say we picked BPA, but what good is that if they sit as a backup for 2 or 3 years, that is a waste of resources.

[Labrev]

it's one thing to say we picked BPA, but what good is that if they sit as a backup for 2 or 3 years, that is a waste of resources.

Yeah, what a waste of a 1st round pick that Rodgers guy was. What good is HOF production if we have to wait three seasons for it?!