Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2021

[go pak go]

I'm just really excited for Gary this year. Also nervous too to be honest. He has been dominating practice but he did that last year. He needs to finally get results this year. I would say the famous yoop patened "double digit sack and 70+ pressures" is a good benchmark. Basically take his last season production and double it.

then you say this and act as though Gary hasn't deserved to start till now, P. Smith should have been unloaded prior to last season, and since this FO was so sold on Gary prior to the draft then why even bring P. Smith aboard.

ya I like most of what Guty has done to, liked most of what Ted did early on as well, where you and I differ is that I don't agree with EVERYTHING either did and I voice it, and Gary and Love both might turn out great, but both cost big time resources and will sit long into there shelf life.

No. Where you and I differ is not that we don't disagree with Gute and Ted on things and voice it. Where you and I differ is I wait to make judgements on decisions before they can be adequately assessed.

I have no issues voicing judgement when we have enough information to condemn a decision.

[Yoop]

I'm just really excited for Gary this year. Also nervous too to be honest. He has been dominating practice but he did that last year. He needs to finally get results this year. I would say the famous yoop patened "double digit sack and 70+ pressures" is a good benchmark. Basically take his last season production and double it.

then you say this and act as though Gary hasn't deserved to start till now, P. Smith should have been unloaded prior to last season, and since this FO was so sold on Gary prior to the draft then why even bring P. Smith aboard.

ya I like most of what Guty has done to, liked most of what Ted did early on as well, where you and I differ is that I don't agree with EVERYTHING either did and I voice it, and Gary and Love both might turn out great, but both cost big time resources and will sit long into there shelf life.

No. Where you and I differ is not that we don't disagree with Gute and Ted on things and voice it. Where you and I differ is I wait to make judgements on decisions before they can be adequately assessed.

I have no issues voicing judgement when we have enough information to condemn a decision.

obviously it's easier to grade a player after 3 years, but if that was the curriculum GM's went buy then they wouldn't ever last as a GM in the nfl, to think a GM expects to groom every draft pick for there first two years is insanity, impossible, and thats what makes the selection of Gary a poor choice of resources.

hopefully we get two great season from Gary before we have to pay out a boat load of money to keep him, if Guty had that happen with every high pick he'd never last out his first contract, your still defending the player, over slot selection, slot 12 usually is reserved for players that a GM hopes to start sometime year one, reality is impossible to fathom when all you do is protect the decision Guty made

[go pak go]

then you say this and act as though Gary hasn't deserved to start till now, P. Smith should have been unloaded prior to last season, and since this FO was so sold on Gary prior to the draft then why even bring P. Smith aboard.

ya I like most of what Guty has done to, liked most of what Ted did early on as well, where you and I differ is that I don't agree with EVERYTHING either did and I voice it, and Gary and Love both might turn out great, but both cost big time resources and will sit long into there shelf life.

No. Where you and I differ is not that we don't disagree with Gute and Ted on things and voice it. Where you and I differ is I wait to make judgements on decisions before they can be adequately assessed.

I have no issues voicing judgement when we have enough information to condemn a decision.

obviously it's easier to grade a player after 3 years, but if that was the curriculum GM's went buy then they wouldn't ever last as a GM in the nfl, to think a GM expects to groom every draft pick for there first two years is insanity, impossible, and thats what makes the selection of Gary a poor choice of resources.

But this is what I don't understand yoop.

You even admitted yourself this isn't the case. The Packers got starting production from Alexander, Jenkins, Savage, MVS (in 2018), this year it will be Josh Meyers and likely Stokes.

So Gute has produced 4 - 6 rookies who did in fact start their rookie season out of 4 drafts. That's averaging over 1 starter per draft. That's pretty darned good.

Like I said, the Packers in this last era has actually shown a healthy mix of getting immediate impact as well as grooming high end talent. If Gary and Savage don't take that next step this year and turn into a disappointment, I'm going to be on the criticism train.

And honestly, I strongly believe that's EXACTLY how a GM goes by in terms of draft value. They need to look at draft value for 3+ years.

I know it's an unpopular opinion because Packers fans love him...but BJ Raji looking backwards was a bad draft pick. He was a flash in the pan one year wonder who was just a guy outside of 2010 - he was basically a Tyler Lancaster. Fortunately for us that one year wonder collided at a great time and got us what we wanted. But he is a perfect example to me of "looking great right away" and then being completely irrelevant afterwards.

hopefully we get two great season from Gary before we have to pay out a boat load of money to keep him, if Guty had that happen with every high pick he'd never last out his first contract, your still defending the player, over slot selection, slot 12 usually is reserved for players that a GM hopes to start sometime year one, reality is impossible to fathom when all you do is protect the decision Guty made

Couple of things here.

1. If Gute kept drafting that high...I agree he'd never outlast his first contract. BECAUSE THE PACKERS KEPT DRAFTING HIGH WHICH MEANS GUTE SUCKS AT HIS JOB.

2. I am not defending Gary. I have not said he was a great draft pick. I can't believe how many times I have been saying if Gary doesn't produce this year I will start being on the criticism train. I am saying wait on Gary. The obsession of being "the first" to think something is foolishness. Just wait and let actual information allow to make an informed decision on Gary. Sometimes rookies come in and play great. Sometimes they don't.

You state yourself that 50% of players are busts. That includes slot 12. Right now we don't know if Gary is a great pick. Right now we don't know if Gary will be a bust. But we also know at least to this point he hasn't been labeled as a bust and we also have reason to be excited about the player based on his personality, his practice performance and production when given opportunities.

It's enough for me to be excited. And that's where I am at.

I think my whole point is essentially this:

It's okay to think the Gary pick was a bad pick based on your thoughts of the player. It's okay to be human and be a fan and have preliminary disagreements with a draft pick based on your own due diligence. I have no problem with that.

But where it crosses the line into being stupid is if Gary turns into a monster in 2021 and 2022 and leads onto a great career with the Packers but you hold onto the caveat, "yeah but it was a poor use of resource at slot 12 because he didn't play enough in 2019 and 2020". And that is from what I understand your greatest issue right now. He could turn great this year and you would still be upset because he didn't play soon enough. And that is what is madness.

It would have been a better use of immediate impact resources in 2005 to draft Heath Miller or Roddy White. They certainly would have been more valuable to us in January 2008 than the guy who was riding the pine on the bench. But I don't think anyone would suggest 16 years later that we made a bad draft pick that season. And it wouldn't matter if we picked him at #5, #24, #12, #1, #10, etc. The fact is it was a great pick. Period.

[Yoop]

I know it's an unpopular opinion because Packers fans love him...but BJ Raji looking backwards was a bad draft pick. He was a flash in the pan one year wonder who was just a guy outside of 2010 - he was basically a Tyler Lancaster. Fortunately for us that one year wonder collided at a great time and got us what we wanted. But he is a perfect example to me of "looking great right away" and then being completely irrelevant afterwards.

now your discussing a facet of a player that almost no one can predict and thats heart, Raji was loaded with talent, who knows exactly what happened with BJ, one thing that didn't was talent decline, I expect some of it was due to the 20 front 2 gap scheme which makes it difficult for a DL to show his true value, a single gap 30 front would have show cased Raji's ability better

we saw another player lose his willingness to do the stuff necessary to excel, Lacy, we gave him 20 touches as a rookie, saw that he could really do well, then lowered his touches each year after, he then gave up the weight room and decided to eat his way out of the league, it's important to keep the incentive as high as possible for high profile players, or they lose interest

neither where poor draft picks, we simply refused to max out there ability and they resented it, and gave up, that bone headed stuff was on us not the player.

and if you can't see that Savage has already arrived then I don't know what to tell you accept make a appointment with a eye doctor this is you again trying to say we shouldn't judge a player till after there third season, most people (and this includes YOU) can see whether a player is good or not much faster then that,

Gary was a futures pick, just like Love, it's understandable to do that sort of thing with a QB it's not wise to do so for almost any other position, specially so when the team is built to win NOW, and simply needs a little better production at several positions such as DL

also I've already made my prediction on Gary, and I think you have to, seriously if you could only have one between Preston and Gary who would you pick? come on now don't lie, again it was not the player that upset me with the Gary pick ( I new he'd probably be a good DE) it was using that slot on a position we'd already fixed when we still needed help at the DT position, at the TE position and certainly at WR.

and here you go again with we got a great player and thats all that matter BS.

But where it crosses the line into being stupid is if Gary turns into a monster in 2021 and 2022 and leads onto a great career with the Packers but you hold onto the caveat, "yeah but it was a poor use of resource at slot 12 because he didn't play enough in 2019 and 2020". And that is from what I understand your greatest issue right now. He could turn great this year and you would still be upset because he didn't play soon enough. And that is what is madness.

It would have been a better use of immediate impact resources in 2005 to draft Heath Miller or Roddy White. They certainly would have been more valuable to us in January 2008 than the guy who was riding the pine on the bench. But I don't think anyone would suggest 16 years later that we made a bad draft pick that season. And it wouldn't matter if we picked him at #5, #24, #12, #1, #10, etc. The fact is it was a great pick. Period.

first we took Rodgers because Bert threatened to retire for 3 years straight, he became a jerk every time Ted failed to bring in his personal choice of UFA's, Rodgers has never shown that, not ever, it was stupid to draft his replacement so long before he would actually retire., and we might get one year of service from him before we have to pay him huge bucks, thats if he even has a job here when that happens.

Gary is a whole different situation, he'll excel this year and next and then want 20 mil. plus to play his last season and any season after that, we wasted 2 cheap years of his rookie deal so Guty could save face for over paying P. Smith, thats so dumb.

you keep saying you want game tilters, all pro players, granted thats great, thing is they cost a lot, imho your better off with a bunch of almost PB players, very good starters, cause just maybe you'll be able to afford them on second contracts, and they also make game changing plays.

[go pak go]

you keep saying you want game tilters, all pro players, granted thats great, thing is they cost a lot, imho your better off with a bunch of almost PB players, very good starters, cause just maybe you'll be able to afford them on second contracts, and they also make game changing plays.

Your stuff on Brett Favre and Thompson/Rodgers iswrong. Rodgers was literally Ted's first selection. So Favre didn't have any time to be a $%@#. Ted was hired as GM January 2005. He picked Rodgers 3 months later. I also believe the whole Favre/retirement is way overblown.

The Packers themselves knew that Favre was likely going to play for a while. It's why they tried to trade back and out of the pick. Except nobody wanted to give good enough compensation. So the Packers then stuck to their board. The Rodgers pick was simply "sticking to their board" not a preparation for Favre retiring. Favre briefly talked about retirement in 2003 and 2004, but it wasn't very serious. The serious Favre/retirement conversations started to really happen in 2005 after he played terrible and looked terrible.

But the second thing you mentioned above is absolutely another way to build a team. You gotta be deep and have no weaknesses. Which also means having good players then who can step in case of injury. But I honestly don't believe that is how you want a team to be built in the slightest. You are all about star power and emotional attachment to players. Rodgers and Adams are field tilters. And you would do anything to keep them no matter the cost. So I just don't necessarily think you truly believe your own statement there.

Sounds to me you are more upset at the Preston Smith signing than you are the Rashan Gary selection. Maybe pivot your argument that way moving forward since that is what you seem to really hate.

You just hate Preston Smith.

[Yoop]

you keep saying you want game tilters, all pro players, granted thats great, thing is they cost a lot, imho your better off with a bunch of almost PB players, very good starters, cause just maybe you'll be able to afford them on second contracts, and they also make game changing plays.

Your stuff on Brett Favre and Thompson/Rodgers iswrong. Rodgers was literally Ted's first selection. So Favre didn't have any time to be a $%@#. Ted was hired as GM January 2005. He picked Rodgers 3 months later. I also believe the whole Favre/retirement is way overblown.

The Packers themselves knew that Favre was likely going to play for a while. It's why they tried to trade back and out of the pick. Except nobody wanted to give good enough compensation. So the Packers then stuck to their board. The Rodgers pick was simply "sticking to their board" not a preparation for Favre retiring. Favre briefly talked about retirement in 2003 and 2004, but it wasn't very serious. The serious Favre/retirement conversations started to really happen in 2005 after he played terrible and looked terrible.

But the second thing you mentioned above is absolutely another way to build a team. You gotta be deep and have no weaknesses. Which also means having good players then who can step in case of injury. Sounds to me you are more upset at the Preston Smith signing than you are the Rashan Gary selection. Maybe pivot your argument that way moving forward since that is what you seem to really hate.

You just hate Preston Smith.

your just down playing Favres continued talk of retirement almost every season from 03 on, Rodgers was rated as the best QB in draft class, when he dropped to our pick in the 20's it was a no brainer to take him, Guty moved up to take Love

you bet I'd take a well rounded team over having a few All pro's.

I'd do one or the other, not both, so if I'am signing both Smiths then I'am not picking Gary, if I only sign Z then ya I'd pick Gary, I thought I made that perfectly clear, and I don't hate P. Smith, actually think we kept him last year because Pettine needed a OLB with drop and cover skills, but I sure as heck wouldn't have brought him back this year, every time he is on the field is a snap that possibly Gary will be on the bench,, granted both Z and Gary will need some snaps off and P. is a good backup, but a very expensive one.

if you want a well stocked defense then the cost of guy's like P.Smith limit your ability to build one, we still need a play partner for Clark, and we are still building the ILB position on the cheap.

[salmar80]

I do understand Yoop when it comes to the draft. It would be great to get instant impact out of your prospects. Every year on the bench is waste of a cheap rookie contract.

Where we differ is that I don't believe you can always match draft position with filling needs with top talent that is also ready to play as rookies.

Gutey has sometimes been able to do that. The manouvering to get Jaire was superb GMing. Getting Savage, too, tho his rookie season was rough.

But sometimes good or even fair draft day trades may not be available. The other teams have their plans, too. Yoop seems to think you can trade at will. No. Just no. Draft doesn't happen in a green and gold vacuum. Sometimes teams will say no to your trade offers.

If we can't trade out of a pick to manouver to fill a need, I'd personally want us to pick the bestest talent. Not the most NFL -ready lesser talent.

Prospects differ in many ways, but one relevant one is NFL readiness, which comes with being in certain college programs that prep you for an NFL role (and being healthy and being a student of the game etc.). Another thing is talent. There are prospects with a higher ceiling who have gotten poorer coaching than many in those programs that do a good job at NFL prep. .

I think you win SBs by finding superstars, even if they're not all that a as rookies. If you just fill needs with lesser talent, over the years you'll end up with a worse roster.

[Yoop]

But sometimes good or even fair draft day trades may not be available. The other teams have their plans, too. Yoop seems to think you can trade at will. No. Just no. Draft doesn't happen in a green and gold vacuum. Sometimes teams will say no to your trade offers.

obviously it's not always possible to trade up, but you can usually trade back, Ted even talked about this very thing, one of his comments was you just might not be able to get perfect value, ya might have to give up a little to slide back to a spot you can get that same player, and he did trade out of round one a few times, Got Jordy Nelson doing it.

and I'd bet a shinny new Indian head nickel we could have traded back from slot 12 and still got the DT.

agree some players are scheme dependent from playing in a college system that fit them better then the schemes used by the team that drafts them, and simply are never able to adjust to the new stuff, maybe they play better zone concept then M on M ( Hayward).

thing is if ya look back at Thompsons drafts, filling weak positions with his first few picks was his modus operendi, that is exactly what he did, and we where the most winningest team in the league during his tenure, I'd consider that pretty successful myself, then he'd go BPA in the mid to later rounds, Teds fail imo was not being more active in UFA because even as good as he was the draft has a 50/50 success rate or there abouts and he needed to find players for his bust, and instead he always waited to fix that with the next years draft.

obviously not all selections, even first rounders are not ready to play as rookies, but they should be after a year, not two or 3, thats to long to wait imo.

[Labrev]

I will agree with you on that, yoop; I definitely would have rather given more attention to the middle of the defense (IDL, ILB) than all the resources we threw at EDGE, which I don't believe is truly a premium position anymore (important, just not "must have good"-important like QB, CB1, and LT).

Signing both Smiths was excessive, would have been smarter to spend some of that money at DT or LB.

I wouldn't want to miss out on a guy with Gary's excitingly high ceiling just because of that, though, especially since there was no ILB or DT (or really any other position, period) on the board at 12 who was comparably exciting except for maybe Simmons (but to me it was pretty neck-and-neck between those two), or D.K. Metcalf, but he was even more of a boom-or-bust pick.

[salmar80]

I will agree with you on that, yoop; I definitely would have rather given more attention to the middle of the defense (IDL, ILB) than all the resources we threw at EDGE, which I don't believe is truly a premium position anymore (important, just not "must have good"-important like QB, CB1, and LT).

Signing both Smiths was excessive, would have been smarter to spend some of that money at DT or LB.

I wouldn't want to miss out on a guy with Gary's excitingly high ceiling just because of that, though, especially since there was no ILB or DT (or really any other position, period) on the board at 12 who was comparably exciting except for maybe Simmons (but to me it was pretty neck-and-neck between those two), or D.K. Metcalf, but he was even more of a boom-or-bust pick.

When we signed them, we had NOTHING at the pass rushing department. Fack was our best talent, and he sucks.

Gutey could've gone like [mention]lupedafiasco[/mention] likes to build rosters: One player per position and injuries are turned off. Zero redundancy.

Neither Smith was a guaranteed success. They got nowhere close to the top of the market. Just ask da Bears, who still suck.

Gutey will rather be too deep at premium positions than lack talent at them. It's not optimal. But I'll rather have 3 too good pass rushers than be screwed if one gets injured.

[Yoop]

I will agree with you on that, yoop; I definitely would have rather given more attention to the middle of the defense (IDL, ILB) than all the resources we threw at EDGE, which I don't believe is truly a premium position anymore (important, just not "must have good"-important like QB, CB1, and LT).

Signing both Smiths was excessive, would have been smarter to spend some of that money at DT or LB.

I wouldn't want to miss out on a guy with Gary's excitingly high ceiling just because of that, though, especially since there was no ILB or DT (or really any other position, period) on the board at 12 who was comparably exciting except for maybe Simmons (but to me it was pretty neck-and-neck between those two), or D.K. Metcalf, but he was even more of a boom-or-bust pick.

edge is still the easiest way to increase the ability to pressure the passer, for every quality DT you can get 3 edge rushers, or there abouts.

saying that, Simmons was available though and he would helped us more then Gary, and in the process of trading back for him we might have picked up a mid round draft pick, ehhhhhh, just my thoughts.

I use to want a guy like Gary, or any player that could become a one of a kind game changer, but most of the players I thought where one didn't amount to being that or there production at that ceiling was short lived, ( Raji) and we've very rarely been in position to draft one, I didn't consider Gary as a player like that during that draft, and we already had the Smiths, so sliding back for Simmons seemed wise, but I also like Fant who I think went around that same slot 18 range.

[Yoop]

Simmons is a stud DT, and stud DT's are harder to find then edge rushers, he lasted till slot 19, only because he had a acl a year prior, heres some PFF comments.

Simmons would have likely gone inside the top 10 had he not torn his ACL prior to the draft, so the Titans received impressive value here. Simmons was not expected to see the field during his rookie campaign, but he defied the odds and made his debut in Week 7, logging 397 snaps on the year. Simmons flashed some dominant reps en route to a 67.2 PFF grade and took a leap forward in 2020. This past season, Simmons had two of the best games we saw at the position from a player not named Aaron Donald with a 92.8 PFF grade in Week 3 and a 94.2 in Week 9. That led to him finishing the year with an 83.6 PFF grade, the eighth-highest at the position.

seriously if we where planning to groom our top pick Simmons would seem to have been a wiser choice

[BF004]

Simmons is a stud DT, and stud DT's are harder to find then edge rushers, he lasted till slot 19,only because he had a acl a year prior, heres some PFF comments.

Are you $%@# serious?

[go pak go]

Simmons is a stud DT, and stud DT's are harder to find then edge rushers, he lasted till slot 19,only because he had a acl a year prior, heres some PFF comments.

Are you $%@# serious?

Yoop has always been known as the guy to go the extra mile and find everything out about a player/topic.

Honestly. I was shocked Simmons went at 19 with all his baggage. I would have been less surprised had he not been picked that night.

[go pak go]

seriously if we where planning to groom our top pick Simmons would seem to have been a wiser choice

Yeah.

Cuz what's the worst that could happen right?

[lupedafiasco]

I will agree with you on that, yoop; I definitely would have rather given more attention to the middle of the defense (IDL, ILB) than all the resources we threw at EDGE, which I don't believe is truly a premium position anymore (important, just not "must have good"-important like QB, CB1, and LT).

Signing both Smiths was excessive, would have been smarter to spend some of that money at DT or LB.

I wouldn't want to miss out on a guy with Gary's excitingly high ceiling just because of that, though, especially since there was no ILB or DT (or really any other position, period) on the board at 12 who was comparably exciting except for maybe Simmons (but to me it was pretty neck-and-neck between those two), or D.K. Metcalf, but he was even more of a boom-or-bust pick.

When we signed them, we had NOTHING at the pass rushing department. Fack was our best talent, and he sucks.

Gutey could've gone like @lupedafiasco likes to build rosters: One player per position and injuries are turned off. Zero redundancy.

Neither Smith was a guaranteed success. They got nowhere close to the top of the market. Just ask da Bears, who still suck.

Gutey will rather be too deep at premium positions than lack talent at them. It's not optimal. But I'll rather have 3 too good pass rushers than be screwed if one gets injured.

I mean you gotta at least make an attempt to fill in your starters. You can’t go a decade plus and field poor inside linebackers and then question why your team year in and year out can’t stop the run.

[Labrev]

I will agree with you on that, yoop; I definitely would have rather given more attention to the middle of the defense (IDL, ILB) than all the resources we threw at EDGE, which I don't believe is truly a premium position anymore (important, just not "must have good"-important like QB, CB1, and LT).

Signing both Smiths was excessive, would have been smarter to spend some of that money at DT or LB.

I wouldn't want to miss out on a guy with Gary's excitingly high ceiling just because of that, though, especially since there was no ILB or DT (or really any other position, period) on the board at 12 who was comparably exciting except for maybe Simmons (but to me it was pretty neck-and-neck between those two), or D.K. Metcalf, but he was even more of a boom-or-bust pick.

When we signed them, we had NOTHING at the pass rushing department. Fack was our best talent, and he sucks.

Gutey could've gone like @lupedafiasco likes to build rosters: One player per position and injuries are turned off. Zero redundancy.

Neither Smith was a guaranteed success. They got nowhere close to the top of the market. Just ask da Bears, who still suck.

Gutey will rather be too deep at premium positions than lack talent at them. It's not optimal. But I'll rather have 3 too good pass rushers than be screwed if one gets injured.

There's more than one way to bolster your pass-rush, though. Interior pressure from Stud DL or those who specialize in rushing the pass and ILB that blitz well can also give you that, and I would argue that that's a better way to do it than loading up at EDGE because interior pass-rush is more disruptive than edge-rush, the latter having been largely negated by QBs getting the ball out a lot faster (which is why I no longer see EDGE as "premium" position).

This doesn't really detract from the Gary pick though because he has the size to be used as an interior rusher in addition to his usual EDGE duties, and his athleticism will be a serious mismatch for IOL that cannot move well.

I am glad to hear that Gary has finally been getting looks there this training camp. Coming out party is gonna be LIT

[Yoop]

Simmons is a stud DT, and stud DT's are harder to find then edge rushers, he lasted till slot 19,only because he had a acl a year prior, heres some PFF comments.

Are you $%@# serious?

you $%@# right I am, Simmons was dragged into a situation where he defended his family against a loud mouth jerk of a woman, and paid for it, not going to hold that against him.

heres a recap of what happened, and the Titans got a gem for believing in him, and where given a high grade for that draft, mean while our pick get a grade of undetermined. so Ya, I'am serious.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/sports ... 130771001/

[BF004]

Wow, is there anything you won’t do to avoid conceding an argument? And again, you aren’t even debating my point that I was refuting, about why he dropped. And then for some reason trying to justify what happened so you can maintain your talking point.

You are so often grossly under informed.

[Labrev]

Yeah, when you're a 6'4/300-lb. mountain of a man (or whatever his height/weight is), punching a woman in the face is excessive no matter how unruly she is being.

He wasn't so macho when we ran all over his ass with Jones and Dillon, though.