Cheese Curds - News Around The League 2021

[YoHoChecko]

I mean you gotta at least make an attempt to fill in your starters. You can’t go a decade plus and field poor inside linebackers and then question why your team year in and year out can’t stop the run.

What counts as trying? Drafting Oren Burks was trying. Drafting Kamal Martin was trying. Signing Christian Kirksey was trying. Signing DeVondre Campbell was trying. To a lesser degree, late round picks on McDuffie and Summers was trying. Most of those attempts have failed or are incomplete. But "you at least have to attempt to fill in your starters" is a very, very dumb thing to say. Like extremely dumb. It lacks any rigor, good faith, and basis in reality. It's just an empty platitude and I am personally more annoyed at smart posters saying things like this than I am with anyone who trolls or argues in circles.

The whole conversation about picks that is so individualized--like we should have picked this one guy instead of that one guy. Looking at a pick in a vacuum of itself instead of as a whole... the whole process that people have been trotting out for years here, it's worthless. It has absolutely no basis in the reality of football operations. Team building has to be viewed as a whole. You have to balance elite athleticism and the right character. You have to balance lower risk additions with higher risk additions. You have to operate within a hard-capped system with trade-offs.

When you address a position with quantity, it is a simple acknowledgement of the FACT that every individual move is on a risk spectrum. You can't assume every move will work. You have to operate with the knowledge that some picks will hit and some won't. Some free agent additions will fit right in and contribute and some will disappoint. You HAVE to operate like that. If you build a football team assuming every move you make is right, and thus there is no need to attack positional needs with quantity, or you can just add a player for each need and consider it filled, then you will fail. And only someone arrogant and lacking self-awareness would ever suggest such a plan--because they simply believe in their own infallibility; their inability to err.

[lupedafiasco]

I mean you gotta at least make an attempt to fill in your starters. You can’t go a decade plus and field poor inside linebackers and then question why your team year in and year out can’t stop the run.

What counts as trying? Drafting Oren Burks was trying. Drafting Kamal Martin was trying. Signing Christian Kirksey was trying. Signing DeVondre Campbell was trying. To a lesser degree, late round picks on McDuffie and Summers was trying. Most of those attempts have failed or are incomplete. But "you at least have to attempt to fill in your starters" is a very, very dumb thing to say. Like extremely dumb. It lacks any rigor, good faith, and basis in reality. It's just an empty platitude and I am personally more annoyed at smart posters saying things like this than I am with anyone who trolls or argues in circles.

The whole conversation about picks that is so individualized--like we should have picked this one guy instead of that one guy. Looking at a pick in a vacuum of itself instead of as a whole... the whole process that people have been trotting out for years here, it's worthless. It has absolutely no basis in the reality of football operations. Team building has to be viewed as a whole. You have to balance elite athleticism and the right character. You have to balance lower risk additions with higher risk additions. You have to operate within a hard-capped system with trade-offs.

When you address a position with quantity, it is a simple acknowledgement of the FACT that every individual move is on a risk spectrum. You can't assume every move will work. You have to operate with the knowledge that some picks will hit and some won't. Some free agent additions will fit right in and contribute and some will disappoint. You HAVE to operate like that. If you build a football team assuming every move you make is right, and thus there is no need to attack positional needs with quantity, or you can just add a player for each need and consider it filled, then you will fail. And only someone arrogant and lacking self-awareness would ever suggest such a plan--because they simply believe in their own infallibility; their inability to err.

Joe mama

[salmar80]

I will agree with you on that, yoop; I definitely would have rather given more attention to the middle of the defense (IDL, ILB) than all the resources we threw at EDGE, which I don't believe is truly a premium position anymore (important, just not "must have good"-important like QB, CB1, and LT).

Signing both Smiths was excessive, would have been smarter to spend some of that money at DT or LB.

I wouldn't want to miss out on a guy with Gary's excitingly high ceiling just because of that, though, especially since there was no ILB or DT (or really any other position, period) on the board at 12 who was comparably exciting except for maybe Simmons (but to me it was pretty neck-and-neck between those two), or D.K. Metcalf, but he was even more of a boom-or-bust pick.

When we signed them, we had NOTHING at the pass rushing department. Fack was our best talent, and he sucks.

Gutey could've gone like @lupedafiasco likes to build rosters: One player per position and injuries are turned off. Zero redundancy.

Neither Smith was a guaranteed success. They got nowhere close to the top of the market. Just ask da Bears, who still suck.

Gutey will rather be too deep at premium positions than lack talent at them. It's not optimal. But I'll rather have 3 too good pass rushers than be screwed if one gets injured.

I mean you gotta at least make an attempt to fill in your starters. You can’t go a decade plus and field poor inside linebackers and then question why your team year in and year out can’t stop the run.

I agree that the amount of resources being spent at ILB is weird.

Barnes is an incredible find, but not elite by any stretch.

Gutey seems to think we can make it work with inside lbs without elite talent. He has passed on so many opportunities at that, it's a pattern.

Otherwise I think Gutey believes that if you have overall superior talent and depth, it'll compensate for weaknesses. It would not work on Madden, but it may in real life.

[go pak go]

When we signed them, we had NOTHING at the pass rushing department. Fack was our best talent, and he sucks.

Gutey could've gone like @lupedafiasco likes to build rosters: One player per position and injuries are turned off. Zero redundancy.

Neither Smith was a guaranteed success. They got nowhere close to the top of the market. Just ask da Bears, who still suck.

Gutey will rather be too deep at premium positions than lack talent at them. It's not optimal. But I'll rather have 3 too good pass rushers than be screwed if one gets injured.

I mean you gotta at least make an attempt to fill in your starters. You can’t go a decade plus and field poor inside linebackers and then question why your team year in and year out can’t stop the run.

I agree that the amount of resources being spent at ILB is weird.

Barnes is an incredible find, but not elite by any stretch.

Gutey seems to think we can make it work with inside lbs without elite talent. He has passed on so many opportunities at that, it's a pattern.

Otherwise I think Gutey believes that if you have overall superior talent and depth, it'll compensate for weaknesses. It would not work on Madden, but it may in real life.

Danny Travathan
Erick Kendricks
Tremaine Edmonds
Patrick Queen

That is the list of ILBs we have passed on who I really wanted and we had a real shot at since 2015.

Looking back - We would have been right to sign Travathan. I'd trade Randle for Kendricks any day (even if it means we didn't have the money to sign Preston Smith). I would take Jaire Alexander for Edmunds and Patrick Queen is incomplete yet so far doesn't seem to be much of a fall off of what we have.

So my 2015 moves would have been correct. My Gutey moves were probably wrong.

[Yoop]

Wow, is there anything you won’t do to avoid conceding an argument? And again, you aren’t even debating my point that I was refuting, about why he dropped. And then for some reason trying to justify what happened so you can maintain your talking point.

You are so often grossly under informed.

OK I'd admit I didn't know the whole story, but I did know that he took responsibility for his actions and kept clean ever since, and we needed a DT more then we needed another OLB.

and what point did you make, besides asking me if I was $%@# serious.

anyway I read about it more from what little I could dig up, and again I stand behind what I said, some teams might have dropped him from draft consideration, but the ACL just months before the draft I think was the major reason he dropped to slot 19, no priors and nothing in the 5 years since the incident, you act like he was a ticking time bomb and he wasn't, and Tenn. did due diligeince and realized he wasn't as well, and now they have a real game changing DT.

Simmons produced a 4.0 GPA his first full semester on campus. He represented Mississippi State at the Black Student-Athlete Summit in Austin in January. He gives motivational speeches in schools across the Golden Triangle during the offseason. On his official bio page, Mississippi State calls Simmons its team leader in community service.

“I almost forget Jeffery even did it,” Baker said. “There is nothing, nothing, nothing about him that would indicate that action represents who he is as a man.”

Testimonials aren’t hard to find in regards to Simmons’ character. But as Abrams would tell you, the same person who draws so much praise can co-exist with the 18-year-old in the video. When Simmons first described the incident to the media in 2017, he said: “I really didn't know I did that and when I actually watched the video, I kind of had a mental breakdown like, 'Dang, this can't be true.’”

https://247sports.com/Article/Jeffery-S ... 120993034/

[Drj820]

I mean you gotta at least make an attempt to fill in your starters. You can’t go a decade plus and field poor inside linebackers and then question why your team year in and year out can’t stop the run.

What counts as trying? Drafting Oren Burks was trying. Drafting Kamal Martin was trying. Signing Christian Kirksey was trying. Signing DeVondre Campbell was trying. To a lesser degree, late round picks on McDuffie and Summers was trying.

To many of us, these low cost efforts do not meet the threshold of legitimately “trying” consider the seriousness of the need. These efforts are more a keen to not working a job and relying on winning the lottery to pay the mortgage, or praying for better health while continuing to eat Big Macs everyday for lunch and dinner.

[BF004]

It was quite obvious. I quoted and bolded you saying “he lasted till slot 19,only because he had a acl a year prior”.

There is no doubt what my point was and what I was refuting.

Defending or apparently being okay with repetitively punching a woman in the face, despite an impressive GPA, isn’t even the issue, or what he had done since.

But to absolutely imply it had zero impact on his draft status just showed you were under informed on the topic.

[go pak go]

I mean you gotta at least make an attempt to fill in your starters. You can’t go a decade plus and field poor inside linebackers and then question why your team year in and year out can’t stop the run.

What counts as trying? Drafting Oren Burks was trying. Drafting Kamal Martin was trying. Signing Christian Kirksey was trying. Signing DeVondre Campbell was trying. To a lesser degree, late round picks on McDuffie and Summers was trying.

To many of us, these low cost efforts do not meet the threshold of legitimately “trying” consider the seriousness of the need. These efforts are more a keen to not working a job and relying on winning the lottery to pay the mortgage, or praying for better health while continuing to eat Big Macs everyday for lunch and dinner.

I mean a 3rd round pick and a somewhat decent FA contract isn't "not trying"

I would say it's at least effort

[BF004]

[Yoop]

It was quite obvious. I quoted and bolded you saying “he lasted till slot 19,only because he had a acl a year prior”.

There is no doubt what my point was and what I was refuting.

Defending or apparently being okay with repetitively punching a woman in the face, despite an impressive GPA, isn’t even the issue, or what he had done since.

But to absolutely imply it had zero impact on his draft status just showed you were under informed on the topic.

words matter, you attacked me with the $%@# word and I struck back and again you blew what Simmons did 3 years prior when he was 18 into that incident was the main reason he dropped to slot 19, and that is just a guess on your part, just as it's a guess from me that the acl was the issue, neither of us know why exactly, for cripe sacks I even brought a PFF clip to support my point, the only thing you brought was your " are you $%@# serious" comment.

the point is he made a mistake, and owned up to it, and was worthy of being picked in the NFL draft, just maybe this idea that every player has to be spot clean or they can't play for GB is why this defenses has sucked for a decade.

[go pak go]

I mean the Packers defense was significantly better than the Titans defense. In all categories too.

[Yoop]

I mean the Packers defense was significantly better than the Titans defense. In all categories too.

and what does this have to do with???????? Simmons sure as &%$@ was not the reason why his team was worse then ours, Simmons is Clark good, and you know just how hard it is to find quality like that at DT, why you people are slamming Simmons is mind boggling STUPID, all to defend Gary, there are a half doz Gary's for every Simmons, just look how many DT's Ted took that never amounted to &%$@.

[lupedafiasco]

I mean the Packers defense was significantly better than the Titans defense. In all categories too.

I’m sure that was Simmons fault. Packers we’re better than the Vikings defensively too. You don’t want Kendricks?

[go pak go]

I mean the Packers defense was significantly better than the Titans defense. In all categories too.

I’m sure that was Simmons fault. Packers we’re better than the Vikings defensively too. You don’t want Kendricks?

I had Kendricks as my most coveted player in 2015. I to this day call the Damarious Randal selection and TT's dealing with the secondary from that time frame his greatest blunder as a GM.

I had Simmons in basically every one of my mocks at selection #30 in 2019. I loved Simmons the player. I know you did too. We both had them constantly in our mocks. I would have been thrilled had we selected him that night.

[Yoop]

minus the ACL, and possibly the baggage from 3 years prior and Simmons would have went top 10, possibly top 5, however he had ACL surgery several months before the draft and hardly anyone expected him to play his rookie season, I wasn't surprised he dropped past our draft, what surprised me is that Guty didn't break a leg getting to the phone to call the pick in and you thought he might not get drafted at all, mostly I think based on what seems is a one time incident, and one with sketchy circumstances, everyone thats known Simmons a long time (prior and post draft) say that was out of character for him.

and all of this was in his pre draft hype, along with I suppose a bunch of damning opinionated articles from people that barely know his name.

I looked up 3 or 4 articles and all have a positive slant on Jeffery Simmons, if we passed due to the acl, thats one thing, if we passed on the legal stuff, then imho we didn't check him out enough, but again, OK, I don't like it, but alright ( obviously it's only a matter of time before he calls a oriental a slant eye to), but if we passed on Simmons for Gary, thats a real head scratcher for me.

Now I'am sorry for the on on and on with this but our use of slot 12 in the 2019 draft has bothered me ever sense the draft, even Guty moving up for Savage couldn't ease my pain, after months and months of grieving I was rewarded another trip to the NFCCG, only to lose because we didn't draft Jeffery Simmons more heartache

I'am so hoping that Gary helps me forget that we passed on Simmons for him.

[Pckfn23]

I will agree with you on that, yoop; I definitely would have rather given more attention to the middle of the defense (IDL, ILB) than all the resources we threw at EDGE, which I don't believe is truly a premium position anymore (important, just not "must have good"-important like QB, CB1, and LT).

Signing both Smiths was excessive, would have been smarter to spend some of that money at DT or LB.

I wouldn't want to miss out on a guy with Gary's excitingly high ceiling just because of that, though, especially since there was no ILB or DT (or really any other position, period) on the board at 12 who was comparably exciting except for maybe Simmons (but to me it was pretty neck-and-neck between those two), or D.K. Metcalf, but he was even more of a boom-or-bust pick.

When we signed them, we had NOTHING at the pass rushing department. Fack was our best talent, and he sucks.

Absolutely important to look at the where the Packers were at the time of drafting Gary. You are 100% correct that we had almost no edge rushers before Free Agency and the draft. I think it is also important to look at who Preston Smith and Za'Darius Smith were when we acquired them.

This was Za'Darius Smith:

image.png (32.81 KiB) Viewed 369 times

image.png (28.42 KiB) Viewed 369 times

This was Preston Smith:

image.png (41.24 KiB) Viewed 369 times

image.png (22.52 KiB) Viewed 369 times

These guys were not the risk free acquisitions that hindsight tells us. It was not the folly or stacking of the position that some are making it out to be when Gary was drafted. The year prior Preston Smith had 4 sacks and 26 pressures and was more known for his run defense. It is interesting to see that he has always had a good year followed by a below average year and last year was not exception. Za'Darius Smith was better the year prior than Preston was. He had 8.5 sacks and 35 pressures. These just were not your can't miss signings that they ended up being in 2019. The narrative that we didn't need an Edge rusher is mostly based on hindsight.

[go pak go]

and you thought he might not get drafted at all.

I legitimately want to know what goes on in your head when you read stuff and how you come to your conclusions.

[go pak go]

I looked up 3 or 4 articles and all have a positive slant on Jeffery Simmons, if we passed due to the acl, thats one thing, if we passed on the legal stuff, then imho we didn't check him out enough, but again, OK, I don't like it, but alright ( obviously it's only a matter of time before he calls a oriental a slant eye to), but if we passed on Simmons for Gary, thats a real head scratcher for me.

The Packers had Luke Getsy on our staff again by the time we were in heavy draft process. I believe there was another one as well.

Luke Getsy was the OC for Mississippi State in 2018 and so he absolutely had WAY more sources and knowledge at the time than any Google search will get you.

This was discussed at length during the 2019 offseason. The Packers had more insight and resources available at knowing the person and talent than likely any other team in the league. It's why it was commonly stated on this board that if we took him at 12, we would have been stoked because even if Getsy didn't work with him directly, he had buddies who did who would give us the straight answer. There also could have been a play to try and get Simmons with the next pick but he was taken too soon.

Who knows. But I am pretty damned confident the Packers had a very solid understanding of who Jeff Simmons was.

[go pak go]

Now I'am sorry for the on on and on with this but our use of slot 12 in the 2019 draft has bothered me ever sense the draft, even Guty moving up for Savage couldn't ease my pain, after months and months of grieving I was rewarded another trip to the NFCCG, only to lose because we didn't draft Jeffery Simmons more heartache

I'am so hoping that Gary helps me forget that we passed on Simmons for him.

First it was 6 months of posting because we didn't trade up for Devin Bush. Gute should have known Pittsburgh had their eye on him.

Then during 2019 it was, "we should have taken Fant" because we didn't have a TE and Fant was a TE.

Then in 2020 it became Jeffery Simmons because he started playing well, or at least you took notice, and Tonyan filled that TE hole that was previously complained about so gotta find the next gap in the roster to use hindsight on.

I mean at least stick to your guy. Stick to your guns. You were a Cody Ford Dancing Bear guy through and through. That' who we should have taken at 12.

The primary point is a few things:
1. It's really hard to know where players will go or how they will do/when they will blossom in the league.
2. It's even harder to try and align "team needs" to draft. Because as you can see above, we have seen a consistent shift in your reasoning and complaining of what that #12 slot should have filled. We went from "shoulda been Burns (this admittedly was likely a me thing. I loved Burns), to shoulda traded up for Bush, to shoulda taken Fant to now shoulda taken Jeffery Simmons" All the while 2nd round selections DJ Metcalf and the Titans WR have been brought up too when we felt we were lacking at WR.

Team needs constantly shift. Injuries, unwelcome surprises of signed players not being as good as projected, pleasant surprises of players being better than expected, team philosophical shift in how they play, players going on the trade block, all make roster building a fluid and constantly changing thing. Add on that, a positional window with a team is usually 3 years on the long end. So even if a position looks super deep on year...it likely won't the following year.

It's why I still stand by that positional drafting is significantly deeper than just saying, "we don't have many X's on the team"

I mean hell. If TJ Slayton continues to shine at DT for us and Gary breaks out...suddenly Gute looks like a genius. It's why again I choose to wait on any judgement.

[Yoop]

Then during 2019 it was, "we should have taken Fant" because we didn't have a TE and Fant was a TE.

Then in 2020 it became Jeffery Simmons because he started playing well, or at least you took notice, and Tonyan filled that TE hole that was previously complained about so gotta find the next gap in the roster to use hindsight on.

I mean at least stick to your guy. Stick to your guns. You were a Cody Ford Dancing Bear guy through and through. That' who we should have taken at 12.

we all thought it would be great to finally get a guy like Bush, but I don't remember ever wanting to trade up for him, and I have no idea where you are coming from with Cody Ford, he was never even a player I liked that much, We had almost no idea who Tonyan even was, so Fant was obviously a consideration, Simmons I sort of figured was off our boards for the medical, so yes I'am using a little hindsight concerning him, but again as I said if we planned to groom up Gary behind the Smiths then whats the diff if Simmons has to heal, and he healed quick., while Gary has been grooming for two seasons.

as LaBreve said, theres more then one way to spoil a QB's afternoon, we just saw how those DT's from Pittsburg do it, the shortest route from here to there is a straight line, and the quickest, and pressure up front helps the end around from a edge rusher as well.
OK then, with the help of hindsight I'am taking Simmons over Gary, simply based on availability of finding all pro type players at respective positions, the great DT's are so few, course thats why the good ones make QB type money.