Round 3 (94) - Josiah Deguara, TE Cincinnati

[APB]

Good point. However, what leads you to believe that the front office has actually changed the style of game the want to use? Also, having a highly paid quarterback to run a run oriented offense doesn't sound like.maximizing Rogers value, unless they don't think he can be his talents have permanently declined.

Meant to say "...unless they think his talents have permanently declined."

I mean just to me every move has screamed that they think rodgers isnt what he used to be, and instead of loading him up with a defense in the draft and highly ranked WRs to get open and throw to...it seems they have chosen to almost take the ball out of the highly paid QBs hands.

Drafting Love screams the end is a few seasons away
Drafting the RB over a WR and the TE higher than he was ranked screams to me they want to take the ball out of his hands and run more.

Maybe they regret giving Rodgers all that money and they are acting out of honesty of a new reality, or maybe they think this is the best path to winning now. Im not sure, but i take the draft moves to signal a change in style/philosophy. But that is just my opinion.

I don’t necessarily think the focus is to take the ball out of ARs hands. I think it’s something more in line with adding diversity to the offense. This offense has been so Rodgers dependent for so long. I think the intent is ease the dependency on him, especially as he enters his inevitable declining years, so that the offense can function in all weather and against any type defense.

[YoHoChecko]

I hope that as the circumstances of this draft fade, people come around on this guy. He has all the usual makings of a fan favorite. But because of when he was drafted and what else we've drafted (or haven't), there's a lot of animosity.

[Foosball]

Lucas Niang was available when Gute picked Deguara. In 2018 Niang played really well against Nick Bosa and Chase Young. I'm really disappointed that they reached for Deguara. 95% chance he would have been there in the 5th. The world champion Chiefs picked up Niang 2 picks later. Good job Andy Reid.

Sherman failed at GM because he would focus on players instead of the process. Sherman was almost compulsive when it came to getting the players that he had singled out. Often trading up (losing picks) when he didn't need to. He failed.

This draft has a similar feel. MLF fell in love with a couple players and Gutey went out got them. But at what cost? I guess that will be determined down the road.

As far as the players drafted, I like all of them. I think Dillon will be a star.

I just think the Packers could have come away with another quality player (like Niang) AND still drafted the players they did.

[YoHoChecko]

If y'all get the chance, find the audio of MLF being asked about the Deguara pick. The sincerity when he said "I love Josiah" was intense. He is excited about this football player. The Packers actually used a clip of him in a team meeting last year as an example of hustle and never giving up on a play. The versatility and ability to line up in different formations with the same personnel packages was a huge selling point. When asked if he would be used like Juscyck, he said yes, they'll emulate some of that.

[go pak go]

If y'all get the chance, find the audio of MLF being asked about the Deguara pick. The sincerity when he said "I love Josiah" was intense. He is excited about this football player. The Packers actually used a clip of him in a team meeting last year as an example of hustle and never giving up on a play. The versatility and ability to line up in different formations with the same personnel packages was a huge selling point. When asked if he would be used like Juscyck, he said yes, they'll emulate some of that.

Yeah the dude has a serious man crush on Josiah. I think he is just so jealous of Kyle Shanahan too of being able to utilize that H back role. It was clear they wanted to move on pretty quick from Vitale.

[lulu]

Lucas Niang was available when Gute picked Deguara. In 2018 Niang played really well against Nick Bosa and Chase Young. I'm really disappointed that they reached for Deguara. 95% chance he would have been there in the 5th. The world champion Chiefs picked up Niang 2 picks later. Good job Andy Reid.

Sherman failed at GM because he would focus on players instead of the process. Sherman was almost compulsive when it came to getting the players that he had singled out. Often trading up (losing picks) when he didn't need to. He failed.

This draft has a similar feel. MLF fell in love with a couple players and Gutey went out got them. But at what cost? I guess that will be determined down the road.

As far as the players drafted, I like all of them. I think Dillon will be a star.

I just think the Packers could have come away with another quality player (like Niang) AND still drafted the players they did.

I'm pretty sure LeFleur doesn't scout and tell Gutey who to take.

[lulu]

If y'all get the chance, find the audio of MLF being asked about the Deguara pick. The sincerity when he said "I love Josiah" was intense. He is excited about this football player. The Packers actually used a clip of him in a team meeting last year as an example of hustle and never giving up on a play. The versatility and ability to line up in different formations with the same personnel packages was a huge selling point. When asked if he would be used like Juscyck, he said yes, they'll emulate some of that.

Yeah the dude has a serious man crush on Josiah. I think he is just so jealous of Kyle Shanahan too of being able to utilize that H back role. It was clear they wanted to move on pretty quick from Vitale.

I haven't been as disappointed in the production of a player as I was with Vitale last year. I had such high hopes for him coming out of TC and just didn't materialize.

[Yoop]

If y'all get the chance, find the audio of MLF being asked about the Deguara pick. The sincerity when he said "I love Josiah" was intense. He is excited about this football player. The Packers actually used a clip of him in a team meeting last year as an example of hustle and never giving up on a play. The versatility and ability to line up in different formations with the same personnel packages was a huge selling point. When asked if he would be used like Juscyck, he said yes, they'll emulate some of that.

this is exactly Foosballs point Yoho, Guty did the same thing last year, instead of maximizing value he is so enamored with the player, team value goes out the window, the 12 slot last year could have been turned into 2 later first round picks, Love, basically a boom or bust and for sure long term sitter, could have been a receiver, fo crying out load, if he moved for Love he could have done the same for Jefferson, Reager or Ayiuk.
as for Dillon or the TE, we both know they will have scheme learning issues, and adjustment to the NFL game, basically all 3 picks are for the future, but not the immediate future, none will hit there stride for another year, a top end WR would have helped us more then any other player.

[Waldo]

If y'all get the chance, find the audio of MLF being asked about the Deguara pick. The sincerity when he said "I love Josiah" was intense. He is excited about this football player. The Packers actually used a clip of him in a team meeting last year as an example of hustle and never giving up on a play. The versatility and ability to line up in different formations with the same personnel packages was a huge selling point. When asked if he would be used like Juscyck, he said yes, they'll emulate some of that.

Yeah the dude has a serious man crush on Josiah. I think he is just so jealous of Kyle Shanahan too of being able to utilize that H back role. It was clear they wanted to move on pretty quick from Vitale.

That he does.

But people are hung up on Juscyck at the model of this role. He is not. He is not a particularly good receiver. Delanie Walker and Aaron Hernandez are much more indicative of what a receiving H back can do.

These guys aren't like WR's, having to release against press and with CB's in tight coverage, and a S bracket for the elites. They work instead primarily in zone coverage, looking for soft spots. And when they start beating you a lot and defenders start adjusting their location in zones to ease the pain, that's when the throwing lanes open up for the WRs.

Good TE's beat you with their smarts often. Jason Witten (esp later in his career) wasn't explosive, he didn't have game breaking speed, he wasn't uncoverable in M2M, no, he knew where the soft spots were and got himself there, and shredded teams that way. That's the type of player Josiah is (and likely one of of the reasons MLF has such a huge crush on him). That's who Cobb used to be.

People are really underselling what Josiah can bring to the passing game.

And this team speed nonsense is just that. Nonsense. How many times did #12 miss MVS last year because he badly underthrew him. None of GB's WR's but Lazard and Allison were slow. Allison is gone, and Lazard plays big man ball. EQSB, MVS, and Kumerow have wheels. #12's constant misses deep, usually too short, is one of the reasons many started seeing serious decline, as he didn't used to miss those. GB's receivers are if anything than FASTEST group AR has had, which also is likely a culprit. Aaron has never had a 4.3x receiver like MVS (cept for the PS god that AR and MM hated a few years back).

[Chilli]

Many undersized TEs are often projected to play H-Back or Fullback in the pros.

The problem with that is whilst most of them are likely capable receivers, more often than not they usually have no grittiness to their games - the ability to play physical, to block and thump defenders out of the way. Because they were undersized they were probably never asked to do it in college. They were basically big slot receivers.

So not surprisingly alot of them fail to make the transition to H-Back or Fullback.

The trick is to find one that plays with the right mindset, the willingness to get dirty and physical and marry that with their receiving chops. Only then you've got a nice brew going and now you have a potentially viable H-Back/Fullback. If they are versatile and can be moved around that is an added bonus.

Looking at Deguara it feels like he is that guy. Players like him are rare and for teams that utilise the fullback the interest in him will be high. This might explain why we drafted him in the 3rd round.

A big physical running back who can also catch are rarer still. If one can carry, receive, pass block and smash defenders then you got the makings of the ultimate H-Back. Its way too soon to say Dillion could be that...but what if....

Pure fullbacks in college football are rarely ever used to catch or carry the ball. They tend to be less athletic than TEs. Whilst they might be physical they never develop the skills required to succeed in the NFL. Just hitting players and making holes just isn't enough nowadays. That's why you rarely see pure fullbacks getting drafted when teams are better off trying their luck with undersized TEs and converting them.

[paco]

[YoHoChecko]

And this team speed nonsense is just that. Nonsense. How many times did #12 miss MVS last year because he badly underthrew him. None of GB's WR's but Lazard and Allison were slow. Allison is gone, and Lazard plays big man ball. EQSB, MVS, and Kumerow have wheels. #12's constant misses deep, usually too short, is one of the reasons many started seeing serious decline, as he didn't used to miss those. GB's receivers are if anything than FASTEST group AR has had, which also is likely a culprit. Aaron has never had a 4.3x receiver like MVS (cept for the PS god that AR and MM hated a few years back).

What on earth are you talking about? Jennings, Cobb, Jordy, and Driver were DEFINITELY faster than this group (you also left out Funchess, who also ran above a 4.6).

You're also confusing saying that we lack team speed with saying our WRs are slow. I am not saying our WRs are slow. Kumerow and Adams are fast enough. EQSB has some good speed, but it's build-up. Lazzard and Funchess are slow for WRs (but play big ball). MVS is fast, but can't seem to keep himself on the field.

But when I say we lack team speed, it means that collectively, the group doesn't have enough of those above-average speed guys. We have only one of them, and we're not sure about his route-running, ball-tracking, etc... I mentioned that about MVS in another thread.

On MOST snaps, we don't have any players on the field who run a sub-4.5 40time. That's just true. Not the RB, not the WRs, no one. Individual players can be good--heck, can EXCEL without that speed. That's fine. But having players whose speed individually beats defenses changes the way teams play us, and we didn't have that much of last year, and we don't seem to have that this year. You can do fine without it. But it definitely HELPS to have it. And ignoring the fact that we don't isn't going to convince anyone.

Scroll through the fastest ballcarriers with next gen stats; it's not perfect because it measures the top speed with the ball in your hand, rather than average speed to give a more consistent picture not just relying on individual plays, but it can still be informative. Aaron Jones occasionally lands in the weekly top 20. Davante Adams makes an appearance. MVS gets there once! But you'll see a lot of repeat performers around other teams. We very clearly are not a speed-oriented offense.

[YoHoChecko]

I love this. I love that not everyone was in the room when it happened and they had to go get people. I love the little outburst when they heard him say "Packer" and the eruption when he got off the phone. Good clean fun. #wholesome

[Drj820]

I love this. I love that not everyone was in the room when it happened and they had to go get people. I love the little outburst when they heard him say "Packer" and the eruption when he got off the phone. Good clean fun. #wholesome

I love this also. Pure joy of a dream achieved. I will say though the fact they were all so shocked and not everybody was in the room yet, tells me even they weren’t expecting to be drafted as early as he was. Ha good stuff though.

[Chilli]

I saw his nfl.com draft profile and he is compared to Tyler Conklin who was taken in the 5th round.

But what about his Minnesota teammate, Irv Smith Jr? They're practically identical in terms of measurables and metric. He was taken in the 2nd round. So from a talent level perspective Degaura is closer to Irv Smith. Their college production in their final seasons were similar too. Deguara just turned 23 in February whilst Irv Smith wont turn 22 til August.

But are they similar players at all? Do they even play the same roles? Irv Smith looks slimmer and lighter on his feet whereas Degaura is thicker and heavier footed.

[YoHoChecko]

I saw his nfl.com draft profile and he is compared to Tyler Conklin who was taken in the 5th round.

But what about his Minnesota teammate, Irv Smith Jr? They're practically identical in terms of measurables and metric. He was taken in the 2nd round. So from a talent level perspective Degaura is closer to Irv Smith. Their college production in their final seasons were similar too. Deguara just turned 23 in February whilst Irv Smith wont turn 22 til August.

But are they similar players at all? Do they even play the same roles? Irv Smith looks slimmer and lighter on his feet whereas Degaura is thicker and heavier footed.

Smith is a poor-blocker and finesse player a move TE. Deguara is a good blocker and a gritty lunch pail player as a move TE. Irv Smith dreams of being Jordan Reed. Deguara dreams of being early-career Delanie Walker. Neither is there. Irv is still trying to get to Evan Engram while Deguara still has to get to Kyle Juscyk

[Yoop]

talking to a packer fan buddy yesterday, he made a comment concerning our WR's, he said if he was a FS he'd look for ward to playing the Packers , what good is speed if ya use it like MVS or these other jags, what we really lack is quickness, there is no suttleness to our receiver group, they move like frozen jelly, most lack any burst out of there breaks, and thats when they don't round the routes, a UDFA FS would go to the pro bowl every year if all he had to do was play the Packers, this bruttle honesty was un nerving, I befriended that SOB

[YoHoChecko]

talking to a packer fan buddy yesterday, he made a comment concerning our WR's, he said if he was a FS he'd look for ward to playing the Packers , what good is speed if ya use it like MVS or these other jags, what we really lack is quickness, there is no suttleness to our receiver group, they move like frozen jelly, most lack any burst out of there breaks, and thats when they don't round the routes, a UDFA FS would go to the pro bowl every year if all he had to do was play the Packers, this bruttle honesty was un nerving, I befriended that SOB

I actually agree completely. We do lack suddenness. It is a problem. It does limit separation, and it does allow free safeties an easier time helping out in coverage.

I'm not 100% sure how the Josiah Deguara thread moved to this direction, but we can definitely say that yeah, Deguara is yet another athlete on the team that has versatility without suddenness. That doesn't mean I don't love the player, but it does continue to leaveone issue behind on offense. Our build-up speed guys, our smooth guys, our physical guys... outside of Adams, we're lacking in suddenness, to include MVS and his excellent deep speed. I'll try to use that word more often when describing what I'm looking for. I know it came up between myself and BF discussing some WRs--namely our disagreements over Ruggs and Mims.

[Pckfn23]

Deguara is a TE, BTW. I fail to see what our WRs have to do with Deguara?

As for quickness and suddenness: https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/josiah-deguara

I would say pretty decent in that area.

No suttleness? Not sure about that one. He seems to be a more direct kind of guy, to me.

[Pckfn23]

Let's see a comparison here. This TE was a traditional Y off:
Height: 6044
Weight: 243
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.82
40 Yard Dash (HH): 4.83
20 Yard (ET): 2.79
20 Yard (HH): 2.80
10 Yard (ET): 1.66
10 Yard (HH): 1.65
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20
Vertical Jump: 27 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'09"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.38
3-Cone Drill: 7.15

This is Josiah Deguara:
Height: 6023
Weight: 242
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.72
40 Yard Dash (HH): 4.65
20 Yard (ET): 2.77
20 Yard (HH): 2.65
10 Yard (ET): 1.68
10 Yard (HH): 1.59
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 25
Vertical Jump: 35 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'07"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.35
3-Cone Drill: 7.15