2020 General Draft Discussion

[YoHoChecko]

Beyond that, are we sure gutey is a quality talent evaluator?

We're not sure yet, no.

We are sure that he hit a free agency home run with Z, and that Smith and Amos were also very good additions
We are sure that Jaire is a talented player and worthy of a 1st round pick
We are sure that Elgton Jenkins is a talented player who exceeded draft status expectations
We are sure that Darnell Savage at the very least isn't a wasted pick and is capable of playing in the league

So he has hits, as well We all know it takes a few years to really evaluate a class. This year--the year his first draft class is entering their third year, will tell us a lot about that class. Does MVS stay disappointing or take the step forward. Does EQSB emerge as anything more than a big slot backup? Does Oren Burks stay healthy and look competent on the field or does he continue to be a total washout.

We also have some second year players that we should see progress from if he's good, mostly Gary and Sternberger.

If we don't see the progress from a good number of those, then we start to say "wait, a lot of these players aren't working out." It's important to remember that EVERY team/GM has hits and misses; that the evaluation can't be made against perfection, but against his peers, and you look, after 3 years "ok, is his hit rate too low compared to others?" Are the second-year players showing signs that they may add to the hit rate?

Then we'll start to know more. No one thought TT was a good talent evaluator after his first year, either, with Rodgers on the bench, Murphy's career ended after three games due to injury, and Nick Collins being chronically underrated because he dropped INTs. In year two, Greg Jennings was a solid rookie, but not spectaular; Rodgers was still on the bench. Murphy was medically retires. Collins was still dropping INTs and being underrated. In year three, Jennings was good, Collins was good, Rodgers was still on the bench; the rookies weren't contributing much (Harrell, B. Jackson, James Jones). In year 4, Aaron Rodgers was an excellent starter, Nick Collins was a breakout star, Greg Jennings was a #1 WR, and the rookies were Clay Matthews and BJ Raji. By then, we knew.

But it takes time to know. Unless you're lupe. Lupe knows everything pretty quickly, according to lupe.

[Yoop]

I think they are telling us it isn't the receivers, it is the QB.

that must be why they gave him more money to stay 18 months ago, so if they think it's a QB problem that makes them a bunch of stupid SOB's.

you just can't help starting some idiotic BS can you, Rodgers playing for a team like KC last year gets him a SB, hell he could do it with a few teams, but he'll never do it for a team that wont help him like ours, the only impact offensive player drafted in the last 7 years is Aaron Jones, and you want to blame Rodgers, you and a few others here have A SCREW LOSE, you use Rodgers to scape goat some of the most disfunctional FO moves we've experienced in over a decade, it's beyond ignorant to blame Rodgers.

Il defend 23 here, that is what they showed us this draft. They screamed it.

Now we take that and either agree with them (I dont), we think Gutey has trouble evaluating talent (maybe), we think he just gets green tint groovy love glasses for players he drafts (probably), or he is right about Rodgers and he needs to be held accountable for his own decision to extend the guy to a massive contract.

I’d say those are the options.

just look at Thompsons drafts the last 5 years, total suckage, no WR's and practically every defensive pick was a bust, thats disfunction, McCarthy's schemes lacked the talent to play them, for years this draft and develop didn't produce starting talent, very few UFA help, Rodgers has carried this team every year, last year he got some added help with Jones, thats it, and Jones is the last impact player drafted on Offense, people that blame Rodgers for anything have a screw lose, without him and we don't make the play offs, Rodgers is still a top 5 or so QB, I really have to laugh at people, give him the receiver group that Mahomes has and no one would be talking this &%$@. we've $%@# over Rodgers for years.

[lupedafiasco]

And then TT took the team to the Super Bowl and went on a historic run of idiocy and wasted the opportunity to have one of the greatest dynasties ever.

The end.

[Carl Gerbschmidt]

I will not complain until losses pile up, stop complaining the 2020 Packers are still undefeated.

[Drj820]

I will not complain until losses pile up, stop complaining the 2020 Packers are still undefeated.

lol apologies for discussing the gm and the draft on the 2020 general draft discussion thread.

[Drj820]

Lafleur made a point to mention how impressive it was that Love was accountable and took responsibility for his part in the down year, and his part in plays that went bad. He mentioned how much that meant to the team.

Wonder if that was a passive dig at 12.

[YoHoChecko]

Lafleur made a point to mention how impressive it was that Love was accountable and took responsibility for his part in the down year, and his part in plays that went bad. He mentioned how much that meant to the team.

Wonder if that was a passive dig at 12.

If it were Gutey, maybe. I genuinely get the sense that MLF thinks Rodgers is really effing good. Maybe he's lying because he has to act that way, but when he talks about his love for Rodgers, it feels really genuine to me. Just like it did when he talked about Deguara.

[go pak go]

that must be why they gave him more money to stay 18 months ago, so if they think it's a QB problem that makes them a bunch of stupid SOB's.

you just can't help starting some idiotic BS can you, Rodgers playing for a team like KC last year gets him a SB, hell he could do it with a few teams, but he'll never do it for a team that wont help him like ours, the only impact offensive player drafted in the last 7 years is Aaron Jones, and you want to blame Rodgers, you and a few others here have A SCREW LOSE, you use Rodgers to scape goat some of the most disfunctional FO moves we've experienced in over a decade, it's beyond ignorant to blame Rodgers.

Il defend 23 here, that is what they showed us this draft. They screamed it.

Now we take that and either agree with them (I dont), we think Gutey has trouble evaluating talent (maybe), we think he just gets green tint groovy love glasses for players he drafts (probably), or he is right about Rodgers and he needs to be held accountable for his own decision to extend the guy to a massive contract.

I’d say those are the options.

just look at Thompsons drafts the last 5 years, total suckage, no WR's and practically every defensive pick was a bust, thats disfunction, McCarthy's schemes lacked the talent to play them, for years this draft and develop didn't produce starting talent, very few UFA help, Rodgers has carried this team every year, last year he got some added help with Jones, thats it, and Jones is the last impact player drafted on Offense, people that blame Rodgers for anything have a screw lose, without him and we don't make the play offs, Rodgers is still a top 5 or so QB, I really have to laugh at people, give him the receiver group that Mahomes has and no one would be talking this &%$@. we've $%@# over Rodgers for years.

Explain to me how it was Rodgers carrying the team on his back when the production was there from 2009 - 2017. Like he had to have a really good supporting cast on offense to be able to make that production right?

Because if that offensive supporting cast wasn't great...then how else do we explain the significant drop in production in 2018 and 2019? Because clearly Rodgers isn't the problem. So before then he had a sucky supporting cast....but 2018 and 2019 it was the suckiest of the suckiest supporting cast?

This argument makes no sense. You can't say he had such a horrific supporting cast and no offensive investment the better half of the decade. Because if he was able to produce with that...then why the hell can't he produce with what he has now? It should make no difference right?

[go pak go]

Lafleur made a point to mention how impressive it was that Love was accountable and took responsibility for his part in the down year, and his part in plays that went bad. He mentioned how much that meant to the team.

Wonder if that was a passive dig at 12.

If it were Gutey, maybe. I genuinely get the sense that MLF thinks Rodgers is really effing good. Maybe he's lying because he has to act that way, but when he talks about his love for Rodgers, it feels really genuine to me. Just like it did when he talked about Deguara.

Do you think MM sounded genuine when he talked about Brett Favre in 2007? Because at the time I truly did think he was genuine. But the more you hear back stuff...the team was clearly ready to move on with Rodgers.

[YoHoChecko]

If it were Gutey, maybe. I genuinely get the sense that MLF thinks Rodgers is really effing good. Maybe he's lying because he has to act that way, but when he talks about his love for Rodgers, it feels really genuine to me. Just like it did when he talked about Deguara.

Do you think MM sounded genuine when he talked about Brett Favre in 2007? Because at the time I truly did think he was genuine. But the more you hear back stuff...the team was clearly ready to move on with Rodgers.

2007? I don't remember what MM was saying about Favre. But the correct analogy would be 2005. And I believe at that time, the whole organization was sincere in maintaining it was still Favre's team, as he maintained the starting job for 3 more seasons and led the team to an NFC championship game in that time. He contemplated/threatened retirement each offseason in that time. I'm sure a lot changed in the building.

But honestly, I'm not much concerned about the past. I'm tired of everyone in packerland talking about TT and MM. They're gone and we're a 13-3 team coming off of an NFC championship game with a HC that should have been in the conversation for Coach of the Year and a GM who should have been in the conversation for Executive of the Year this past year. We just had a strange, disappointing draft. And I'm interested in seeing how things shake out with that. We're about to live through Favre-Rodgers round two; it sucked once. It'll likely suck again. And the first time it sucked even though it worked out great. I certainly don't want to relitigate the former while experiencing the latter.

[Drj820]

coaches are great at playing poker. Im not saying coach doesnt love rodgers, i think he is probably very thankful to have him...but coach speak is coach speak.

Yoop, I think Rodgers has been a machine most of his career. I think there have been plays he has made some very nice chicken salad out of chicken s***. But i do think all the talk about "Rodgers not trusting a receiver" or "a receiver needs to earn rodgers trust", in the end is a flaw against rodgers, not the WR. Brees sure can move the offense with all the no names not named michael thomas. Most elite QBs can. Rodgers demands he "sees the play in practice work" and then expects the WRs to be at the same spots or whatever. Ultimately being so machine like, and not being able to adjust to what you have, as opposed to the way a play should be...is a weakness.

So i think Rodgers was great when he was young and throwing to vets. I think Rodgers is great with a great WR like Adams that has spent years with Rodgers developing amazing chemistry. But the reality is it shouldnt take that many years for the highest paid QBs to figure out and adjust to what they have at WR. So do i think the org has let Rodgers down with not getting him competent WRs around Adams? Yes. Do I think Rodgers has some blame for not elevating the play of the scrubs like i think other elite QBs do? Yes.

[Drj820]

I think we had a pretty good round 6 and 7 of the draft

[go pak go]

If it were Gutey, maybe. I genuinely get the sense that MLF thinks Rodgers is really effing good. Maybe he's lying because he has to act that way, but when he talks about his love for Rodgers, it feels really genuine to me. Just like it did when he talked about Deguara.

Do you think MM sounded genuine when he talked about Brett Favre in 2007? Because at the time I truly did think he was genuine. But the more you hear back stuff...the team was clearly ready to move on with Rodgers.

2007? I don't remember what MM was saying about Favre. But the correct analogy would be 2005. And I believe at that time, the whole organization was sincere in maintaining it was still Favre's team, as he maintained the starting job for 3 more seasons and led the team to an NFC championship game in that time. He contemplated/threatened retirement each offseason in that time. I'm sure a lot changed in the building.

No I said 2007 for a reason. MM wasn't even a coach in 2005. Mike talked super positive about Brett all of 2007. Just as MLF will about Rodgers the next few years. But as you said, there will be a decision point at some time and will get more and more uncomfortable if Love continues to get better and better.

[Waldo]

In 2007 there was also the dynamic where Rodgers clearly outplayed Brett in camp and there were a lot of rumors (that got a lot louder after the season) that Aaron was the better QB behind the scenes, related better to the guys, and knew the playbook (and concepts) much better than Brett. That Rodgers was the starting QB 6 days a week.

[YoHoChecko]

I think we had a pretty good round 6 and 7 of the draft

I love the mix of steady eddies and high upside fliers in those rounds. I agree; solid use of late round picks. In 2 or 3 years, I'd be shocked if we don't even have a couple starters/rotational contributors from this group of 5 picks.

[YoHoChecko]

No I said 2007 for a reason. MM wasn't even a coach in 2005. Mike talked super positive about Brett all of 2007. Just as MLF will about Rodgers the next few years. But as you said, there will be a decision point at some time and will get more and more uncomfortable if Love continues to get better and better.

Yeah, that makes sense. But in 2007, Favre was having his career high completion percentage on the way to a 4,100 yard season and a 13-3 record with the help of 4 game-winning-drives that brought them to the NFC Championship Game. Why on earth would the head coach have anything negative to say about his play?

And also, that there is no corollary to 2005 only serves to make the matter moot.

[Freewheelingutey]

I find it funny that last season they tried to trade for Robby Anderson. This offseason they tried to trade for Deandre Hopkins. They add Funchess who is coming off a broken collarbone and played in 1 game last year, and a former Cfl player and all of the there is no need to draft a wr in a wr rich draft? You pretty much told everyone what you thought of our wrs when you made or didn't make these deals, yet all of the sudden they are good enough? You said you didn't want to reach for a wr when all of your draft picks were reaches? I don't get the logic!

[YoHoChecko]

I find it funny that last season they tried to trade for Robby Anderson. This offseason they tried to trade for Deandre Hopkins. They add Funchess who is coming off a broken collarbone and played in 1 game last year, and a former Cfl player and all of the there is no need to draft a wr in a wr rich draft? You pretty much told everyone what you thought of our wrs when you made or didn't make these deals, yet all of the sudden they are good enough? You said you didn't want to reach for a wr when all of your draft picks were reaches? I don't get the logic!

I don't love the value of our picks, but the notion of "all our picks being reaches" is ignoring that we do not have access to the Packers' board nor the rest of the NFL's board.

Gutey addressed this in some pretty decent detail for what you'd expect from GMs. And if you watched the commentary as the picks developed, you;d sort of understand.

Once Reagor, Jefferson, and Ayiuk went off the board, we pretty much all agreed that we had missed out on the first wave of 1st Round WRs.

In the second round, I think we were in pretty broad agreement that once Mims went, there weren't any true 2nd round WRs left, but we were hoping to reach for one.

In the third round, once Edwards and Bowden were off the board, we were all pretty sure we missed the run of value WRs there.

Gutey said there was an "early run" and once that went by, there were very few WRs left on the board who were mocked to make the team. We can't know whether he meant the run in the 20s, the run in the 2nd round, or the run in the 3rd round. But just because Robby Anderson and Deandre Hopkins were coveted doesn't mean that, say, Bryan Edwards is coveted.

Now, I've been critical of Gutey for not manipulating the board value to match the needs--to move back or up to get us in a position to take the needed positions. I agree with that critique. But I generally take him at his word, primarily because I somewhat agree with him, that the value fell poorly for us.

JUST before we traded up, when Ayiuk went at 25, I posted that this was close to a worst-case scenario for us in terms of value. That Queen was the only 1st rounder I had left for us, and that we would likely go before 30 (he went to the Ravens at 28).

I would have liked Queen after the move forward, and that's what I expected it to be for. But that wouldn't have solved the WR issue. I'd have preferred to take even a poorly-valued trade back from 30 to 35-40 and taken Shenault with good value, having our 4th and an additional one; even use one of those picks for Eason to groom. Then use 136 to pick either Amik Robinson or Shaq Quarterman or the like. That would've been fine by me.

But to assume that Gutey is lying about the WR need/value/draft board seems silly. Why on earth would Gutey try to add Hopkins and Anderson and then NOT be willing to draft one if the value was right? What do you THINK the answer is? The answer is obviously that he didn't value the available WRs when we picked. It makes sense that his explanation is honest.

[Drj820]

I find it funny that last season they tried to trade for Robby Anderson. This offseason they tried to trade for Deandre Hopkins. They add Funchess who is coming off a broken collarbone and played in 1 game last year, and a former Cfl player and all of the there is no need to draft a wr in a wr rich draft? You pretty much told everyone what you thought of our wrs when you made or didn't make these deals, yet all of the sudden they are good enough? You said you didn't want to reach for a wr when all of your draft picks were reaches? I don't get the logic!

I don't love the value of our picks, but the notion of "all our picks being reaches" is ignoring that we do not have access to the Packers' board nor the rest of the NFL's board.

Gutey addressed this in some pretty decent detail for what you'd expect from GMs. And if you watched the commentary as the picks developed, you;d sort of understand.

Once Reagor, Jefferson, and Ayiuk went off the board, we pretty much all agreed that we had missed out on the first wave of 1st Round WRs.

In the second round, I think we were in pretty broad agreement that once Mims went, there weren't any true 2nd round WRs left, but we were hoping to reach for one.

In the third round, once Edwards and Bowden were off the board, we were all pretty sure we missed the run of value WRs there.

Gutey said there was an "early run" and once that went by, there were very few WRs left on the board who were mocked to make the team. We can't know whether he meant the run in the 20s, the run in the 2nd round, or the run in the 3rd round. But just because Robby Anderson and Deandre Hopkins were coveted doesn't mean that, say, Bryan Edwards is coveted.

Now, I've been critical of Gutey for not manipulating the board value to match the needs--to move back or up to get us in a position to take the needed positions. I agree with that critique. But I generally take him at his word, primarily because I somewhat agree with him, that the value fell poorly for us.

JUST before we traded up, when Ayiuk went at 25, I posted that this was close to a worst-case scenario for us in terms of value. That Queen was the only 1st rounder I had left for us, and that we would likely go before 30 (he went to the Ravens at 28).

I would have liked Queen after the move forward, and that's what I expected it to be for. But that wouldn't have solved the WR issue. I'd have preferred to take even a poorly-valued trade back from 30 to 35-40 and taken Shenault with good value, having our 4th and an additional one; even use one of those picks for Eason to groom. Then use 136 to pick either Amik Robinson or Shaq Quarterman or the like. That would've been fine by me.

But to assume that Gutey is lying about the WR need/value/draft board seems silly. Why on earth would Gutey try to add Hopkins and Anderson and then NOT be willing to draft one if the value was right? What do you THINK the answer is? The answer is obviously that he didn't value the available WRs when we picked. It makes sense that his explanation is honest.

I love your idea of moving back, grabbing shenault, getting the extra pick, then going for Eason late. I think he would be a very good qb if given time to grow under a Lafleur.

I also would have preferred to move up just like we did and grab Queen.

Another answer to the Hopkins question, is that gutey didn’t really try very hard to get him. I mean the cards fleeced the Texans, Hopkins was obtainable at a cost. Considering the type of player he is, I would have accepted a pretty high cost. He’s an absolute game changer. Gutey might have put a call in, but my guess is he put about the same amount of effort into trading for nuk as he did moving up to get in position to grab a wr.

I think the main empty feeling from this draft is not necessarily who we did grab. (It’s some of that, but not mostly that). I think the biggest sting is none of us felt good about WR depth, this was a WR heavy draft and we left without one. But okay ya know it happens that’s fine.

But to then topple on the fact that we all know ILB is an issue. We were right there to grab one we would all be happy with, and again we only walk away with a pick I am very suspect of in the 5th. Allowing the ravens grab my draft darling queen.

All the logic can make sense, but having two identifiable needs, not really fixing them in FA, and leaving the draft without any type of fix...it stings. Simple.

[YoHoChecko]

I think the main empty feeling from this draft is not necessarily who we did grab. (It’s some of that, but not mostly that). I think the biggest sting is none of us felt good about WR depth, this was a WR heavy draft and we left without one. But okay ya know it happens that’s fine.

But to then topple on the fact that we all know ILB is an issue. We were right there to grab one we would all be happy with, and again we only walk away with a pick I am very suspect of in the 5th. Allowing the ravens grab my draft darling queen.

All the logic can make sense, but having two identifiable needs, not really fixing them in FA, and leaving the draft without any type of fix...it stings. Simple.

I agree with this. Though I will say, I feel GREAT about our WR depth. I just feel very underwhelmed by our WR2. If we had a better/faster player to slot in at that spot, then the slotWR and backups would be fairly ideal.

But yeah, that's been what I'm trying to say, really. I feel like the board as a whole are upset about who we DIDN'T select, and are taking it out on the players we drafted or the evaluation of those players. I am disappointed by who we did not select. But I am still pretty pleased by who we did select.

If everyone on the board lands there, I'll be very content with the complaints. But I can't stand to hear a lot of posters trashing Dillon or Deguara or Love's potential just because we still have other team needs.