Expectations for the 2021 season

[Drj820]

25 years ago doesn't do much informing. 10 years ago doesn't do much informing. Even 5 years ago doesn't do a heck of a lot of informing. Let's call a spade a spade, it is simply a way to drag up old gripes and narratives.

The Detroit Lions would like a word...

[Pckfn23]

25 years ago doesn't do much informing. 10 years ago doesn't do much informing. Even 5 years ago doesn't do a heck of a lot of informing. Let's call a spade a spade, it is simply a way to drag up old gripes and narratives.

so what, this is a forum where members discuss all things football, if you don't like the conversation no one is forcing you to partake of it.

I didn't say I didn't like the conversation. I essentially said the premise for this part of it is bogus.

[Pckfn23]

25 years ago doesn't do much informing. 10 years ago doesn't do much informing. Even 5 years ago doesn't do a heck of a lot of informing. Let's call a spade a spade, it is simply a way to drag up old gripes and narratives.

The Detroit Lions would like a word...

Good thing this is a Green Bay Packers forum and we aren't talking about the Detroit Lions.

[Yoop]

25 years ago doesn't do much informing. 10 years ago doesn't do much informing. Even 5 years ago doesn't do a heck of a lot of informing. Let's call a spade a spade, it is simply a way to drag up old gripes and narratives.

so what, this is a forum where members discuss all things football, if you don't like the conversation no one is forcing you to partake of it.

I didn't say I didn't like the conversation. I essentially said the premise for this part of it is bogus.

I don't think Ron who was going to retire in a year anyway getting into a ego fight with Holmgren over control of the team is bogus, his ego tantrum installed the inept Mike Sherman for 5 years when he retired a year later, that was a collasol screw up, eveb Bob Harlan hinted as much 5 years later when he hired Thompson

[Drj820]

25 years ago doesn't do much informing. 10 years ago doesn't do much informing. Even 5 years ago doesn't do a heck of a lot of informing. Let's call a spade a spade, it is simply a way to drag up old gripes and narratives.

The Detroit Lions would like a word...

Good thing this is a Green Bay Packers forum and we aren't talking about the Detroit Lions.

Excuse me, officer. Was just pointing out an example of how an organizations tradition and culture absolutely informs their future. Anything else we arent allowed to talk about?

[Pckfn23]

The Detroit Lions would like a word...

Good thing this is a Green Bay Packers forum and we aren't talking about the Detroit Lions.

Excuse me, officer. Was just pointing out an example of how an organizations tradition and culture absolutely informs their future. Anything else we arent allowed to talk about?

It was not said that you could or could not talk about a topic. It was said that the reasons for doing so are bogus.

In 2015 only 4 players currently on this roster were on that roster. There is not a single coach on the 2015 staff that is currently on the 2021 staff. The GM and most of the front office staff have changed over. To say that the reason one needs to talk about things from 5, 10, 15, 25 years ago is because of "tradition" and "culture" so that we can be informed about the 2021 team is completely bogus. There is very little we can glean from looking at the team 10+ years in the past that would inform us on today. Call it what it is, a reason to bring up old gripes.

[Drj820]

I think the 2021 have the roster to win the superbowl. I am a little gun shy after the last 3 NFCCG woes to feel wildly confident that this is the year, but it certainly could be.

[Pckfn23]

so what, this is a forum where members discuss all things football, if you don't like the conversation no one is forcing you to partake of it.

I didn't say I didn't like the conversation. I essentially said the premise for this part of it is bogus.

I don't think Ron who was going to retire in a year anyway getting into a ego fight with Holmgren over control of the team is bogus, his ego tantrum installed the inept Mike Sherman for 5 years when he retired a year later, that was a collasol screw up, eveb Bob Harlan hinted as much 5 years later when he hired Thompson

What or who the hell are you even addressing? Again none of that matters to today.

[go pak go]

I think you remember the departing of Wolf wrong, first was the ego battle with Mike Holmgren over Mikes desire to be both coach and GM, and both Ron and Bob Harlan said we'd never have one guy do both jobs again, then Mike decided to take the Seattle job even before we'd finished the season, and naturally it leaked to the media and became a &%$@ storm, which obviously in even a small way affected our game with the Bronco's which we lost because we couldn't stop the run.

soon after both Harlan and Wolf gave both positions to Mike Sherman, who was a excellent OL coach, but sucked as both a HC and GM, yet he kept both titles till finally fired as GM and a year later as coach, he led to the decline of Favre the QB.

So this is supposed to somehow make Ron Wolf's legacy better than TT's and Gute's like I questioned in my suggested post?

I'm confused.

no, just clarifying some things, and No it doesn't make Ron better, what it does do is expose the hypocricy of both Bob and Ron saying one thing to Holmgren, and then doing the opposite 2 years later concerning Mike Sherman, I mean seriously, who here with the value of hindsight would chose Sherman to have total control of football operations over the much more qualified Holmgren, not me thats for sure.

and as good as the some of those 5 defenses where only 09 and 10 where top ten defenses according to league rankings, 014 was close, in fact PFF gave the secondary great reviews, but it was still ranked in the teens over all.

Wolf was a excellent GM, so was Ted in his early years, as has been Guty, don't know why you seem to think I was lifting one above another.

Because you went on a tangent rant about Ron Wolf and his 1998 backstory that was completely irrelevant to my post. So I was super confused why you replied to my post about defending Ron Wolf's backstory. The fact is Wolf without Holmgren sucked. His draft picks sucked. His FA signings sucked. And his coaching/GM picks sucked from 1998 until Ted came into town.

But yes. 2009 and 2010 were top 5 defenses. Elite level.

2014 wasn't top 10 in yards but they were absolutely a top 10/top 5 level defense in the 2nd half of the season when it mattered most. Including the postseason where they were phenomenal. (I mean if you are going to have the caveat of the 2009 defense being top 5 but bad in the post season, then you need to do the same thing for the 2014 defense who was elite in the playoffs when we needed them most)

The 2019 and 2020 defenses were in that 6th to 12th range in the major categories like yards, points, etc. Stuff that matters.

I think having 5 seasons out of 12 with defenses that were good enough to win a championship isn't terrible. It's hard to consistently field a top defense.

I'm not gonna say the Packers have been league best at fielding championship level teams, but I will say they are right in line with the rest of the league's bests over the last 14 seasons (if we include 2007).

[Yoop]

So this is supposed to somehow make Ron Wolf's legacy better than TT's and Gute's like I questioned in my suggested post?

I'm confused.

no, just clarifying some things, and No it doesn't make Ron better, what it does do is expose the hypocricy of both Bob and Ron saying one thing to Holmgren, and then doing the opposite 2 years later concerning Mike Sherman, I mean seriously, who here with the value of hindsight would chose Sherman to have total control of football operations over the much more qualified Holmgren, not me thats for sure.

and as good as the some of those 5 defenses where only 09 and 10 where top ten defenses according to league rankings, 014 was close, in fact PFF gave the secondary great reviews, but it was still ranked in the teens over all.

Wolf was a excellent GM, so was Ted in his early years, as has been Guty, don't know why you seem to think I was lifting one above another.

Because you went on a tangent rant about Ron Wolf and his 1998 backstory that was completely irrelevant to my post. So I was super confused why you replied to my post about defending Ron Wolf's backstory. The fact is Wolf without Holmgren sucked. His draft picks sucked. His FA signings sucked. And his coaching/GM picks sucked from 1998 until Ted came into town.

But yes. 2009 and 2010 were top 5 defenses. Elite level.

2014 wasn't top 10 in yards but they were absolutely a top 10/top 5 level defense in the 2nd half of the season when it mattered most. Including the postseason where they were phenomenal. (I mean if you are going to have the caveat of the 2009 defense being top 5 but bad in the post season, then you need to do the same thing for the 2014 defense who was elite in the playoffs when we needed them most)

The 2019 and 2020 defenses were in that 6th to 12th range in the major categories like yards, points, etc. Stuff that matters.

I think having 5 seasons out of 12 with defenses that were good enough to win a championship isn't terrible. It's hard to consistently field a top defense.

I'm not gonna say the Packers have been league best at fielding championship level teams, but I will say they are right in line with the rest of the league's bests over the last 14 seasons (if we include 2007).

for most of the teens our defenses have sucked, and mostly because of poor talent at to many positions, some of it due to injury, the rest do to draft misses and lack of UFA additions, Ted refused to over spend on those players which a GM has to do to aquire that talent, as good as Rodgers was at getting us a lead, our defenses couldn't keep it, it's the biggest reason we lost PO games.

how long have I preached that it's harder to build and retain a great defense versus offense? eons, but no one believes me, after all I'am just a old foolish Packer fan

[RingoCStarrQB]

no, just clarifying some things, and No it doesn't make Ron better, what it does do is expose the hypocricy of both Bob and Ron saying one thing to Holmgren, and then doing the opposite 2 years later concerning Mike Sherman, I mean seriously, who here with the value of hindsight would chose Sherman to have total control of football operations over the much more qualified Holmgren, not me thats for sure.

and as good as the some of those 5 defenses where only 09 and 10 where top ten defenses according to league rankings, 014 was close, in fact PFF gave the secondary great reviews, but it was still ranked in the teens over all.

Wolf was a excellent GM, so was Ted in his early years, as has been Guty, don't know why you seem to think I was lifting one above another.

Because you went on a tangent rant about Ron Wolf and his 1998 backstory that was completely irrelevant to my post. So I was super confused why you replied to my post about defending Ron Wolf's backstory. The fact is Wolf without Holmgren sucked. His draft picks sucked. His FA signings sucked. And his coaching/GM picks sucked from 1998 until Ted came into town.

But yes. 2009 and 2010 were top 5 defenses. Elite level.

2014 wasn't top 10 in yards but they were absolutely a top 10/top 5 level defense in the 2nd half of the season when it mattered most. Including the postseason where they were phenomenal. (I mean if you are going to have the caveat of the 2009 defense being top 5 but bad in the post season, then you need to do the same thing for the 2014 defense who was elite in the playoffs when we needed them most)

The 2019 and 2020 defenses were in that 6th to 12th range in the major categories like yards, points, etc. Stuff that matters.

I think having 5 seasons out of 12 with defenses that were good enough to win a championship isn't terrible. It's hard to consistently field a top defense.

I'm not gonna say the Packers have been league best at fielding championship level teams, but I will say they are right in line with the rest of the league's bests over the last 14 seasons (if we include 2007).

for most of the teens our defenses have sucked, and mostly because of poor talent at to many positions, some of it due to injury, the rest do to draft misses and lack of UFA additions, Ted refused to over spend on those players which a GM has to do to aquire that talent, as good as Rodgers was at getting us a lead, our defenses couldn't keep it, it's the biggest reason we lost PO games.

how long have I preached that it's harder to build and retain a great defense versus offense? eons, but no one believes me, after all I'am just a old foolish Packer fan

I totally believe you Yoop. Remember the early 1980s Packers defenses with All Pros at tight end (Coffman) and receiver(s) (Jefferson and Lofton) with Lynn Dickey wearing #12? The Packers D during that era was less than adequate....won a playoff game during the strike shortened 1982 season and that was it.
Remember when we thought Tim Harris was our best hope for a sack? Too bad Ezra Johnson didn't have more help up front. Cumby, Noble, Holland, Dorsey, etc. Don't get me started on the DBs either. Sure we had Mark Lee, Dave Brown, Chuck Cecil, Tom Flynn....whereby only Lee was consistent over many seasons. It gets fuzzy when trying to recall which years Elbert Watts and Steve Luke were there. Lest we not forget Mossy Cade, Jerry Boyarsky. Donnie Humphrey, Charles Martin, Estus Hood, .....

[Yoop]

Because you went on a tangent rant about Ron Wolf and his 1998 backstory that was completely irrelevant to my post. So I was super confused why you replied to my post about defending Ron Wolf's backstory. The fact is Wolf without Holmgren sucked. His draft picks sucked. His FA signings sucked. And his coaching/GM picks sucked from 1998 until Ted came into town.

But yes. 2009 and 2010 were top 5 defenses. Elite level.

2014 wasn't top 10 in yards but they were absolutely a top 10/top 5 level defense in the 2nd half of the season when it mattered most. Including the postseason where they were phenomenal. (I mean if you are going to have the caveat of the 2009 defense being top 5 but bad in the post season, then you need to do the same thing for the 2014 defense who was elite in the playoffs when we needed them most)

The 2019 and 2020 defenses were in that 6th to 12th range in the major categories like yards, points, etc. Stuff that matters.

I think having 5 seasons out of 12 with defenses that were good enough to win a championship isn't terrible. It's hard to consistently field a top defense.

I'm not gonna say the Packers have been league best at fielding championship level teams, but I will say they are right in line with the rest of the league's bests over the last 14 seasons (if we include 2007).

for most of the teens our defenses have sucked, and mostly because of poor talent at to many positions, some of it due to injury, the rest do to draft misses and lack of UFA additions, Ted refused to over spend on those players which a GM has to do to aquire that talent, as good as Rodgers was at getting us a lead, our defenses couldn't keep it, it's the biggest reason we lost PO games.

how long have I preached that it's harder to build and retain a great defense versus offense? eons, but no one believes me, after all I'am just a old foolish Packer fan

I totally believe you Yoop. Remember the early 1980s Packers defenses with All Pros at tight end (Coffman) and receiver(s) (Jefferson and Lofton) with Lynn Dickey wearing #12? The Packers D during that era was less than adequate....won a playoff game during the strike shortened 1982 season and that was it.
Remember when we thought Tim Harris was our best hope for a sack? Too bad Ezra Johnson didn't have more help up front. Cumby, Noble, Holland, Dorsey, etc. Don't get me started on the DBs either. Sure we had Mark Lee, Dave Brown, Chuck Cecil, Tom Flynn....whereby only Lee was consistent over many seasons. It gets fuzzy when trying to recall which years Elbert Watts and Steve Luke were there. Lest we not forget Mossy Cade, Jerry Boyarsky. Donnie Humphrey, Charles Martin, Estus Hood, .....

so jealous of your great memory Ringo

we've always had a few great players, rarely ever enough of em at one time though, imo it's hard to cover for weak defensive positions, play callers will expose them and attack it, and it's almost unstoppable, so not only does a team need all 11 to be pretty dang good, it also needs some good backups to cover for dinged up starters.

imo right now we are as close to complete on defense as we have been for a decade, with some decent backups to boot, hopefully they can help the offense complete the mission

[salmar80]

Good thing this is a Green Bay Packers forum and we aren't talking about the Detroit Lions.

Excuse me, officer. Was just pointing out an example of how an organizations tradition and culture absolutely informs their future. Anything else we arent allowed to talk about?

It was not said that you could or could not talk about a topic. It was said that the reasons for doing so are bogus.

In 2015 only 4 players currently on this roster were on that roster. There is not a single coach on the 2015 staff that is currently on the 2021 staff. The GM and most of the front office staff have changed over. To say that the reason one needs to talk about things from 5, 10, 15, 25 years ago is because of "tradition" and "culture" so that we can be informed about the 2021 team is completely bogus. There is very little we can glean from looking at the team 10+ years in the past that would inform us on today. Call it what it is, a reason to bring up old gripes.

Funnily, I think there ARE organizational and historic benefits that the Packers have, but not the ones mentioned.

The biggest organizational benefits we have are a) that we have no erratic/eccentric/irrational owner, and b) we don't need to sell tickets to games. Both are due to history and it should be celebrated. Impact on any one year's team varies due to circumstance, but overall we have an advantage over most of the league. There's no one billionaire weirdo having his way with knee-jerk reactions that can put the football side into disarray for ages. And there's way less pressure to please the fans. Our GM can do unpopular moves when he feels it's good for the team. This allows the GM to do the best he can, not "the best popular thing that also pleases the owner". In GM world that must be great, only one step below the heaven of "just do whatever [mention]lupedafiasco[/mention] wants".

------

As a foreigner, I'm getting a real schooling at the finer points of what "to expect" can mean for different native speakers of English in the US... It's wild.

For me, expecting something more than winning the SB would be beyond me. But it seems that for a large portion of our posters, just winning the SB would not meet their expectations. We'd either have to be the best team ever, or to at least win the SB with style points to spare.

That's just too arrogant for me, personally. Be honest, if we won this year's Super Bowl by just a late figgy, after a real close contest, would you REALLY be disappointed with the Packers 2021 season? But then, whatever floats your boat.

Here's a Finnish comedian, speaking an accent much like mine, learning about the nuances of another English term:

[Pckfn23]

Excuse me, officer. Was just pointing out an example of how an organizations tradition and culture absolutely informs their future. Anything else we arent allowed to talk about?

It was not said that you could or could not talk about a topic. It was said that the reasons for doing so are bogus.

In 2015 only 4 players currently on this roster were on that roster. There is not a single coach on the 2015 staff that is currently on the 2021 staff. The GM and most of the front office staff have changed over. To say that the reason one needs to talk about things from 5, 10, 15, 25 years ago is because of "tradition" and "culture" so that we can be informed about the 2021 team is completely bogus. There is very little we can glean from looking at the team 10+ years in the past that would inform us on today. Call it what it is, a reason to bring up old gripes.

Funnily, I think there ARE organizational and historic benefits that the Packers have, but not the ones mentioned.

The biggest organizational benefits we have are a) that we have no erratic/eccentric/irrational owner, and b) we don't need to sell tickets to games. Both are due to history and it should be celebrated. Impact on any one year's team varies due to circumstance, but overall we have an advantage over most of the league. There's no one billionaire weirdo having his way with knee-jerk reactions that can put the football side into disarray for ages. And there's way less pressure to please the fans. Our GM can do unpopular moves when he feels it's good for the team. This allows the GM to do the best he can, not "the best popular thing that also pleases the owner". In GM world that must be great, only one step below the heaven of "just do whatever @lupedafiasco wants".

100% and I thought about the owner one as well, didn't think about the ticket selling variable. It is interesting that those were not the benefits mentioned that would help us form expectations for 2021. Also, both variables have been constant for at least the last 61 years, looking back at Packer teams from the 90's, 00's and 10's, wouldn't give us much. So glad the organization is public.

[salmar80]

It was not said that you could or could not talk about a topic. It was said that the reasons for doing so are bogus.

In 2015 only 4 players currently on this roster were on that roster. There is not a single coach on the 2015 staff that is currently on the 2021 staff. The GM and most of the front office staff have changed over. To say that the reason one needs to talk about things from 5, 10, 15, 25 years ago is because of "tradition" and "culture" so that we can be informed about the 2021 team is completely bogus. There is very little we can glean from looking at the team 10+ years in the past that would inform us on today. Call it what it is, a reason to bring up old gripes.

Funnily, I think there ARE organizational and historic benefits that the Packers have, but not the ones mentioned.

The biggest organizational benefits we have are a) that we have no erratic/eccentric/irrational owner, and b) we don't need to sell tickets to games. Both are due to history and it should be celebrated. Impact on any one year's team varies due to circumstance, but overall we have an advantage over most of the league. There's no one billionaire weirdo having his way with knee-jerk reactions that can put the football side into disarray for ages. And there's way less pressure to please the fans. Our GM can do unpopular moves when he feels it's good for the team. This allows the GM to do the best he can, not "the best popular thing that also pleases the owner". In GM world that must be great, only one step below the heaven of "just do whatever @lupedafiasco wants".

100% and I thought about the owner one as well, didn't think about the ticket selling variable. It is interesting that those were not the benefits mentioned that would help us form expectations for 2021. Also, both variables have been constant for at least the last 61 years, looking back at Packer teams from the 90's, 00's and 10's, wouldn't give us much. So glad the organization is public.

I mean, some players may buy into the Packers history -narrative, and actually want to become a part of that. But I'd imagine the vast majority of 20-something-year-olds just want to build their own careers, to focus on their craft and to get paid.

If they get inspiration from past players and things, great. If they focus on today and the future, without thinking about the past at all, great. As long as they're focused at becoming the best they can be. No one can be forced to become a historian. But with the Packers, at least there's the option.

[Yoop]

nothing from the past affects the present, the prior conversation had nothing to do with that, except we wouldn't want to repeat things we did wrong, which I pointed out about Ron Wolf and Mike Holmgren which did end badly.

we did see something resembling that when Murphy took control and demoted Ted, and appointed himself control over our present GM, however it seems as though we are now moving past that and the chain of command is going back to normal.

I have to say I'am glad Murphy finally stepped in and did something, and we weren't controlled by a bunch of city big wigs who allowed the team to flounder for 2 decades, sure glad we didn't repeat that fiasco.

I'am sure these are some of the things DR J was referring too, that are learning tools the FO's damn sure needs to pay attention to, which obviously they have.

why this would be a frowned on conversation in a thread talking about the future is any ones guess.

and as I said prior, if a person for any reason doesn't like the conversation, then go start one ya do like, or simply go twiddle your thumbs some where else, real simple.

thanks though for the comedy Sal, The Packers are the s h i t of the NFL

[Pckfn23]

Point missed, yet again.

[German_Panzer]

I have my doubts. Rodgers could not carry us last season, why this one? The Last Dance theme is ridiculous if you compare it with its original that had a 6-time champ involved.

[Cdragon]

Excuse me, officer. Was just pointing out an example of how an organizations tradition and culture absolutely informs their future. Anything else we arent allowed to talk about?

It was not said that you could or could not talk about a topic. It was said that the reasons for doing so are bogus.

In 2015 only 4 players currently on this roster were on that roster. There is not a single coach on the 2015 staff that is currently on the 2021 staff. The GM and most of the front office staff have changed over. To say that the reason one needs to talk about things from 5, 10, 15, 25 years ago is because of "tradition" and "culture" so that we can be informed about the 2021 team is completely bogus. There is very little we can glean from looking at the team 10+ years in the past that would inform us on today. Call it what it is, a reason to bring up old gripes.

Funnily, I think there ARE organizational and historic benefits that the Packers have, but not the ones mentioned.

The biggest organizational benefits we have are a) that we have no erratic/eccentric/irrational owner, and b) we don't need to sell tickets to games. Both are due to history and it should be celebrated. Impact on any one year's team varies due to circumstance, but overall we have an advantage over most of the league. There's no one billionaire weirdo having his way with knee-jerk reactions that can put the football side into disarray for ages. And there's way less pressure to please the fans. Our GM can do unpopular moves when he feels it's good for the team. This allows the GM to do the best he can, not "the best popular thing that also pleases the owner". In GM world that must be great, only one step below the heaven of "just do whatever @lupedafiasco wants".

------

As a foreigner, I'm getting a real schooling at the finer points of what "to expect" can mean for different native speakers of English in the US... It's wild.

For me, expecting something more than winning the SB would be beyond me. But it seems that for a large portion of our posters, just winning the SB would not meet their expectations. We'd either have to be the best team ever, or to at least win the SB with style points to spare.

That's just too arrogant for me, personally. Be honest, if we won this year's Super Bowl by just a late figgy, after a real close contest, would you REALLY be disappointed with the Packers 2021 season? But then, whatever floats your boat.

Here's a Finnish comedian, speaking an accent much like mine, learning about the nuances of another English term:

"I expect this," doesn't address what I'd be satisfied with. I think we have a great team but no team this year is close to the greatest team of all time. We have the reigning MVP QB with better weapons than last year. I have hope in a more aggressive DC and a couple of new pieces. I think at the end of the journey we will be the best team left standing. If we are the best team at the end then I expect to run away with it all. A win is a win no matter how ugly and I'd be more than satisfied with a 14th championship no matter how it comes. A back door run like in 2010 is more dramatic. I'll take that! Beating a team you have no chance against is wonderful, but there isn't a team out there at this point we can't beat. So I expect to have a nice cake walk to the because we are the best and will not shoot ourselves in both feet this time.

[RingoCStarrQB]

for most of the teens our defenses have sucked, and mostly because of poor talent at to many positions, some of it due to injury, the rest do to draft misses and lack of UFA additions, Ted refused to over spend on those players which a GM has to do to aquire that talent, as good as Rodgers was at getting us a lead, our defenses couldn't keep it, it's the biggest reason we lost PO games.

how long have I preached that it's harder to build and retain a great defense versus offense? eons, but no one believes me, after all I'am just a old foolish Packer fan

I totally believe you Yoop. Remember the early 1980s Packers defenses with All Pros at tight end (Coffman) and receiver(s) (Jefferson and Lofton) with Lynn Dickey wearing #12? The Packers D during that era was less than adequate....won a playoff game during the strike shortened 1982 season and that was it.
Remember when we thought Tim Harris was our best hope for a sack? Too bad Ezra Johnson didn't have more help up front. Cumby, Noble, Holland, Dorsey, etc. Don't get me started on the DBs either. Sure we had Mark Lee, Dave Brown, Chuck Cecil, Tom Flynn....whereby only Lee was consistent over many seasons. It gets fuzzy when trying to recall which years Elbert Watts and Steve Luke were there. Lest we not forget Mossy Cade, Jerry Boyarsky. Donnie Humphrey, Charles Martin, Estus Hood, .....

so jealous of your great memory Ringo

we've always had a few great players, rarely ever enough of em at one time though, imo it's hard to cover for weak defensive positions, play callers will expose them and attack it, and it's almost unstoppable, so not only does a team need all 11 to be pretty dang good, it also needs some good backups to cover for dinged up starters.

imo right now we are as close to complete on defense as we have been for a decade, with some decent backups to boot, hopefully they can help the offense complete the mission

Let's not forget Blaise Winter either.