Round 3 (94) - Josiah Deguara, TE Cincinnati

[Drj820]

It will be interesting to see how he shapes out. I have been watching the highlights of him, and trying to be fair. He does seem like a quality football player, but he also seems like someone who clearly and obviously would have been available much later in the draft. I suppose he is the swiss army knife thats been described, but that seems to be one of his only strengths for the nfl game. As in, hes versatile and can do a lot of things most likely decent. He looks like he can be a decent (better than Vitale) run blocker. He seems to be able to get behind zone coverages, while not sure how he could beat many in man. My early judgement declares he will be useful, but there are others like him. Not sure how dangerous he will be in the nfl game, everything he did that looked good against schools cincinatti plays...will be much tougher to do in the NFL. But i suppose scheme can help him tremendously. That said, seems like a great kid who is ready to learn and might have just scratched the surface on his full potential.

[YoHoChecko]

It will be interesting to see how he shapes out. I have been watching the highlights of him, and trying to be fair. He does seem like a quality football player, but he also seems like someone who clearly and obviously would have been available much later in the draft. I suppose he is the swiss army knife thats been described, but that seems to be one of his only strengths for the nfl game. As in, hes versatile and can do a lot of things most likely decent. He looks like he can be a decent (better than Vitale) run blocker. He seems to be able to get behind zone coverages, while not sure how he could beat many in man. My early judgement declares he will be useful, but there are others like him. Not sure how dangerous he will be in the nfl game, everything he did that looked good against schools cincinatti plays...will be much tougher to do in the NFL. But i suppose scheme can help him tremendously. That said, seems like a great kid who is ready to learn and might have just scratched the surface on his full potential.

No, I think that's right. I mean, he was on my Top Five Guys I Want To Add over draft weekend, but even I referred to him as a 5th or 6th rounder, and predicted him in the 7th in the draft contest. That was going off of what I had read of his draft stock, and obviously, the Packers felt quite differently. Gutey said he didn't feel he could have gotten any of the guys he took later (I think in his Day Two end conference call).

I don't know that I see a special player. He can be used LIKE Delanie Walker, but Walker ran a 4.5 and was quicker, in addition to being that versatile player who could line up anywhere and be a pass catching FB or a blocking TE and everything in between.

If he becomes Kyle Juscyk, who ran the same speed, is similarly-sized, but had better agility drills and more experience as a pure FB, that's still a guy who sees the field on about 1/3 of the snaps.

Who was that FB/TE for the Vikings who played for a while? A very useful player with a solidly lengthy NFL career. I hope Deguara is at least that, but at least a slightly rich man's version of that.

I think it is totally fine to question the value of this pick, or others. I care about value a lot during the draft process. In the long run, it matters more who you have on your team than how you got them. And I am glad to have Deguara. But I totally understand questioning the value.

[NCF]

That is awesome.

[YoHoChecko]

Let's see a comparison here. This TE was a traditional Y off:
Height: 6044
Weight: 243
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.82
40 Yard Dash (HH): 4.83
20 Yard (ET): 2.79
20 Yard (HH): 2.80
10 Yard (ET): 1.66
10 Yard (HH): 1.65
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20
Vertical Jump: 27 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'09"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.38
3-Cone Drill: 7.15

Hmmmm, I want to guess... Jermichael Finley?

[Pckfn23]

Bingo!

This is Josiah Deguara:
Height: 6023
Weight: 242
40 Yard Dash (ET): 4.72
40 Yard Dash (HH): 4.65
20 Yard (ET): 2.77
20 Yard (HH): 2.65
10 Yard (ET): 1.68
10 Yard (HH): 1.59
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 25
Vertical Jump: 35 1/2
Broad Jump: 09'07"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.35
3-Cone Drill: 7.15

The fun part I see is that he will be a traditional FB, a Y(traditional TE), a Y off (split TE), a wing, a wing motioning back to a FB. I think it will be fun to watch how LeFleur gets creative with him.

[YoHoChecko]

Here is a random assortment of athletic testing comps that I came up with, coded with a green-yellow-red tint for being toward the top, middle, or bottom of this particular group of testers. Given that all of these were successful NFL players to varying degrees for varying but similar roles (FB/H-Back/TE players), I'm pretty sure most of these marks would be better than the norm for the overall position, but the colors seemed useful for differentiating within the group:

image.png (22.59 KiB) Viewed 656 times

Worth noting that the times for Juszczyk, Hernandez, and DiMarco were Pro Day times, not combine times.

[Pckfn23]

As far as value, I believe we took him in the third because we thought there was no way we could get him in the 5th. I could see why we believed that. Still not good value, but I understand the reasoning.

[Drj820]

Because Josiah comped to Vitale, i guess this is an alright thread to mention this.

All camp last year we heard of all the things Vitale was involved in. During the season for a while we saw plays that didnt connect, but looked oh so close. Then it seemed he had a little nagging knee injury, and even when he was healthy he didnt come back in and play much.

By the end of the season Sternberger was actually taking his reps in the back field.

First point would be that i imagine he is drafted to do what Stern was asked to do from the backfield, while stern can return to traditional TE spot.

Second point would be i wonder what it was about Vitale that made Lefleur want to be done with him. Maybe Josiah is a much better blocker? Vitale was quickly scooped up by the Pats, so its not like he is unwanted league wide.

Just wonder what made Lefleur decide he was not going to be the guy to use in his system (seems like hed be a great fit), and then why Josiah is that guy. Maybe its just the run blocking. But i do think we can guess Josiahs role for the Packers, based off of what Sternberger did during his time replacing Vitale, while Stern returns to traditional TE.

[YoHoChecko]

First point would be that i imagine he is drafted to do what Stern was asked to do from the backfield, while stern can return to traditional TE spot.

Second point would be i wonder what it was about Vitale that made Lefleur want to be done with him. Maybe Josiah is a much better blocker? Vitale was quickly scooped up by the Pats, so its not like he is unwanted league wide.

Just wonder what made Lefleur decide he was not going to be the guy to use in his system (seems like hed be a great fit), and then why Josiah is that guy. Maybe its just the run blocking. But i do think we can guess Josiahs role for the Packers, based off of what Sternberger did during his time replacing Vitale, while Stern returns to traditional TE.

I think Vitale ended up being a pretty bad lead blocker. I still really liked him in the passing game and thought he was under-utilized there, but maybe it was just because his blocking troubles kept him off the field. Shockingly, when I was researching team speed, Davvy Vitale cracked the weekly top-20 fastest-recorded ball-carriers for one week last season, so he definitely had a weapon aspect to him. If I added him to the chart above, he'd look a lot more like Delanie Walker or Aaron Hernandez than Patrick DiMarco. He had speed and athleticism. I just think he isn't a good blocker. Maybe he should be used more as a TE/H-Back than FB and go to an offensive system in which the FB role isn't used as frequently as we use it (which is virtually every system except for ours). Try to be more of an Irv Smith....

...Or maybe Vitale is just a better athlete than FB player, and that's why he was a late 6th round pick and has been on a handful of teams. I don't get that vibe from Deguara, whose tape shows a guy who is tough and gritty on the field and loves the game and knows how to play it.

I agree completely that Deguara is drafted to take Sterny out of some of the backfield stuff and make him the more traditional TE (though we've always moved TEs around a little).

I'd definitely expect Josiah to do what Vitale did, and take that aspect of Sternberger's snaps, and log about 250 snaps this year.

[Pckfn23]

[British]

Oh man. This is gold.

[British]

He could do a lot worse than Kelce as a guy to help him through his pro career. (He had more yards and TDs in college than him too)

[British]

If y'all get the chance, find the audio of MLF being asked about the Deguara pick. The sincerity when he said "I love Josiah" was intense. He is excited about this football player. The Packers actually used a clip of him in a team meeting last year as an example of hustle and never giving up on a play. The versatility and ability to line up in different formations with the same personnel packages was a huge selling point. When asked if he would be used like Juscyck, he said yes, they'll emulate some of that.

Yeah the dude has a serious man crush on Josiah. I think he is just so jealous of Kyle Shanahan too of being able to utilize that H back role. It was clear they wanted to move on pretty quick from Vitale.

That he does.

But people are hung up on Juscyck at the model of this role. He is not. He is not a particularly good receiver. Delanie Walker and Aaron Hernandez are much more indicative of what a receiving H back can do.

These guys aren't like WR's, having to release against press and with CB's in tight coverage, and a S bracket for the elites. They work instead primarily in zone coverage, looking for soft spots. And when they start beating you a lot and defenders start adjusting their location in zones to ease the pain, that's when the throwing lanes open up for the WRs.

Good TE's beat you with their smarts often. Jason Witten (esp later in his career) wasn't explosive, he didn't have game breaking speed, he wasn't uncoverable in M2M, no, he knew where the soft spots were and got himself there, and shredded teams that way. That's the type of player Josiah is (and likely one of of the reasons MLF has such a huge crush on him). That's who Cobb used to be.

People are really underselling what Josiah can bring to the passing game.

And this team speed nonsense is just that. Nonsense. How many times did #12 miss MVS last year because he badly underthrew him. None of GB's WR's but Lazard and Allison were slow. Allison is gone, and Lazard plays big man ball. EQSB, MVS, and Kumerow have wheels. #12's constant misses deep, usually too short, is one of the reasons many started seeing serious decline, as he didn't used to miss those. GB's receivers are if anything than FASTEST group AR has had, which also is likely a culprit. Aaron has never had a 4.3x receiver like MVS (cept for the PS god that AR and MM hated a few years back).

Lots of Delanie Walker comps here. LaFleur worked with DW in Tennessee. Wonder if he brings him in as a free agent. Can't imagine he's too expensive at this point.

[Pckfn23]

For those in the know, what is the difference between Josiah Deguara and say Thaddeus Moss?

[Foosball]

Second point would be i wonder what it was about Vitale that made Lefleur want to be done with him. Maybe Josiah is a much better blocker? Vitale was quickly scooped up by the Pats, so its not like he is unwanted league wide.

Just wonder what made Lefleur decide he was not going to be the guy to use in his system (seems like hed be a great fit), and then why Josiah is that guy. Maybe its just the run blocking. But i do think we can guess Josiahs role for the Packers, based off of what Sternberger did during his time replacing Vitale, while Stern returns to traditional TE.

To me I think it just came to numbers. If you have one of your TEs perform as well or better than Vitale, then you let Vitale go and free up a roster spot. Coaches and GMs have to be creative on how they fill their rosters. They only have 53 spots. Unless that's changed this year due to the CBA.

[Waldo]

People do have to remember that the H back role in the modern sense was basically invented by Shanahan; Shannon Sharpe was the original modern H back.

That is ultimately what Shanahan tree coaches are looking for out of the position.

[YoHoChecko]

For those in the know, what is the difference between Josiah Deguara and say Thaddeus Moss?

Moss doesn't like to block as much; Deguara is grittier

If we're talking about who each probably WANTS to be like, and we're limiting ourselves to shorter TEs... I'd say Thaddeus Moss probably WANTS to be more of a Jordan Reed, Irv Smith, Evan Engram type. He wants to be moved around the formation to get him in space and to get the ball.

I think Deguara, while he likes having the ball of course, too, enjoys moving humans, enjoys doing the dirty work. He loves that he can and does line up as a FB, but he can and does line up as a slot receiver. (He said that exactly, actually). I think he'd love to be Delanie Walker or non-CTE Aaron Hernandez.

It's not as much about the athletic ability and body type for the difference, it's more the kind of player and what he does well on the football field and the attitude that separates them.

They probably athleticism but their football skills point to different usages. Moss didn't work out at the combine, so it's really tough to know what you're getting there.

This is my take. There's nothing wrong with a Thaddeus Moss type. I don't mean it as disrespect in either direction.

[Pckfn23]

From everything I have read, Moss loves blocking:
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/thaddeus- ... 4d97cdc93c

Strengths
Willing to get grimy as a run blocker
Treats run blocking with conviction
Rolls hips into base blocks and strains to sustain

https://draftwire.usatoday.com/2020/03/ ... ng-report/

If you are looking for a blocking tight end then Moss should be atop the list for your NFL team. Not just a chip guy before getting into his route, Moss can take on defenders one on one in passing sets. As a run blocker, he brings physicality and animosity. Great blocker on the edge, running backs will love running behind Moss.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/player/thad ... zQVlXI1t0D

Power at POA - Absolute bruiser who beats up the opposition up front. Heavy hands, long arms and a dense frame with strong core have yielded terrific results collapsing down vs. defensive ends. He's found success folding across the set as a lead blocker on interior runs, delivering booming hits to the MIKE when pressing through POA.

Competitive Toughness - Love what he brings from a physicality perspective. He's a true bully who will wear out defenders on the edge and can be a tone setter on the edge in the run game.

Gets after it as a blocker and has the power and technique to move bodies at the line of scrimmage. Deliberate about getting his hands fit, unlocking his hips and accelerating his feet. An asset blocking on the move and in bunch sets.

I am beginning to question your in the know status Yoho!

[YoHoChecko]

I am beginning to question your in the know status Yoho!

OHNO! haha

That surprises me! To be honest I didn't look a lot at Thaddeus Moss. Liked him in the college playoffs a lot, and definitely expected him to get drafted... but huh. I guess I didn't read up on him as much and played more off of assumptions from the playoff games. I wonder why I didn't dig more, in retrospect. Hopefully the Redskins enjoy him.

[Pckfn23]

I am beginning to question your in the know status Yoho!

OHNO! haha

That surprises me! To be honest I didn't look a lot at Thaddeus Moss. Liked him in the college playoffs a lot, and definitely expected him to get drafted... but huh. I guess I didn't read up on him as much and played more off of assumptions from the playoff games. I wonder why I didn't dig more, in retrospect. Hopefully the Redskins enjoy him.

Ya, all I have was reading those 3 sites, so wanted to know if anyone knows more about or watched some film on him.
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While I like Deguara, I think Moss would have given up MUCH better value. Deguara, while I like the players, might be the worst pick of 2020, IMO.