Packers @ Bengals GDT - 12:00 NOON GAME!!

[Pckfn23]

[YoHoChecko]

Gary is doing that thing in which he affects the game in consistent, non-stat-sheet, non-flashy ways....

...and he plays a position and was drafted high enough that people expect him to make an impact in visible, flashy ways.

Gary is a good starting football player. You are better with him on the field. But he is falling well short of the expectations that he'd step forward and "dominate" in year 3 as a fulltime player, and he is falling short of the expectations people have for a top 15 pick, now in year three.

It makes sense that this has created a polarized impact. It's like this generation's AJ Hawk. Sure, he was a solid football player for years. But he was drafted so high that he still feels like a disappointment. It's not going to change unless/until Gary starts wracking up sacks and more consistent, visible play-altering pressures.

I find myself disagreeing with both extremes. He is a good football player, not a bad football player. But he is also not as good as I want him to be. And as a guy who LOVED Brian Burns and Dexter Lawrence in the draft that year, it's easy for me to feel like, yeah, maybe Burns should have been the pick like I said.

But Gary is playing well. He's valuable to the team. He's a good football player. But he also isn't tilting the field the way his athletic talent, high-level effort, and high draft position would lead us to hope for.

[Pckfn23]

Gary is doing that thing in which he affects the game in consistent, non-stat-sheet, non-flashy ways....

...and he plays a position and was drafted high enough that people expect him to make an impact in visible, flashy ways.

Gary is a good starting football player. You are better with him on the field. But he is falling well short of the expectations that he'd step forward and "dominate" in year 3 as a fulltime player, and he is falling short of the expectations people have for a top 15 pick, now in year three.

It makes sense that this has created a polarized impact. It's like this generation's AJ Hawk. Sure, he was a solid football player for years. But he was drafted so high that he still feels like a disappointment. It's not going to change unless/until Gary starts wracking up sacks and more consistent, visible play-altering pressures.

I find myself disagreeing with both extremes. He is a good football player, not a bad football player. But he is also not as good as I want him to be. And as a guy who LOVED Brian Burns and Dexter Lawrence in the draft that year, it's easy for me to feel like, yeah, maybe Burns should have been the pick like I said.

But Gary is playing well. He's valuable to the team. He's a good football player. But he also isn't tilting the field the way his athletic talent, high-level effort, and high draft position would lead us to hope for.

100%

Example, the holding call/hands to the face penalty was HUGE. Doesn't show up on his stat sheet.

He is certainly not bad. He is certainly not elite. No reason to make it out like he is either of those things. He is playing pretty good football, but we want him to play really good football.

[Yoop]

Gary is doing that thing in which he affects the game in consistent, non-stat-sheet, non-flashy ways....

...and he plays a position and was drafted high enough that people expect him to make an impact in visible, flashy ways.

Gary is a good starting football player. You are better with him on the field. But he is falling well short of the expectations that he'd step forward and "dominate" in year 3 as a fulltime player, and he is falling short of the expectations people have for a top 15 pick, now in year three.

It makes sense that this has created a polarized impact. It's like this generation's AJ Hawk. Sure, he was a solid football player for years. But he was drafted so high that he still feels like a disappointment. It's not going to change unless/until Gary starts wracking up sacks and more consistent, visible play-altering pressures.

I find myself disagreeing with both extremes. He is a good football player, not a bad football player. But he is also not as good as I want him to be. And as a guy who LOVED Brian Burns and Dexter Lawrence in the draft that year, it's easy for me to feel like, yeah, maybe Burns should have been the pick like I said.

But Gary is playing well. He's valuable to the team. He's a good football player. But he also isn't tilting the field the way his athletic talent, high-level effort, and high draft position would lead us to hope for.

turn on a tape of Gary's play at Michigan, then watch any of our games this year and he looks like the same player, to often can't shed a block and if he does it's usually a tad late to do anything, he is far better against the run then he is rushing the QB.

seriously Yoho if I'd been the HC and Mike Smith said what he did defending Gary he'd be looking for a new job, now obviously he was just taking heat off of one of his players, but it obviously doesn't take years to teach hand technique to OLB's/DE's that been doing that stuff in college for years.

[Pckfn23]

Don't even say you have been watching actual game film from Michigan and then watching our games this season and comparing them... Come on...

[YoHoChecko]

turn on a tape of Gary's play at Michigan, then watch any of our games this year and he looks like the same player, to often can't shed a block and if he does it's usually a tad late to do anything, he is far better against the run then he is rushing the QB.

seriously Yoho if I'd been the HC and Mike Smith said what he did defending Gary he'd be looking for a new job, now obviously he was just taking heat off of one of his players, but it obviously doesn't take years to teach hand technique to OLB's/DE's that been doing that stuff in college for years.

Look, I'm not studying film, but this response is irrelevant to my post. What I said was that he is playing good, solid football while still falling short of expectations. What you're saying is that he has not shown a lot of growth or improvement as a player. Those are not mutually exclusive concepts, nor are they particularly incongruent.

In fact, if you listen to scouting reports by actual scouts and not pundits on Gary coming out, a lot of people said that he was solid against the run and does a lot of the little things but doesn't put up big production. Doing that same thing now, against a higher level of competition in the NFL, is still being a solid football player who is not creating the visible, statistical production we'd want from his draft stock.

Like i said, I disagree with people who are defending him as worth the pick and people who are saying he's not playing well. Both are incorrect in my eyes. There's a difference, however, between being a disappointment and being a draft bust. If you get a solid football player, it's never a bust; but if you pick very high and get a guy who looks more like a solid starter, not an all-star, you're disappointed.

Look, there's a lot of football left to be played. He could go on a tear like the last 6 weeks of last season at any given time. Or he could not. But regardless, he's still not bad at the game of football on a professional level, and that's worth valuing for what it is, even if it's not what was hoped for or expected.

[JKB]

4251512F-362C-4140-B6EA-97618A937489.jpeg (501.74 KiB) Viewed 403 times

[APB]

As I said in the game, gotta trust people to do their job in that situation. I will say this after I rewatched. On the 3 he missed the right side came crashing through yet again and all 3 kicks went left. Was Crosby trying to avoid a block? Cant say. The one he made there was no real rush off the right side. Im not sure how you can go 3 consecutive weeks and have the same problem on STs.

Seeing this reminded me of a thought I had yesterday:

Apparently MLF has more trust in Crosby than he does in Rodgers.

Multiple times yesterday, during the closing minutes of the 4th and in OT, MLF called plays that were ultra-conservative run plays or short passes that largely played right into the defense. Some plays were successful while others were not. The play-calling ultimately led to less-than-gimme FG attempts that Crosby obviously struggled to make.

The two final drives of regulation I can get on board with. But once Crosby showed the entire stadium he was struggling, then you turn to your MVP and All-Pro WR to win it. That OT drive after the Campbell interception? Yikes. And then kick it on 3rd down without even allowing your QB the chance to bring it in a little closer? Where is the faith??

You love to point out in your repeated "like I said" posts, trust the players to do their jobs. I found MLF to be sorely lacking in his trust of the offense to do their jobs at crunch time whether it was going for it on 4th and inches or attempting a FG on 3rd down from 40 yds when the kicker was clearly struggling. That Crosby finally got his head straight and did his job - the fourth time is the charm, I guess - was an opportunity he likely never should have had nor should MLF have put him in the position to provide. Not with the QB/RB/WR tandem he had at his disposal anyway.

[go pak go]

Fans do what fans do right?

The Steelers game it's the coach's fault for not running the ball and instead going for the kill (even though Rodgers had Tonyn open....he just missed it). The Bengals game it is the opposite.

The only real play call I have issue with was the 2nd down after the Campbell interception. At that point CIN clearly knows you are running and are clearly selling out to stop it. That's the perfect time to throw one into the EZ and if it isn't there, throw the ball in the back of the endzone.

I have zero issues with the 4th and inches call. If you don't make it, you are in a bad spot. If you make it, you still are basically in the same spot and what's the end goal? Trying to get inside the 20? The kick at that point wasn't as much about distance but rather just relying on your kicker to hit a solid ball. On one end it's like, "don't trust Mason....he's missed 4!" But on the other end it's like, okay he's gotta make on eventually.

[lupedafiasco]

Gary is doing that thing in which he affects the game in consistent, non-stat-sheet, non-flashy ways....

...and he plays a position and was drafted high enough that people expect him to make an impact in visible, flashy ways.

Gary is a good starting football player. You are better with him on the field. But he is falling well short of the expectations that he'd step forward and "dominate" in year 3 as a fulltime player, and he is falling short of the expectations people have for a top 15 pick, now in year three.

It makes sense that this has created a polarized impact. It's like this generation's AJ Hawk. Sure, he was a solid football player for years. But he was drafted so high that he still feels like a disappointment. It's not going to change unless/until Gary starts wracking up sacks and more consistent, visible play-altering pressures.

I find myself disagreeing with both extremes. He is a good football player, not a bad football player. But he is also not as good as I want him to be. And as a guy who LOVED Brian Burns and Dexter Lawrence in the draft that year, it's easy for me to feel like, yeah, maybe Burns should have been the pick like I said.

But Gary is playing well. He's valuable to the team. He's a good football player. But he also isn't tilting the field the way his athletic talent, high-level effort, and high draft position would lead us to hope for.

I thought I posted earlier but I guess it didn’t go through. &%$@ hotel internet.

It is weird how much Gary is like Brandon Graham from the Eagles. Same school, same build, almost same selection. I agree he influences the play a ton and makes a lot of space for others while not getting the stats. One thing I think the coaches need to drill into him is to just bull rush the OTs. When he goes through them he’s very good. When I think he has tried to get around them he gets pushed out of the play. Run defense he is all effort all the time.

But yes still we should have gotten a better player. I loved Burns as well if they were gonna take an edge. I was all in on Jeffery Simmons. Didn’t care about the injury. That was top 5 talent at a discounted rate and he’s basically been a phenom on a bad defense.

[Scott4Pack]

Everybody was good enough to win this game in regulation except for Crosby and the Head Coach.

That includes with Rodgers starting out awful.

Also, Rashan Gary is not a good football player at this point in his career. Preston Smith is though.

I’ve been watching Gary.
1. He holds the edge well against the run.
2. He gets the most pressure on QBs of anybody on our D.
3. He is frequently around the ball and getting tackles.

Which Gary are you watching? He surely is a good football player. Sure, he might not meet somebody’s expectations. But he is doing what the coaches want him to do.

[Labrev]

As I said in the game, gotta trust people to do their job in that situation. I will say this after I rewatched. On the 3 he missed the right side came crashing through yet again and all 3 kicks went left. Was Crosby trying to avoid a block? Cant say. The one he made there was no real rush off the right side. Im not sure how you can go 3 consecutive weeks and have the same problem on STs.

I don't know about trying to avoid a block, but it's hard to believe that the leaky FG protection -- which we can all see and find alarming -- does not also affect our kicker mentally.

[Labrev]

And yeah, I don't care for Mo's explanation that they can't block a well-timed operation from the side. For one thing, why make yourself have to rely on a well-timed operation every time? Crosby has been doing this for years and is one of the best in the league at it. If he's making the FGs, I'm not gonna ask him to make "timing" changes, especially when the only adjustment you need to make to support it is have the outside blockers BLOCK THEIR DAMN GUY. I really don't think we will be crippling ourselves too much by asking blockers to block. What else are they lined up out there for?

And for two, more importantly, you're WRONG. Joe Haden had a perfectly timed jump (let's not kid ourselves, he wasn't offsides) and dive which blocked your kick two weeks ago. So yes, they can, in fact, block a well-timed operation from the side (and if that kick wasn't actually "well-timed," see #1 above).

I can agree that our ST units have improved in some respects under Drayton, but the flaws are too big to overlook.

[Pckfn23]

And yeah, I don't care for Mo's explanation that they can't block a well-timed operation from the side. For one thing, why make yourself have to rely on a well-timed operation every time? Crosby has been doing this for years and is one of the best in the league at it. If he's making the FGs, I'm not gonna ask him to make "timing" changes, especially when the only adjustment you need to make to support it is have the outside blockers BLOCK THEIR DAMN GUY. I really don't think we will be crippling ourselves too much by asking blockers to block. What else are they lined up out there for?

And for two, more importantly, you're WRONG. Joe Haden had a perfectly timed jump (let's not kid ourselves, he wasn't offsides) and dive which blocked your kick two weeks ago. So yes, they can, in fact, block a well-timed operation from the side (and if that kick wasn't actually "well-timed," see #1 above).

I can agree that our ST units have improved in some respects under Drayton, but the flaws are too big to overlook.

First, there is absolutely no conclusive evidence either way that Haden was offsides or not. All we know is that it was a penalty and the jump was very close to the snap. If he lined up offsides, it is a penalty. If he didn't, it likely is not. So let's not go down that rabbit hole.

Second, what the outside blocker, TE usually, should do is absolutely block the inside man and then try to get an arm on the outside man to slow him up a bit. That last part IS all about timing, which means EVERYTHING from the snap, to the hold, to the kick has to be well timed. If a team overloads a side to try and block it, the timing has to be there because the blocking can not get everyone. Can't let guys inside first and foremost, that has happened too often.

I wonder if the snap is slow...?

[YoHoChecko]

And for two, more importantly, you're WRONG. Joe Haden had a perfectly timed jump (let's not kid ourselves, he wasn't offsides) and dive which blocked your kick two weeks ago. So yes, they can, in fact, block a well-timed operation from the side (and if that kick wasn't actually "well-timed," see #1 above).

1) it was 39, not 20, who blocked the kick; he came from inside the edge blocker.
2) Perhaps the timing of the operation on that play was off, but more importantly, the Steelers timed the snap because they had located a "tell" on tape. So the theory that he can't get there in time was impacted by that flaw in our operation.

It's PROBABLE (to me, at least) that the effort to mix up the timing of the snap to avoid being jumped like that, the timing of the operation changed and the change impacted the routine of the kicker, who does everything the same way most of the time. I can't be sure, and maybe we'll never know; but I thought that immediately and Andy Herman also raised it in his post-game video.

Obviously, it needs to get fixed; both the protection and the timing of the operation. But I'm not one to knowledgeably question the experts who are saying specifically the amount of time needed to get the operation right and avoid a block, and who are explaining the elements that need to change based on careful film review.

[lupedafiasco]

Can’t remember who but someone said when Bradley snaps the ball he pushes it forward first and he believes it’s tipping off the snap.

[YoHoChecko]

Can’t remember who but someone said when Bradley snaps the ball he pushes it forward first and he believes it’s tipping off the snap.

Yeah, they talked about the hitch in the snap AND something Bojo was doing that were both tips. Hitches apparently are something that develop fairly commonly for long snappers and need to be removed when they pop up... according to the interview. I dunno if that's actually true, or if only true with low quality snappers.

[Pckfn23]

Also, really interesting that so little information is coming out on Twitter about yesterday's game.

[Pckfn23]

[BSA]

Yeah, they talked about the hitch in the snap AND something Bojo was doing that were both tips. Hitches apparently are something that develop fairly commonly for long snappers and need to be removed when they pop up... according to the interview.

If you look at the video here vs Steelers ( key replay view starts at 6 minute mark) - you will see him first raise the ball up slightly...and then snap it backwards. LS do this because it gets the ball off the grass, reduces friction and allows for a better, more accurate throw. It also delays the snap a tiny bit by going forward and up before it goes backwards.

Its really hard for the Ref to see this hitch among a sea of legs, but on the overhead shots you can pick it up easier. That hitch = the official snap of the ball- so if you jump the hitch, it appears you are jumping the snap- because the backward movement is a fraction of a second later and the backward movement is what everybody is watching for to signal the start of the snapping motion


https://youtu.be/eduktK6HXm8
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