General Packer News 2021

[APB]

like most fans who think sacks determine the quality of a edge rusher, PFR misses the value pressures produce, this article sheds more light on Gary, pressure often leads to sacks as was easily seen in the clips 004 brought.

I'm curious who it is you're arguing against with this statement? For the life of me, I can't think of a single member of this forum who has made this argument.

Additionally, you have been one of the main people arguing against Gary for the past two years. It now seems you've taken to arguing on Gary's behalf debating against some of the very same counter-arguments you yourself once made. It's all rather confusing, to be honest.

[Yoop]

like most fans who think sacks determine the quality of a edge rusher, PFR misses the value pressures produce, this article sheds more light on Gary, pressure often leads to sacks as was easily seen in the clips 004 brought.

I'm curious who it is you're arguing against with this statement? For the life of me, I can't think of a single member of this forum who has made this argument.

Additionally, you have been one of the main people arguing against Gary for the past two years. It now seems you've taken to arguing on Gary's behalf debating against some of the very same counter-arguments you yourself once made. It's all rather confusing, to be honest.

it's not confusing at all, PFR goes out of there way to discount the ability of players by not providing complete data, thats what I'am arguing, and they have been doing this ever since they started recording pass rush data, it's only confusing because YOU and some others here don't want to accept these limitations.

I simply pointed this out, imo you and others here are the ones arguing with me, if ya had agreed that PFR provides incomplete data there would have been NO argument.

[BF004]

obviously both sites are used for reference, imo PFF does a more complete job.

No, you just like the way their numbers look better.

I'll prefer reading a column like this over anything PFR ever produces, they do a dis service to every player when they limit the scope of there data.

They are not limiting the scope of their data. They do not produce data or columns for reading. They relay statistics they are given, that is about it.

PFR goes out of there way to discount the ability of players by not providing complete data

You don't have to make &%$@ up, no one is discounting ability of players, no is not providing complete data. PFR gets their numbers from SportsRadar, they present them. SR clearly have a different threshold for granting a subjective statistic. That is it, no bias, no discounting ability, no limiting scope of data. Just absolutely baffling to me you just say things you know are not true. Or if you don't know how it isn't true, like how can that be possible if you read the last page?



This is not that hard a concept to grasp here, my goodness.

[go pak go]

like most fans who think sacks determine the quality of a edge rusher, PFR misses the value pressures produce, this article sheds more light on Gary, pressure often leads to sacks as was easily seen in the clips 004 brought.

I'm curious who it is you're arguing against with this statement? For the life of me, I can't think of a single member of this forum who has made this argument.

Additionally, you have been one of the main people arguing against Gary for the past two years. It now seems you've taken to arguing on Gary's behalf debating against some of the very same counter-arguments you yourself once made. It's all rather confusing, to be honest.

it's not confusing at all, PFR goes out of there way to discount the ability of players by not providing complete data, thats what I'am arguing, and they have been doing this ever since they started recording pass rush data, it's only confusing because YOU and some others here don't want to accept these limitations.

I simply pointed this out, imo you and others here are the ones arguing with me, if ya had agreed that PFR provides incomplete data there would have been NO argument.

NO!!! PFF is limiting the data!!!

According to go pak go's advanced statistics, Rashan Gary has 157 total pressures this year!! And PFF only shows 76 pressures. PFF is incomplete!

Justice must be served. It has been so obvious for so many years that PFF doesn't go far enough on pressures. Therefore I made my own statistical re-watch and compiled my own.

The numbers are much, much bigger! I like bigger numbers.

[go pak go]

obviously both sites are used for reference, imo PFF does a more complete job.

No, you just like the way their numbers look better.

Hahaha. Yup. This hits my sarcastic response.

All this is once again yoop being a mama bear but this time to the kid he swore sucked and was a bad draft pick. What a weird 6 weeks it has been here. If you told me in August that yoop would down Rodgers and find any excuse to lift Gary I'd have called you

The world has gone mad.

[Pckfn23]

the same as PFF, hurry's + hit's, (knockdowns) and sacks combined those 3 equal total pressures

Let me ask again, since you claim the PFF pressures includes hurries, what is the PFF definition of a hurry?

why are you turning this into a tongue twister???? why is this sentence so hard for your to accept????
this is a definition of a hurry as well as being counted as a pressure

"Under pressure passing is any time the quarterback is disturbed from his normal throwing motion from set up to release, or anytime a pressure is registered on a given passing play."

your the one who wont accept a simple explanation, as the vids 004 just brought clearly shows, multiple players get pressure on any given play.

You specifically told us all that PFF counts Hurries, Sacks, and QB Hits as pressures. We know what sacks are. We pretty much know what QB Hits are. PFR defines a hurry, but you can't find what a hurry is for PFF. So does PFF include hurries as you say? If so, what is a hurry according?

What you are using is their explanation of Under pressure passing for a QB, ON OFFENSE. That might be the same as pressure for a defender, not sure because that definition can't be found. That said, I already explained why PFF would count more pressures if you use the QB Under Pressure definition. It is because the definition is VERY broad. A QB who moves within the pocket would still be under pressure even if they do not have to throw early or leave the pocket. This would be the main difference between PFR and PFF, if the offensive pressure definition transfers to defense. The 2nd half of the QB Under Pressure definition, gives me reason to believe the defensive pressure is at least slightly different.

Very simply, because SportsRadar counts a pressure as a QB KNOCKDOWN, not just a QB HIT, AND they have a VERY specific definition of a hurry which is when a passer is chased from the pocket or forced to throw before they are ready. They are not omitting anything, they are more selective to what constitutes a hurry or pressure compared to whatever PFF does.

according to YOU, PFR doesn't count a hurry when a rusher forces the QB to get rid of the ball unless the QB has to move to do it

Incorrect. You once again aren't following what is being specifically told to you. A hurry is forcing a QB from the pocket OR (see the word OR?) the defender forces the QB to throw before they are ready. This has been spelled out to you countless times.

if the rusher hits the QB it doesn't count as a pressure,

If the QB goes to the ground or the QB throws before they are ready, then it does count as a pressure. If the QB doesn't go to the ground or throw it before they are ready, then no it doesn't.

do you even bother to think how idiotic that is,

It is only idiotic because it is your own definition and not what is actually happening.

I'll go with PFF's idea that any time a QB is forced to hurry his throw it constitutes as a pressure, no wonder PFR is shorting Gary 35 pressures this year.

That's actually what the PFR definition is. There is no PFF explanation that includes the word hurry.

You do realize the PFR applies their definition to all defenders and not just Rashon Gary, right? So Rashon Gary is not being shorted, you understand that, right?

why wouldn't you give a hurry to 3, they caused the QB to scramble, Gary had initial pressure, Anderson closed and forced him back inside and Preston sacked him, the hurry's ( pressure) forced the sack, thats why PFF counts them.

PFR would count it as well. One or both of Gary and Anderson would bet a hurry and Preston Smith would get the sack. At least 2 pressures would have been counted on that play for PFR.

obviously both sites are used for reference, imo PFF does a more complete job.

Wonderful, but it doesn't make PFF right or PFR wrong...

I'll prefer reading a column like this over anything PFR ever produces, they do a dis service to every player when they limit the scope of there data.

How are they limiting the scope? They are simply more strict on what counts and apply that across the league. If Gary is having an elite season on PFF, he would be on PFR as well, which he is.

it's not confusing at all, PFR goes out of there way to discount the ability of players by not providing complete data

How is it that you still can not understand that PFR simply has a slightly different and more strict definition of a pressure?

I simply pointed this out, imo you and others here are the ones arguing with me, if ya had agreed that PFR provides incomplete data there would have been NO argument.

This is simply not true at all, you just don't understand what is going on.

[Yoop]

obviously both sites are used for reference, imo PFF does a more complete job.

No, you just like the way their numbers look better.

I'll prefer reading a column like this over anything PFR ever produces, they do a dis service to every player when they limit the scope of there data.

They are not limiting the scope of their data. They do not produce data or columns for reading. They relay statistics they are given, that is about it.

PFR goes out of there way to discount the ability of players by not providing complete data

You don't have to make &%$@ up, no one is discounting ability of players, no is not providing complete data. PFR gets their numbers from SportsRadar, they present them. They clearly have a different threshold for granting a subjective statistic. Just absolutely baffling to me you just say things you know are not true. Or if you don't know how it isn't true, like how can that be possible if you read the last page?



This is not that hard a concept to grasp here, my goodness.

OMG, come on, seriously now, when PFR and Sports radar give info that Gary produced 41 total pressures compared to PFF giving Gary 76 total pressures they are some how not reporting 35 pressures, granted these two data services could be off by a few, but not 35.

doesn't matter how we define the process either use, the difference is to big.
I've brought enough PFF info to show how articulate they are, and that article from Kruse shows how important it is to show complete stats, Gary is basically myles Garrett minus some sacks.

and I'am not deliberatly making anything up

[Yoop]

obviously both sites are used for reference, imo PFF does a more complete job.

No, you just like the way their numbers look better.

Hahaha. Yup. This hits my sarcastic response.

All this is once again yoop being a mama bear but this time to the kid he swore sucked and was a bad draft pick. What a weird 6 weeks it has been here. If you told me in August that yoop would down Rodgers and find any excuse to lift Gary I'd have called you

The world has gone mad.

ya, I live in the NOW world, ya aught to try it sometime, Rodgers puts himself above team, I call him on it, Gary now plays like a 12 slot pick and I commend him for it, I don't live in yesteryear, and you act like I'am a FOOL for it.

[BF004]

and I'am not deliberatly making anything up

You are when you are saying PFR is limiting the scope of their data, going out of their way to discount player's ability, or they are not providing complete data.

Those are all factually incorrect. Ergo, they are made up.

You simply like how PFF number's look better and that is about it.

[YoHoChecko]

I realized today that Gary is basically peak Jadaveon Clowney without the hype.

Like size is similar; athleticism is VERY similar; sacks in the high single digits on a season; PFR pressures in the mid-40s is the same. Usually strong run defender (Clowney is more disciplined than Gary in run defense, but they're both very effective)

Like this is who he is. He's Clowney, which is great.

[go pak go]

I realized today that Gary is basically peak Jadaveon Clowney without the hype.

Like size is similar; athleticism is VERY similar; sacks in the high single digits on a season; PFR pressures in the mid-40s is the same. Usually strong run defender (Clowney is more disciplined than Gary in run defense, but they're both very effective)

Like this is who he is. He's Clowney, which is great.

Yup.

And I think the ceiling for Gary is still significantly higher. He has the "want to"

And that bodes really, really well for him and us.

[YoHoChecko]

Yup.

And I think the ceiling for Gary is still significantly higher. He has the "want to"

And that bodes really, really well for him and us.

yeah, 3rd year Gary being peak Clowney does have an upward arrow attached to it. But if he never gets much better than right now, he's still a worthy first-round high-level player in this league who we have a clear example of as an impact defender. But you're right that he is likely still on the upswing.

[Yoop]

What you are using is their explanation of Under pressure passing for a QB, ON OFFENSE. That might be the same as pressure for a defender, not sure because that definition can't be found. That said, I already explained why PFF would count more pressures if you use the QB Under Pressure definition. It is because the definition is VERY broad. A QB who moves within the pocket would still be under pressure even if they do not have to throw early or leave the pocket. This would be the main difference between PFR and PFF, if the offensive pressure definition transfers to defense. The 2nd half of the QB Under Pressure definition, gives me reason to believe the defensive pressure is at least slightly different.

your just playing word games and you know it, so insulting

PFF determines a hurry as anytime a QB is forced to do anything outside of simply setting up and throwing the ball, if he's forced to move or HURRY his throw it's counted as a pressure.

since YOU refuse to accept anything I say as rational and common sense our conversation on this matter is over, your constantly twisting my comments is exhausting, SR and PFR might work for you, fine, there no more then basic reference for me, and incomplete at that
and if you accept that Gary is rated 70 plus as a edge defender thats fine too, I know he's better then that, far better.

[BF004]

I realized today that Gary is basically peak Jadaveon Clowney without the hype.

Like size is similar; athleticism is VERY similar; sacks in the high single digits on a season; PFR pressures in the mid-40s is the same. Usually strong run defender (Clowney is more disciplined than Gary in run defense, but they're both very effective)

Like this is who he is. He's Clowney, which is great.

I remember those comparisons when Gary was a prospect and/or drafted.

Never gunna be that 18 sack guy, but he is going to effect every single play he is in, run and pass, and just physically beat you and wear you down. He is fun to watch every play.

[Pckfn23]

What you are using is their explanation of Under pressure passing for a QB, ON OFFENSE. That might be the same as pressure for a defender, not sure because that definition can't be found. That said, I already explained why PFF would count more pressures if you use the QB Under Pressure definition. It is because the definition is VERY broad. A QB who moves within the pocket would still be under pressure even if they do not have to throw early or leave the pocket. This would be the main difference between PFR and PFF, if the offensive pressure definition transfers to defense. The 2nd half of the QB Under Pressure definition, gives me reason to believe the defensive pressure is at least slightly different.

your just playing word games and you know it, so insulting

No word games at all. Truth.

PFF determines a hurry as anytime a QB is forced to do anything outside of simply setting up and throwing the ball, if he's forced to move or HURRY his throw it's counted as a pressure.

Really, where is this definition? You have still not presented PFFs definition of a hurry. You just made the above definition up.

since YOU refuse to accept anything I say as rational and common sense our conversation on this matter is over, your constantly twisting my comments is exhausting, SR and PFR might work for you, fine, there no more then basic reference for me, and incomplete at that
and if you accept that Gary is rated 70 plus as a edge defender thats fine too, I know he's better then that, far better.

What you say is wrong. Period. It isn't rational (see your conspiracy that PFR is intentionally not counting pressures) and it isn't common sense. This is no twisting of your comments at all, you are simply getting lost in what is actually being said. PFR's data is not incomplete. This is you making things up because you simply do not like their data. The incomplete data actually comes from PFF since we in the general public can't see it as it is behind a large pay wall.

[BF004]

and I'am not deliberatly making anything up

PFF determines a hurry as anytime a QB is forced to do anything outside of simply setting up and throwing the ball, if he's forced to move or HURRY his throw it's counted as a pressure.

[Yoop]

What you say is wrong. Period. It isn't rational (see your conspiracy that PFR is intentionally not counting pressures) and it isn't common sense. This is no twisting of your comments at all, you are simply getting lost in what is actually being said. PFR's data is not incomplete. This is you making things up because you simply do not like their data. The incomplete data actually comes from PFF since we in the general public can't see it as it is behind a large pay wall.

BS, go count the hurry's in the clip 004 brought, I easily see 3 hurries, one culminating in a sack, I bet SR only counts the sack, and that is mis leading, thats why I don't like there data reporting.

and you are acting deceitful when saying PFF doesn't describe what constitutes a hurry, it's spelled out in several of the clips I've brought, just not exactly how you'd frame it, but it's the same thing.

[Yoop]

Yup.

And I think the ceiling for Gary is still significantly higher. He has the "want to"

And that bodes really, really well for him and us.

yeah, 3rd year Gary being peak Clowney does have an upward arrow attached to it. But if he never gets much better than right now, he's still a worthy first-round high-level player in this league who we have a clear example of as an impact defender. But you're right that he is likely still on the upswing.

he has more total pressures according to PFF then Myles Garrett, imo thats elite company, we've watched him game after game account for at least 4 to 5 pressures, seriously Yoho how can I come to terms with PFR/SR giving him a season total of a measly 41 pressures which doesn't even average out to 3 a game?

[Pugger]

I realized today that Gary is basically peak Jadaveon Clowney without the hype.

Like size is similar; athleticism is VERY similar; sacks in the high single digits on a season; PFR pressures in the mid-40s is the same. Usually strong run defender (Clowney is more disciplined than Gary in run defense, but they're both very effective)

Like this is who he is. He's Clowney, which is great.

What could be the reason Gary is being overlooked by a lot of talking heads?

[Pckfn23]

What you say is wrong. Period. It isn't rational (see your conspiracy that PFR is intentionally not counting pressures) and it isn't common sense. This is no twisting of your comments at all, you are simply getting lost in what is actually being said. PFR's data is not incomplete. This is you making things up because you simply do not like their data. The incomplete data actually comes from PFF since we in the general public can't see it as it is behind a large pay wall.

BS, go count the hurry's in the clip 004 brought, I easily see 3 hurries, one culminating in a sack, I bet SR only counts the sack, and that is mis leading, thats why I don't like there data reporting.

And this is you making things up again. We are all glad you can see 3, but it isn't what you can see that counts. Can you show us that PFF counted 3? If you actually would care to spend some time reading what has been shown to you, you would see that PFR would most likely count at least 2 pressures. Preston Smith would get a pressure for the sack, for sure. One or both of Anderson or Gary would get a pressure through a hurry that forced the QB out of the pocket. That would fit their definition.

and you are acting deceitful when saying PFF doesn't describe what constitutes a hurry, it's spelled out in several of the clips I've brought, just not exactly how you'd frame it, but it's the same thing.

No, it hasn't been, not at all. You have not brought anything from PFF or the related articles that even mentioned Hurries. You actually fabricated the definition a few posts up. I am not the one being deceitful. The only thing you have brought from PFF or explaining PFF pressures is QB Under Pressure Passing. That is the only thing.

How $%@# hard is it to realize that the definitions of a pressure from PFF and from PFR are DIFFERENT?! How $%@# hard is it to understand that that doesn't make either wrong or incomplete?!