Rodgers wants out

[Drj820]

I hope Jordan Love goes on to be a hall of fame QB for Packers after Rodgers retires.

[YoHoChecko]

All we are saying is people within the org had been wowd by Rodgers at practice and had felt resolve about moving on from Favre in favor of Rodgers.

We aren’t talking fans, message board people, or media. We are talking people within the org who made the decision to move on. Which they did make.

You dispute this?

I don't dispute that.

I also don't recall when we started hearing that. I personally don't remember a lot of it this early. I remember a lot of it all throughout the offseason between years 2 and 3 and the season. And he finally showed it against the Cowboys.

But you're also making an assessment of something we can't know. You're not talking about the opinions of people outside the organization, you're talking about guys inside the organization, and you're taking a "sense" away from it because MLF looked like he spent all offseason fearcrying (and I agree that he did look like that).

But excuse me for thinking "I don't get a sense from the people within the organization who I don't know and never have spoken to, and many of whom don't speak much to the media, that they feel very good about Love, and I am going to extrapolate that lack of a sense of confidence and calm into an assessment of how the team internally thinks of Jordan Love" isn't a very strong position to argue from.

But yeah, I watched Love this offseason and I said "we need to keep Rodgers this year." My assessment is/was that he's not ready to be a starter right now. He may never be. He may be well on his way. And only a couple people have a good sense about that and even those insiders can be wrong because no one knows the future. I would have hoped to have seen better from him in year two, from what we can see. But we do have concrete evidence of many observers saying it's "night and day" difference from year one to year two, so we can only hope, guess, and wonder, if there will be another jump.
But our sense of how the team insiders might feel isn't, like, evidence. It's not a strong rationale for developing opinions about a player. It's essentially speculation filtered through each of our own priors and cognitive biases.

[Drj820]

All we are saying is people within the org had been wowd by Rodgers at practice and had felt resolve about moving on from Favre in favor of Rodgers.

We aren’t talking fans, message board people, or media. We are talking people within the org who made the decision to move on. Which they did make.

You dispute this?

I don't dispute that.

I also don't recall when we started hearing that. I personally don't remember a lot of it this early. I remember a lot of it all throughout the offseason between years 2 and 3 and the season. And he finally showed it against the Cowboys.

But you're also making an assessment of something we can't know. You're not talking about the opinions of people outside the organization, you're talking about guys inside the organization, and you're taking a "sense" away from it because MLF looked like he spent all offseason fearcrying (and I agree that he did look like that).

But excuse me for thinking "I don't get a sense from the people within the organization who I don't know and never have spoken to, and many of whom don't speak much to the media, that they feel very good about Love, and I am going to extrapolate that lack of a sense of confidence and calm into an assessment of how the team internally thinks of Jordan Love" isn't a very strong position to argue from.

But yeah, I watched Love this offseason and I said "we need to keep Rodgers this year." My assessment is/was that he's not ready to be a starter right now. He may never be. He may be well on his way. And only a couple people have a good sense about that and even those insiders can be wrong because no one knows the future. I would have hoped to have seen better from him in year two, from what we can see. But we do have concrete evidence of many observers saying it's "night and day" difference from year one to year two, so we can only hope, guess, and wonder, if there will be another jump.
But our sense of how the team insiders might feel isn't, like, evidence. It's not a strong rationale for developing opinions about a player. It's essentially speculation filtered through each of our own priors and cognitive biases.

People who were with the org have said on the record they made the decision to stick with Rodgers because they saw him do special things at practice and knew he was worth sticking with. Andrew Brandt is someone who says this very often. That’s all I’m saying.

I also just said that I don’t compare Rodgers to Love, not even in year 2, and that I don’t get the sense from the current org they have deep belief in Love at this point.

Those are the three tenants of takes in this debate. As for love, I hope he turns out awesome. Seems like a good kid.

[bud fox]

Rodgers unprepared half against one of the best def's is not the same as Love's prepared matches against not great defences at the time of playing them.

Also for that Pats game Favre had gone 5/15 and 2 sacks - 0 tds

Rodgers went 4/12 33 and 3 sacks/fumble.

Lions game

Rodgers went 14/18 2 tds 0 int 0 fumble
Love went 10/17 1 td 2 ints 1 fumble - td was a 60 yard screen.

[YoHoChecko]

People who were with the org have said on the record they made the decision to stick with Rodgers because they saw him do special things at practice and knew he was worth sticking with. Andrew Brandt is someone who says this very often. That’s all I’m saying.

Right, and what I'm saying is that they didn't start telling us that until after the fact. No one is going to come out and be like "we really loved what we were seeing day to day from Josh Rosen in camp" three years later because why would you ever share that take?

I know they all say they felt it at the time. I'm just saying that what the team insiders think right now is not known to us, and it was barely known/whispered/rumored 16 years ago about Rodgers. So we won't know until later what the team really thinks of what they're seeing in Love. And later, if he's great, I bet we'll hear a lot about how great he looked. And if later, he stinks, we won't.

My main point here is that we are using a LOT of hindsight to inform our arguments and trying to apply them to a present in which we don't have similar access to knowledge of outcomes.

I'll have a better sense for how the team feels about Love based on how they treat Rodgers this offseason. But during the season? Who knows.

[Drj820]

People who were with the org have said on the record they made the decision to stick with Rodgers because they saw him do special things at practice and knew he was worth sticking with. Andrew Brandt is someone who says this very often. That’s all I’m saying.

Right, and what I'm saying is that they didn't start telling us that until after the fact. No one is going to come out and be like "we really loved what we were seeing day to day from Josh Rosen in camp" three years later because why would you ever share that take?

I know they all say they felt it at the time. I'm just saying that what the team insiders think right now is not known to us, and it was barely known/whispered/rumored 16 years ago about Rodgers. So we won't know until later what the team really thinks of what they're seeing in Love. And later, if he's great, I bet we'll hear a lot about how great he looked. And if later, he stinks, we won't.

My main point here is that we are using a LOT of hindsight to inform our arguments and trying to apply them to a present in which we don't have similar access to knowledge of outcomes.

I'll have a better sense for how the team feels about Love based on how they treat Rodgers this offseason. But during the season? Who knows.

I mean, one clue that they trusted Rodgers to take the keys to the org is they let Favre go instead of begging him to stay, or trading Rodgers when he said he wanted back. They would have done that if they had no faith in 12. The biggest amount of credibility for the story is the fact that they actually did move on to Rodgers.

[bud fox]

First of all, Rodgers wasn't garbage in his second year. IIRC he came in briefly against NE or someone, promptly got hurt, and that was that. His grade was definitely more of an incomplete than anything else.

It was New England... 4 for 12 for 33 yards and 3 sacks.

Total garbage, in stats, demeanor, play awareness.

Rodgers unprepared half against one of the best def's is not the same as Love's prepared matches against not great defences at the time of playing them.

Also for that Pats game Favre had gone 5/15 and 2 sacks - 0 tds

Rodgers went 4/12 33 and 3 sacks
Lions game

Rodgers went 14/18 2 tds 0 int 0 fumble
Love went 10/17 1 td 2 ints 1 fumble - td was a 60 yard screen.

[BF004]

Rodgers unprepared half against one of the best def's is not the same as Love's prepared matches against not great defences at the time of playing them.

Also for that Pats game Favre had gone 5/15 and 2 sacks - 0 tds

Rodgers went 4/12 33 and 3 sacks/fumble.

Lions game

Rodgers went 14/18 2 tds 0 int 0 fumble
Love went 10/17 1 td 2 ints 1 fumble - td was a 60 yard screen.

I like how the TD gets its own footnote to discredit it but an interception doesn’t, nor mention of playing with backups, nor it being a meaningless game.


Like I just hate agenda posting. Just strive to be honest and accurate with a situation. Doesn’t benefit anyone, including yourself.

He didn’t have a very good outing, but we don’t need an angle about it either way.


*** not really meaning to single just you or this post out, but just in general.

[YoHoChecko]

I mean, one clue that they trusted Rodgers to take the keys to the org is they let Favre go instead of begging him to stay, or trading Rodgers when he said he wanted back. They would have done that if they had no faith in 12. The biggest amount of credibility for the story is the fact that they actually did move on to Rodgers.

Precisely. Which is why I said I'll know more about how they feel this offseason. I'm all for interpreting actions. That's some "proof in the pudding" stuff. But interpreting "senses" during a Super Bowl run? Yeah, not for me. You and I agree that the team clearly did not want Jordan Love to be their starter this year. I can tell that from the actions of the team not to give into Rodgers' trade desires when they easily could have.

[bud fox]

Rodgers unprepared half against one of the best def's is not the same as Love's prepared matches against not great defences at the time of playing them.

Also for that Pats game Favre had gone 5/15 and 2 sacks - 0 tds

Rodgers went 4/12 33 and 3 sacks/fumble.

Lions game

Rodgers went 14/18 2 tds 0 int 0 fumble
Love went 10/17 1 td 2 ints 1 fumble - td was a 60 yard screen.

I like how the TD gets its own footnote to discredit it but an interception doesn’t, nor mention of playing with backups, nor it being a meaningless game.


Like I just hate agenda posting. Just strive to be honest and accurate with a situation. Doesn’t benefit anyone, including yourself.

He didn’t have a very good outing, but we don’t need an angle about it either way.


*** not really meaning to single just you or this post out, but just in general.

Yes we did because people are comparing him to Rodgers. In Rodgers Pats game the starting QB, HOF Legend Favre, was having a terrible game. Rodgers also had a bad game.

In Loves Lions game the starting QB, HOF Legend Rodgers, was having a fine game. Love had a bad game.

Love's interceptions were from a tipped passed and a badly thrown pass. His TD was a screen pass.

[Drj820]

I mean, one clue that they trusted Rodgers to take the keys to the org is they let Favre go instead of begging him to stay, or trading Rodgers when he said he wanted back. They would have done that if they had no faith in 12. The biggest amount of credibility for the story is the fact that they actually did move on to Rodgers.

Precisely. Which is why I said I'll know more about how they feel this offseason. I'm all for interpreting actions. That's some "proof in the pudding" stuff. But interpreting "senses" during a Super Bowl run? Yeah, not for me. You and I agree that the team clearly did not want Jordan Love to be their starter this year. I can tell that from the actions of the team not to give into Rodgers' trade desires when they easily could have.

Now we are getting closer to on the same page. What you are describing is what I have been doing. I see it as action worth making a judgement on when love comes in and never dresses a game in year one. Same for what i saw from the org when Rodgers threatened to leave. I also made judgements off the action I saw against the chiefs. No projecting, Just inputting data points as we move through the process.

[British]

People who were with the org have said on the record they made the decision to stick with Rodgers because they saw him do special things at practice and knew he was worth sticking with. Andrew Brandt is someone who says this very often. That’s all I’m saying.

Right, and what I'm saying is that they didn't start telling us that until after the fact. No one is going to come out and be like "we really loved what we were seeing day to day from Josh Rosen in camp" three years later because why would you ever share that take?

I know they all say they felt it at the time. I'm just saying that what the team insiders think right now is not known to us, and it was barely known/whispered/rumored 16 years ago about Rodgers. So we won't know until later what the team really thinks of what they're seeing in Love. And later, if he's great, I bet we'll hear a lot about how great he looked. And if later, he stinks, we won't.

My main point here is that we are using a LOT of hindsight to inform our arguments and trying to apply them to a present in which we don't have similar access to knowledge of outcomes.

I'll have a better sense for how the team feels about Love based on how they treat Rodgers this offseason. But during the season? Who knows.

I mean, one clue that they trusted Rodgers to take the keys to the org is they let Favre go instead of begging him to stay, or trading Rodgers when he said he wanted back. They would have done that if they had no faith in 12. The biggest amount of credibility for the story is the fact that they actually did move on to Rodgers.

They trusted Rodgers to take over after his 3rd season.

Love is nearing the end of his second and his first was disrupted by a pandemic.

And Love was a much less touted prospect.

So on that timeline Love might just be ready come the end of next year. But considering he's faced more challenges than Rodgers and is less talented maybe he's another two years away from getting good.

Now if Rodgers leaves, Love may need to learn on the job and it will be tough to watch for a year or two. But according to this timeline we may have to just live through it and wait to see if things click for Love like they did for Rodgers.

[Foosball]

Broncos end up hiring Hackett as their head coach to make Rodgers transition to Denver seamless.

[bud fox]

First of all, Rodgers wasn't garbage in his second year. IIRC he came in briefly against NE or someone, promptly got hurt, and that was that. His grade was definitely more of an incomplete than anything else.

It was New England... 4 for 12 for 33 yards and 3 sacks.

Total garbage, in stats, demeanor, play awareness.

Rodgers unprepared half against one of the best def's is not the same as Love's prepared matches against not great defences at the time of playing them.

Also for that Pats game Favre had gone 5/15 and 2 sacks - 0 tds

Rodgers went 4/12 33 and 3 sacks
Lions game

Rodgers went 14/18 2 tds 0 int 0 fumble
Love went 10/17 1 td 2 ints 1 fumble - td was a 60 yard screen.

[mention]YoHoChecko[/mention] - thoughts?

[YoHoChecko]

@YoHoChecko - thoughts?

My thoughts are essentially what BF already said to you, which is that you are picking and choosing plays to caveat or not; and that you are shifting the goalposts by first starting that Rodgers didn't play like garbage and then when it's pointed out that he did, you simply try to explain why he played like garbage; but when people explain why Love played like garbage, you dismiss their caveats.

My thoughts are that your mind is made up. And thus, why would I converse with you on this topic; instead of someone like DrJ who communicates his opinions on a search for agreements and the sources of disagreements, not to simply slam his point home over and over.

So I was just going to let that post go away on its own until you specifically tagged me.

[Drj820]

Right, and what I'm saying is that they didn't start telling us that until after the fact. No one is going to come out and be like "we really loved what we were seeing day to day from Josh Rosen in camp" three years later because why would you ever share that take?

I know they all say they felt it at the time. I'm just saying that what the team insiders think right now is not known to us, and it was barely known/whispered/rumored 16 years ago about Rodgers. So we won't know until later what the team really thinks of what they're seeing in Love. And later, if he's great, I bet we'll hear a lot about how great he looked. And if later, he stinks, we won't.

My main point here is that we are using a LOT of hindsight to inform our arguments and trying to apply them to a present in which we don't have similar access to knowledge of outcomes.

I'll have a better sense for how the team feels about Love based on how they treat Rodgers this offseason. But during the season? Who knows.

I mean, one clue that they trusted Rodgers to take the keys to the org is they let Favre go instead of begging him to stay, or trading Rodgers when he said he wanted back. They would have done that if they had no faith in 12. The biggest amount of credibility for the story is the fact that they actually did move on to Rodgers.

They trusted Rodgers to take over after his 3rd season.

Love is nearing the end of his second and his first was disrupted by a pandemic.

And Love was a much less touted prospect.

So on that timeline Love might just be ready come the end of next year. But considering he's faced more challenges than Rodgers and is less talented maybe he's another two years away from getting good.

Now if Rodgers leaves, Love may need to learn on the job and it will be tough to watch for a year or two. But according to this timeline we may have to just live through it and wait to see if things click for Love like they did for Rodgers.

The reason you and I are having a tough time engaging in debate is because I have said I’m not gonna base my evaluations of love on anything to do with Rodgers. Because I don’t think it’s fair to Love, and bc I think Rodgers is way to much of an outlier to compare with someone like Love.

But you are basing everything off a comparison to the timeline of Rodgers, so nothing seems to count for now until Love is in the league longer than when Rodgers took over and played well. I don’t think the career of Rodgers is replicable.

Thats why this is tough. I’m already evaluating Love. Not waiting until after year 3, bc Rodgers started after year 3.

[BF004]

Rodgers unprepared half against one of the best def's is not the same as Love's prepared matches against not great defences at the time of playing them.

Also for that Pats game Favre had gone 5/15 and 2 sacks - 0 tds

Rodgers went 4/12 33 and 3 sacks/fumble.

Lions game

Rodgers went 14/18 2 tds 0 int 0 fumble
Love went 10/17 1 td 2 ints 1 fumble - td was a 60 yard screen.

I like how the TD gets its own footnote to discredit it but an interception doesn’t, nor mention of playing with backups, nor it being a meaningless game.


Like I just hate agenda posting. Just strive to be honest and accurate with a situation. Doesn’t benefit anyone, including yourself.

He didn’t have a very good outing, but we don’t need an angle about it either way.


*** not really meaning to single just you or this post out, but just in general.

Yes we did because people are comparing him to Rodgers. In Rodgers Pats game the starting QB, HOF Legend Favre, was having a terrible game. Rodgers also had a bad game.

In Loves Lions game the starting QB, HOF Legend Rodgers, was having a fine game. Love had a bad game.

Love's interceptions were from a tipped passed and a badly thrown pass. His TD was a screen pass.

It was a meaningless game playing with an entirely different offense than Rodgers (No Adams, Lazard, Dillon, Bakhtiari, Myers, Patrick, Lewis, probably someone else I'm forgetting). It isn't a fair comparison. He also threw another TD pass that was dropped. Why pick and choose certain aspects to focus on to have a performance fit an agenda instead of simply trying to be as accurate as possible?

I'm not even arguing he did well. I just think its wrong to focus on what you already decided, instead of having a more open mind and judge his performance, good and bad and in between, on its own merits.

[Crazylegs Starks]

Oh my god, this forum is going to be insufferable when Rodgers leaves, like Julie's World was.

<shudder>

[British]

I mean, one clue that they trusted Rodgers to take the keys to the org is they let Favre go instead of begging him to stay, or trading Rodgers when he said he wanted back. They would have done that if they had no faith in 12. The biggest amount of credibility for the story is the fact that they actually did move on to Rodgers.

They trusted Rodgers to take over after his 3rd season.

Love is nearing the end of his second and his first was disrupted by a pandemic.

And Love was a much less touted prospect.

So on that timeline Love might just be ready come the end of next year. But considering he's faced more challenges than Rodgers and is less talented maybe he's another two years away from getting good.

Now if Rodgers leaves, Love may need to learn on the job and it will be tough to watch for a year or two. But according to this timeline we may have to just live through it and wait to see if things click for Love like they did for Rodgers.

The reason you and I are having a tough time engaging in debate is because I have said I’m not gonna base my evaluations of love on anything to do with Rodgers. Because I don’t think it’s fair to Love, and bc I think Rodgers is way to much of an outlier to compare with someone like Love.

But you are basing everything off a comparison to the timeline of Rodgers, so nothing seems to count for now until Love is in the league longer than when Rodgers took over and played well. I don’t think the career of Rodgers is replicable.

Thats why this is tough. I’m already evaluating Love. Not waiting until after year 3, bc Rodgers started after year 3.

What's interesting is you say you don't think it's fair to compare Love with Rodgers but you seem to be the one holding Love to a higher bar than Rodgers.

I'm the one saying that Love is likely a year or two away from where Rodgers was when he took over so we're probably going to have to just be patient and wait for Love to develop, be that taking his lumps as our starter or on the bench.

Ultimately it's almost impossible for you to 'evaluate' Love. You've hardly got anything to work from. And anyway, even if you did, he's probably not ready yet. If it took Rodgers 3 years, it'll likely take Love at least as long. So any 'evaluation' that isn't "well, we just don't know yet and it wouldn't be fair to prejudge him" just comes off as silly to me.

Bottom line is, it will all get resolved in a few months. Rodgers will either stay or go and that will set the table for Love to either start or be traded or be kept for another year as the backup.

[bud fox]

@YoHoChecko - thoughts?

My thoughts are essentially what BF already said to you, which is that you are picking and choosing plays to caveat or not; and that you are shifting the goalposts by first starting that Rodgers didn't play like garbage and then when it's pointed out that he did, you simply try to explain why he played like garbage; but when people explain why Love played like garbage, you dismiss their caveats.

My thoughts are that your mind is made up. And thus, why would I converse with you on this topic; instead of someone like DrJ who communicates his opinions on a search for agreements and the sources of disagreements, not to simply slam his point home over and over.

So I was just going to let that post go away on its own until you specifically tagged me.

lolll this is not it.

So my reason is the HOF QB infront of him also played like garbage where as with Love the HOF QB infront of him played well.

So what is the reason for Love playing garbage?

You were going to let it go away because you were the one that brought up the Pats game for Rodgers but didnt take into account that Favre also played terrible. That the pats def was so much better. That Rodgers was unprepared.

You just wrote a whole post without anything supporting it other than "you are mean and don't listen to me".

Argue against the fact Favre was also bad in the game you put as evidence of ROdgers being bad, where as Rodgers was high level in Love's game.

You can't.