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This might be a little bit off from what you mean, but I really think they need to get rid of this asinine organizational structure where the GM isn't in charge of all aspects of the team. The fact that the president spends a lot of time in the locker room and the cap manager is at the same organizational level as the GM leads to a dysfunctional organization. The Ron Wolf organizational structure is what is needed again. The GM should be in charge of all aspects of the team, the cap manager should merely manage the cap numbers and the president is the GM's boss and handles PR stuff for the organization.
spot on, when the cap finance person (Russ Ball) tells the coach he can't hire a cord of his chosing because it cost a mil. to much even though it doesn't count against the cap you certainly have the cart in front of the horse, leave Rush Ball and Mark Murphy to do there thing and let football people run this team.
Yes. This pissed me off at the time and pisses me off even more now.
This is the only example I can come up with in this regime where I thought they needlessly held back on opening wallet. Unfortunately it is a pathway for us to say it really screwed the pooch.
This might be a little bit off from what you mean, but I really think they need to get rid of this asinine organizational structure where the GM isn't in charge of all aspects of the team. The fact that the president spends a lot of time in the locker room and the cap manager is at the same organizational level as the GM leads to a dysfunctional organization. The Ron Wolf organizational structure is what is needed again. The GM should be in charge of all aspects of the team, the cap manager should merely manage the cap numbers and the president is the GM's boss and handles PR stuff for the organization.
spot on, when the cap finance person (Russ Ball) tells the coach he can't hire a cord of his chosing because it cost a mil. to much even though it doesn't count against the cap you certainly have the cart in front of the horse, leave Rush Ball and Mark Murphy to do there thing and let football people run this team.
Yes. This pissed me off at the time and pisses me off even more now.
This is the only example I can come up with in this regime where I thought they needlessly held back on opening wallet. Unfortunately it is a pathway for us to say it really screwed the pooch.
this is the only situation we know about, it also happened concerning position coaches as well, several coaches Lafluer hired where second choices, we dont here about it because the second choices did well.
Murphy's 3 silo approach to running the team has seemed to work OK ( how much do we really know, mums the word at Lambeau) But Willie is right, the GM should be in charge of all football personal decisions, if ya don't haqve trust in your GM then find a differernt GM, and Russ Ball should simply right the checks, thats it, absolutely no football opinions from him, a couple years tuturing from Ted doesn't qualify him to do any more then that.
spot on, when the cap finance person (Russ Ball) tells the coach he can't hire a cord of his chosing because it cost a mil. to much even though it doesn't count against the cap you certainly have the cart in front of the horse, leave Rush Ball and Mark Murphy to do there thing and let football people run this team.
Yes. This pissed me off at the time and pisses me off even more now.
This is the only example I can come up with in this regime where I thought they needlessly held back on opening wallet. Unfortunately it is a pathway for us to say it really screwed the pooch.
this is the only situation we know about, it also happened concerning position coaches as well, several coaches Lafluer hired where second choices, we dont here about it because the second choices did well.
I have not heard of this at all.
And based on the caliber of position coaches we have on offense and defense I would be very hesitatnt to ever beleive this until I am proven ample evidence to the contrary. This just doesn't pass the sniff test for me at all.
Montgomery, Smith, Gray, Steno, Butkis, etc.
These are pretty big names who have a great resumes and have done really well with our current group of players.
spot on, when the cap finance person (Russ Ball) tells the coach he can't hire a cord of his chosing because it cost a mil. to much even though it doesn't count against the cap you certainly have the cart in front of the horse, leave Rush Ball and Mark Murphy to do there thing and let football people run this team.
Yes. This pissed me off at the time and pisses me off even more now.
This is the only example I can come up with in this regime where I thought they needlessly held back on opening wallet. Unfortunately it is a pathway for us to say it really screwed the pooch.
this is the only situation we know about, it also happened concerning position coaches as well, several coaches Lafluer hired where second choices, we dont here about it because the second choices did well.
Murphy's 3 silo approach to running the team has seemed to work OK ( how much do we really know, mums the word at Lambeau) But Willie is right, the GM should be in charge of all football personal decisions, if ya don't haqve trust in your GM then find a differernt GM, and Russ Ball should simply right the checks, thats it, absolutely no football opinions from him, a couple years tuturing from Ted doesn't qualify him to do any more then that.
What exactly do we “know about”? We have no way of knowing it was Ball who vetoed the Rizzi contract demand. As you point out, Ball manages the cap. Coaching hires do not fall under the cap. If there’s evidence to support Ball was the veto authority behind the Rizzi non-hire, I’d be interested to see it.
Yes. This pissed me off at the time and pisses me off even more now.
This is the only example I can come up with in this regime where I thought they needlessly held back on opening wallet. Unfortunately it is a pathway for us to say it really screwed the pooch.
this is the only situation we know about, it also happened concerning position coaches as well, several coaches Lafluer hired where second choices, we dont here about it because the second choices did well.
Murphy's 3 silo approach to running the team has seemed to work OK ( how much do we really know, mums the word at Lambeau) But Willie is right, the GM should be in charge of all football personal decisions, if ya don't haqve trust in your GM then find a differernt GM, and Russ Ball should simply right the checks, thats it, absolutely no football opinions from him, a couple years tuturing from Ted doesn't qualify him to do any more then that.
What exactly do we “know about”? We have no way of knowing it was Ball who vetoed the Rizzi contract demand. As you point out, Ball manages the cap. Coaching hires do not fall under the cap. If there’s evidence to support Ball was the veto authority behind the Rizzi non-hire, I’d be interested to see it.
There isn’t evidence. But I think you can read enough tea leaves from that time period to conclude there was some kind of failure in the brain trust. Ultimately, I think Murphy would be most to blame. Who’s going to demand this hire gets made? The brand new HC?
this is the only situation we know about, it also happened concerning position coaches as well, several coaches Lafluer hired where second choices, we dont here about it because the second choices did well.
Murphy's 3 silo approach to running the team has seemed to work OK ( how much do we really know, mums the word at Lambeau) But Willie is right, the GM should be in charge of all football personal decisions, if ya don't haqve trust in your GM then find a differernt GM, and Russ Ball should simply right the checks, thats it, absolutely no football opinions from him, a couple years tuturing from Ted doesn't qualify him to do any more then that.
What exactly do we “know about”? We have no way of knowing it was Ball who vetoed the Rizzi contract demand. As you point out, Ball manages the cap. Coaching hires do not fall under the cap. If there’s evidence to support Ball was the veto authority behind the Rizzi non-hire, I’d be interested to see it.
There isn’t evidence. But I think you can read enough tea leaves from that time period to conclude there was some kind of failure in the brain trust. Ultimately, I think Murphy would be most to blame. Who’s going to demand this hire gets made? The brand new HC?
If anyone, I’d guess Gute had more a say as the GM than Ball as the cap guy. Or even Murphy since the newly anointed coach reported directly to Murphy. But I really don’t know, none of us do.
As I think about it further, I’d guess it was indeed Murphy who made the final decision. I’m sure he had input from all three “silo’s” of leadership but my guess is final hire and pay decisions would have rested with him. At least final veto authority, anyway.
What exactly do we “know about”? We have no way of knowing it was Ball who vetoed the Rizzi contract demand. As you point out, Ball manages the cap. Coaching hires do not fall under the cap. If there’s evidence to support Ball was the veto authority behind the Rizzi non-hire, I’d be interested to see it.
There isn’t evidence. But I think you can read enough tea leaves from that time period to conclude there was some kind of failure in the brain trust. Ultimately, I think Murphy would be most to blame. Who’s going to demand this hire gets made? The brand new HC?
If anyone, I’d guess Gute had more a say as the GM than Ball as the cap guy. Or even Murphy since the newly anointed coach reported directly to Murphy. But I really don’t know, none of us do.
As I think about it further, I’d guess it was indeed Murphy who made the final decision. I’m sure he had input from all three “silo’s” of leadership but my guess is final hire and pay decisions would have rested with him. At least final veto authority, anyway.
I agree. That is an organizational failure. Now it seems clear that there is ammo in place for someone to demand they get this next hire right, no matter the cost. I'm guessing that wasn't necessarily possible in 2019. If you strip it down, it's really know one's fault. If it was indeed Murphy's ultimate decision to stick to the budgeted thresholds and no one had the stroke to push back on it, then who's fault is it? Murphy, if the buck stops with him, but you can see where this failed in the power alignment.
I get it that we want to get angry about everything after such a loss, but really there is little evidence that the new structure implemented 4 years ago is hindering team success. We can point to an incident almost 3 years to the day where Darren Rizzi was rumored not to accept a job because we low balled the offer. There is no evidence what so ever that Russ Ball has anything to do with that decisions. In fact his job description doesn't point to that at all, "Responsible for negotiating player contracts and managing the salary cap, as well as the daily supervision of football-administration departments including equipment, video, logistics and team travel, corporate travel, player engagement, family programs and fields." In reality, that decision probably came down to Brian Gutekunst of Mark Murphy. Neither making the decision would have been generally different under a different structure of Owner/President>GM>Head Coach. There is no evidence or whispers on the wind that the current structure as it is has failed. Did President/GM $%@# up hard in not going hard to fix special teams? Absolutely. This might be a Mark Murphy issue at this point as our problems span 2 different coaches and 2 different GMs. The only consistency is Murphy on that front. Also, the last time we fielded a top-10 special teams unit was 2007, the very first year of Murphy's presidency.
Last edited by Pckfn23 on 25 Jan 2022 09:34, edited 1 time in total.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
This might be a little bit off from what you mean, but I really think they need to get rid of this asinine organizational structure where the GM isn't in charge of all aspects of the team. The fact that the president spends a lot of time in the locker room and the cap manager is at the same organizational level as the GM leads to a dysfunctional organization. The Ron Wolf organizational structure is what is needed again. The GM should be in charge of all aspects of the team, the cap manager should merely manage the cap numbers and the president is the GM's boss and handles PR stuff for the organization.
spot on, when the cap finance person (Russ Ball) tells the coach he can't hire a cord of his chosing because it cost a mil. to much even though it doesn't count against the cap you certainly have the cart in front of the horse, leave Rush Ball and Mark Murphy to do there thing and let football people run this team.
Yes. This pissed me off at the time and pisses me off even more now.
This is the only example I can come up with in this regime where I thought they needlessly held back on opening wallet. Unfortunately it is a pathway for us to say it really screwed the pooch.
Wasn't this 3 headed monster responsible for MLF not able to hire the ST coordinator he wanted so he was stuck with the incompetent boob we have now?
If Murphy refused to pay the guy MLF wanted market value, it is Murphys fault.
I think this is where many of us have landed, but I also think it is MLF's responsibility, for sure, and probably Gutey's, as well, to push back on these decisions and ensure they get the right guy in place. Maybe MLF didn't have the clout in 2019, but he sure should now.
If Murphy refused to pay the guy MLF wanted market value, it is Murphys fault.
I think this is where many of us have landed, but I also think it is MLF's responsibility, for sure, and probably Gutey's, as well, to push back on these decisions and ensure they get the right guy in place. Maybe MLF didn't have the clout in 2019, but he sure should now.
True, but at the same time, that wouldn't be any different under a difference structure.
Palmy - "Very few have the ability to truly excel regardless of system. For many the system is the difference between being just a guy or an NFL starter. Fact is, everyone is talented at this level."
If Murphy refused to pay the guy MLF wanted market value, it is Murphys fault.
I think this is where many of us have landed, but I also think it is MLF's responsibility, for sure, and probably Gutey's, as well, to push back on these decisions and ensure they get the right guy in place. Maybe MLF didn't have the clout in 2019, but he sure should now.
we really dont know for sure if this narrative is even true. Very well could be spin for not landing the guy fans figured would be best for the job.
Lafleur himself said he promoted Mo because "so many other teams wanted him". I dont believe that, but if true...maybe Mo's services werent so cheap. Maybe Lafleur just (wrongly) thought the guy could do the job and thought this would be the most seamless transition.
If Murphy refused to pay the guy MLF wanted market value, it is Murphys fault.
I think this is where many of us have landed, but I also think it is MLF's responsibility, for sure, and probably Gutey's, as well, to push back on these decisions and ensure they get the right guy in place. Maybe MLF didn't have the clout in 2019, but he sure should now.
True, but at the same time, that wouldn't be any different under a difference structure.
Yeah, I am not arguing this is a structural issue and I don't know why it seems to be a systemic issue dating back to the MM days. Just pointing out how the structure and specifically the relative newness of MLF as part of that structure may have contributed to the initial failure to get Rizzi under contract. If anything, I actually believe the current structure provides the correct checks and balances to get these decisions correct going forward.
Do y'all know who are Chris Horton, Raymond Ventrone, Lawrence Izzo and Dave Toub?
The four ST coordinators with better ranking than Rizzi's in this year's Rick Gosselin's ST rankings. I think I've hear of Toub in passing. The other three, no memory trace whatsoever.
Point being: ST coordinators tend to be no-names. And cheap. There are hardly any superstars, and absolutely no one who would break the bank, since the best coaches tend not to get stuck being long-term ST coordinators.
Our mistake hasn't been to get no-names, it's not getting the good no-names. I have a REAL hard time believing this is where the org has decided to put a hard line on spending. Makes zero sense, the savings are so tiny.
Do y'all know who are Chris Horton, Raymond Ventrone, Lawrence Izzo and Dave Toub?
The four ST coordinators with better ranking than Rizzi's in this year's Rick Gosselin's ST rankings. I think I've hear of Toub in passing. The other three, no memory trace whatsoever.
Point being: ST coordinators tend to be no-names. And cheap. There are hardly any superstars, and absolutely no one who would break the bank, since the best coaches tend not to get stuck being long-term ST coordinators.
Our mistake hasn't been to get no-names, it's not getting the good no-names. I have a REAL hard time believing this is where the org has decided to put a hard line on spending. Makes zero sense, the savings are so tiny.
Here is an actual report citing Silverstein. Makes zero sense to me, either, but that is what has been reported.
According to a report from Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the Packers won’t be hiring top available special teams coach Darren Rizzi, with cost believed to be the deal breaker in negotiations.
Do y'all know who are Chris Horton, Raymond Ventrone, Lawrence Izzo and Dave Toub?
The four ST coordinators with better ranking than Rizzi's in this year's Rick Gosselin's ST rankings. I think I've hear of Toub in passing. The other three, no memory trace whatsoever.
Point being: ST coordinators tend to be no-names. And cheap. There are hardly any superstars, and absolutely no one who would break the bank, since the best coaches tend not to get stuck being long-term ST coordinators.
Our mistake hasn't been to get no-names, it's not getting the good no-names. I have a REAL hard time believing this is where the org has decided to put a hard line on spending. Makes zero sense, the savings are so tiny.
Here is an actual report citing Silverstein. Makes zero sense to me, either, but that is what has been reported.
According to a report from Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the Packers won’t be hiring top available special teams coach Darren Rizzi, with cost believed to be the deal breaker in negotiations.
If this report by Silverstein is correct I have a feeling they are ruing that decision after that disaster on ST Saturday night. IMO if true it serves them right, frankly.
Do y'all know who are Chris Horton, Raymond Ventrone, Lawrence Izzo and Dave Toub?
The four ST coordinators with better ranking than Rizzi's in this year's Rick Gosselin's ST rankings. I think I've hear of Toub in passing. The other three, no memory trace whatsoever.
Point being: ST coordinators tend to be no-names. And cheap. There are hardly any superstars, and absolutely no one who would break the bank, since the best coaches tend not to get stuck being long-term ST coordinators.
Our mistake hasn't been to get no-names, it's not getting the good no-names. I have a REAL hard time believing this is where the org has decided to put a hard line on spending. Makes zero sense, the savings are so tiny.
Here is an actual report citing Silverstein. Makes zero sense to me, either, but that is what has been reported.
According to a report from Tom Silverstein of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the Packers won’t be hiring top available special teams coach Darren Rizzi, with cost believed to be the deal breaker in negotiations.
It's possible we made a mistake not paying for Rizzi (if Silverstein's report is the whole truth). It's also possible that story was fed to Silverstein by Rizzi's agent to make his new team's fan base feel good about the hire. If it's true we were cheap at ST coord, that's a big blunder. And the STs debacle overall is a black eye for the org.
But I'm just saying the talk about Rizzi is resembling the times when Josh McDaniels was the ONLY choice for the Packers HC job. Mostly because we just don't know jack &%$@ about the field of candidates for ST coordinator jobs, so we go with the one reported name who seems to make sense on the surface.
But it's not like there's only one person in the universe who is a good ST coordinator. I'd personally want a rising star. Drayton was an extinction level comet instead.
Hiring from within on what was already an awful unit was always the laziest route. If drayton was “sooo” good while an Asst ST coach, he would have elevated the units play and made the actual coordinator look better. Assistants have that much pull with those types of units.
