2022 Draft Discussion

[BF004]

Oh yoop.

instead of laughing at me, why don't you look into the reason some of these receivers stud year one and other don't, you will find as I have that it's not just talent.
for people her to think that Rodgers and Lafluer with basically the same offensive schemes as minny aren't capable of this to me is nothing more then a insult to Matt and AR.

N’Keal Harry ruins every argument you’ve ever made on this topic.

[go pak go]

Oh yoop.

instead of laughing at me, why don't you look into the reason some of these receivers stud year one and other don't, you will find as I have that it's not just talent.
for people her to think that Rodgers and Lafluer with basically the same offensive schemes as minny aren't capable of this to me is nothing more then a insult to Matt and AR.

Let's look at the top two rookie WRs in terms of production in a Packers uniform since the year 2000:

1. James Jones - under MM and Brett Favre
2. Greg Jennings - under MM and Brett Favre

The best rookie WR to produce under Aaron Rodgers was MVS. Nelson, Cobb and Adams all had under 500 yards. Nelson and Cobb under 400 yards.

So the theory of Rodgers and MLF doesn't hold up there.

Now let's look at rookies in general under MLF since he is "so accommodating" to rookies:

2019 rookies -
Elgton Jenkins - lost the starting battle to Lane Taylor when clearly Jenkins was the better player
Jace Sternberger - was never put in the productive role

2020 rookies -
Jordan Love - was never activated on the game day 53. Was the default 3rd QB

AJ Dillon - was never given playing time. First time he received actual playing time was vs TEN due to injuries forcing the hand and he exploded on national TV. Never got the chance again. Honestly to the detriment of the Packers as he was rolling in the NFC Title game

Josiah Deguara - MLF raved about him. Gave him some playing time Week 1 but never really again. Then the injury happened. Only saw the field in 2021 after injuries forced MLF's hand.

Jon Runyan - was also held out even though fans loved him until 2021.

2021 rookies -

Josh Meyers - the only rookie to get a nod right away.

Amari Rodgers - was pulled in favor of Cobb early for punt returns...until Cobb fumbled his first punt return. Hardly saw the field. Even vs AZ hardly saw the field.

Royce Newman - saw the field due to injuries and he did beat Lucas Patrick.


So we have Josh Meyers and Royce Newman as rookies who actually got the nod. Additionally, MLF put Billy Turner at LT because he was the "safe" veteran option in both playoff losses in 2020 and 2021 which fans deem as a mistake.

I just honestly to the life of me cannot see any shred of evidence of Rodgers or MLF being more prone to "help rookies succeed early" than anyone else in the league or compared to MM like you tried to convey earlier. Your only success stories thus far are Josh Meyers and Royce Newman.

[salmar80]

Just a general question as I don't really watch much college football. Why do so many "experts" and people on this board say we need a to draft a WR in the 1st round? I hear many saying the Packers have only been to one SB with Rodgers because of no 1st round WRs. But Brady made it to all those SBs with only Terry Glenn who was drafted by Parcells and N'Keal Harry who didn't do anything for them. We had arguably the best WR in the league the last 3 years on our team and didn't make a SB.

I can definitely see we need to draft a couple of WRs but I don't think it MUST be a 1st rounder. Seems to me there are a lot of WRs available this year but not so many DL or inside LBs. It seems to make sense to me to get what there is less of and wait to get the position there are a lot of choices.

Anyways, back to this


I won't shed a tier (pun intended) if we don't get a WR on Thursday. I will wait to view the whole progression.

If we come out of the draft with a decent TE target, and maybe like a Jalen Tolbert and a Tyquan Thornton. I would actually be really excited headed where that group as a whole is headed.

Would I prefer we trade up for Jameson Williams and trade for Darren Waller to get a better group and does our group look a lot better on paper? Of course. But that also doesn't guarantee to long term fix either. We could very easily be a better team overall by using those resources elsewhere.

My dream to make this O not just fine, but stunning in January 2023 would be to trade a 2nd for Waller, trade up for Jameson Williams, pick the best slot available with the other 1st rounder. AR would have weapons aplenty even if the rookie slot wasn't an insta-star. Williams is the only WR that makes me go WOW, could use some of that in the playoffs.

Would that be best long-term value draft, probably not. But AR goes tick-tock...

[Crazylegs Starks]

Just a general question as I don't really watch much college football. Why do so many "experts" and people on this board say we need a to draft a WR in the 1st round? ...

They've got the dreaded Wide Receiver Fever. The only treatment is watching game film of Robert Ferguson.

[Yoop]

Here is another thing that I think the Draft Community sucks at scouting. For these tweener DL, are they EDGE guys or are they interior DL? I think that was the primary reason we didn't have Rashan Gary on our radar in 2019 because most saw him as an interior DL. How do we get better at these?

What is DeMarvin Leal? What is Logan Hall? What is Josh Paschal? Etc.

2nd round picks, just as Gary should have been, ta - weaners need grooming because they played more then one position in college, the ability to do that while making them a jack of all trades so to speak shouldn't mean that you reach for the player

[YoHoChecko]

Here is another thing that I think the Draft Community sucks at scouting. For these tweener DL, are they EDGE guys or are they interior DL? I think that was the primary reason we didn't have Rashan Gary on our radar in 2019 because most saw him as an interior DL. How do we get better at these?

What is DeMarvin Leal? What is Logan Hall? What is Josh Paschal? Etc.

Thinking that Gary, who had the athletic testing of a linebacker, was an iDL at a fairly linear 275 was/is always dumb. Like dumb.dumb.

He's a guy who could play edge like Preston and Z (more Z) where they move inside as interior rushers on some obvious passing downs to give offensive lines more to think about and prepare for, sure. But Gary was always an EDGE

Leal and Hall are interior players who can move out to the edge on running downs. Paschal is an edge in the Z/Gary mold.

It doesn't seem hard or tricky or complicated to me.

[NCF]

It doesn't seem hard or tricky or complicated to me.

Then why isn't there a better consensus among draft sites/scouts?

[YoHoChecko]

It doesn't seem hard or tricky or complicated to me.

Then why isn't there a better consensus among draft sites/scouts?

As far as sites, I think people are lazy. I think they see a guy listed as a DE and without checking to see if they were a 3-4 DE or a 4-3 DE they just place them at EDGE. I think people see a guy listed as DL and without checking to see if they're an 3-4 DL or a 4-3 DL, they say "interior DL"

I think there could be a flow chart diagrammed to answer the question, but the two key questions are:

Does this player have the athleticism and body type to defeat NFL OTs around the edge on passing downs?
- if yes, that player is likely an edge
- if no, that player is likely not an edge

Does this player have the bulk and strength and body type to hold up against NFL interior linemen and double teams on running downs?
- if yes, that player is likely an interior DL
- if no, that player is likely not an interior DL

There are more questions we could add in between, but at its core, that's all we're doing here. I think the only people who have both of those questions answered as a "yes" are JJ Watt and Aaron Donald, and that's a good problem to have.

[NCF]

The man comes through again.

[Yoop]

Oh yoop.

instead of laughing at me, why don't you look into the reason some of these receivers stud year one and other don't, you will find as I have that it's not just talent.
for people her to think that Rodgers and Lafluer with basically the same offensive schemes as minny aren't capable of this to me is nothing more then a insult to Matt and AR.

Let's look at the top two rookie WRs in terms of production in a Packers uniform since the year 2000:

1. James Jones - under MM and Brett Favre
2. Greg Jennings - under MM and Brett Favre

The best rookie WR to produce under Aaron Rodgers was MVS. Nelson, Cobb and Adams all had under 500 yards. Nelson and Cobb under 400 yards.

So the theory of Rodgers and MLF doesn't hold up there.

Now let's look at rookies in general under MLF since he is "so accommodating" to rookies:

2019 rookies -
Elgton Jenkins - lost the starting battle to Lane Taylor when clearly Jenkins was the better player
Jace Sternberger - was never put in the productive role

2020 rookies -
Jordan Love - was never activated on the game day 53. Was the default 3rd QB

AJ Dillon - was never given playing time. First time he received actual playing time was vs TEN due to injuries forcing the hand and he exploded on national TV. Never got the chance again. Honestly to the detriment of the Packers as he was rolling in the NFC Title game

Josiah Deguara - MLF raved about him. Gave him some playing time Week 1 but never really again. Then the injury happened. Only saw the field in 2021 after injuries forced MLF's hand.

Jon Runyan - was also held out even though fans loved him until 2021.

2021 rookies -

Josh Meyers - the only rookie to get a nod right away.

Amari Rodgers - was pulled in favor of Cobb early for punt returns...until Cobb fumbled his first punt return. Hardly saw the field. Even vs AZ hardly saw the field.

Royce Newman - saw the field due to injuries and he did beat Lucas Patrick.


So we have Josh Meyers and Royce Newman as rookies who actually got the nod. Additionally, MLF put Billy Turner at LT because he was the "safe" veteran option in both playoff losses in 2020 and 2021 which fans deem as a mistake.

I just honestly to the life of me cannot see any shred of evidence of Rodgers or MLF being more prone to "help rookies succeed early" than anyone else in the league or compared to MM like you tried to convey earlier. Your only success stories thus far are Josh Meyers and Royce Newman.

Did you miss the part when I said Michael no risk McCarthy required his new receivers to be able to run every route in the playbook prior to being able to play, that and depth is the biggest reason imo for a guy like Cobb not to get more then 30 targets as a rookie.

and just because we did that stuff back then I don't see it happening with Lafluer, give him talent and he'll use it, give him 3rd round guy like Rodgers and even then he'll try, your so wrapped up in the past as though that predicts what always will be. times change, Lafluer is a progressive coach, and he has a QB that could make anyone with talent good quickly.

[Yoop]

The man comes through again.

anyone of these guys could get a K with Rodgers in our offense.

[go pak go]

Did you miss the part when I said Michael no risk McCarthy required his new receivers to be able to run every route in the playbook prior to being able to play, that and depth is the biggest reason imo for a guy like Cobb not to get more then 30 targets as a rookie.

and just because we did that stuff back then I don't see it happening with Lafluer, give him talent and he'll use it, give him 3rd round guy like Rodgers and even then he'll try, your so wrapped up in the past as though that predicts what always will be. times change, Lafluer is a progressive coach, and he has a QB that could make anyone with talent good quickly.

Yoop, when your points are refuted with facts, data points, history, etc....on multiple fronts, it's okay to say, "oh. I didn't think of that".

You don't have to always double down and copy and paste your prior arguments. Your whole "MM made every receiver know every route", as if he is different than any other coach is just made up noise.

MLF has not been shown to play rookies at a higher propensity any more than McCarthy based on history of the two coaches. I just don't know how one can conclude that MM was "difficult route trees and never played rookies", but then say MLF is the complete of the opposite of that and league curbing when there has been nothing showing he is.

Could this year be different? Could Rodgers and MLF change from their past and accept and groom a rookie? Absolutely. But I would preface that as "hopeful-fan thinking" rather than saying these two are unlike the rest of the league and would do miles more with less than other teams. You stated any 1st round rookie could get 1,000 yards easy since Jefferson got 1,400 with Cousins. Yet history tells us no rookie hardly breaks 500 yards.

[Yoop]

seriously, why would you compare MLF to McCarthy, as though MLF has had any rookie that compares to what MCcarthy had? it's apples to oranges in the extreme.

every year we see Rookies do very well because those coaches are not like McCarthy either, when you and others sit here and tell me that MLF and Rodgers can't do what I've been saying I think your selling both short, as I said if Zimmer and Cousins can do it with Jefferson, then MLF and Rodgers can sure as hell get close to that with a guy like Olave, Wilson, Williams, Dotson, as I said the fit is why so many young receivers fail, all 4 fit what Lafluer has been doing to a tee, how often do you and others here say, ya build the system to fit the players, to often that isn't the case and the players struggle, we know thats true, and rookie receivers do get more then 500 yrds, in Lafluer receiver friendly schemes they are bound to get more, specially on this team with almost no one to keep them on the bench.

[Yoop]

Could this year be different? Could Rodgers and MLF change from their past and accept and groom a rookie? Absolutely. But I would preface that as "hopeful-fan thinking" rather than saying these two are unlike the rest of the league and would do miles more with less than other teams. You stated any 1st round rookie could get 1,000 yards easy since Jefferson got 1,400 with Cousins. Yet history tells us no rookie hardly breaks 500 yards.

quit adding and deleting to what I said, never said easy, but it certainly could happen, and quit talking this nonsense that Lafluer had a worthy rookie WR to work with, we both know that is BS, Amari Rodgers, is that some sort of joke, if we take any of these top 4 you can be sure Lafluer is going to figure out how to get production from him, you think Rodgers hung around to throw balls to Lazard? now that is a joke.

again Justin Jefferson isn't that much more talented then several in this class, and please don't hand me this Moss garbage, Randy played X, JJ made his fame from the slot, both where/are great, but if both where rookies tomorrow who would you take? plus it's a different era, different game.

[Pckfn23]

And 23 of the 45 rookie receivers who have done very well (800+ yards) since 2000 have been drafted outside the 1st round...

Justin Jefferson is 1 of 3 receivers to be an All-Pro as a rookie in the last 30 years. The other 2 were JaMarr Chase and Randy Moss.

[Yoop]

And 23 of the 45 rookie receivers who have done very well (800+ yards) since 2000 have been drafted outside the 1st round...

Justin Jefferson is 1 of 3 receivers to be an All-Pro as a rookie in the last 30 years. The other 2 were JaMarr Chase and Randy Moss.

so then 22 of 45 receivers that have done well where taken in round one.

you really don't care then about team fit, unless where talking defense, got it.

[Pckfn23]

What? I don't care about team fit unless we are talking about defense? So very lost how scheme fit has anything to do with what I posted...

[Realist]

I wonder if the stat heads on the forum could answer a question. What percentage of overall posts are either by Yoop or in response to a Yoop post? Guessing the guy generates about 40 plus percent of the traffic here.

[go pak go]

I wonder if the stat heads on the forum could answer a question. What percentage of overall posts are either by Yoop or in response to a Yoop post? Guessing the guy generates about 40 plus percent of the traffic here.

I would bet a solid 30% at least.

[Yoop]

What? I don't care about team fit unless we are talking about defense? So very lost how scheme fit has anything to do with what I posted...

scheme fit is why some rookie receivers do better then others, same thing with positions on defense, some players simply fit better then others, it's why right from the start Burks was talked about as a very good replacement player for Adams, but as this article says, just about any of the top prospects could do very well in Lafluers offense, specially with Rodgers at QB

this guy Cohen is just a intern, but this article seems pretty accurate to me.

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/pr ... draft-2022


TREYLON BURKS: GREEN BAY PACKERS
Like with the Chiefs, I can just slot any wide receiver to the Packers and call it a day. But man, can you imagine Burks in Green Bay? Not only would he get to catch passes from a back-to-back MVP, but he’d also become their most talented receiver. Sorry to Allen Lazard and Sammy Watkins truthers. Burks is the best bet to fill in the large shoes of Davante Adams, though we shouldn’t expect full replication of Adams’ production. Burks’ combination of size and speed fit exactly what the Packers need. His surprising versatility is a big bonus, too. I’ll be all over any wide receiver the Packers draft, and if that ends up being Burks, I’ll be drafting him everywhere I can.